Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zog_Jakome 01-05-08, 10:29 PM	I know in the past I have made a turn undead alternative that not many approved of. I have taken some suggestions plus some ideas of my own and made another turn undead variant. it is essentially the same thing. along with this I will give reasons for why I made these changes and also give situations for a cleric with different feats and levels fighting different undead. ... Turn undead- Level check damage and dazed First the cleric rolls to see if you affect the undead, and the undead tries to resist. The formula is as follows, essentially you are setting the DC for the undead to save against. 1d20 + cleric level + charisma mod + ˝ other turning check mods(min +1) the last modifier adds 1 for each 2 points added to normal turning check thus having 5 or more ranks in knowledge religion adds 1 to this check. The undead makes a level(HD) check 1d20 + undead HD + turn resistance If the undead fails, the undead are affected to the full extent. If the undead pass they are only partly affected and do not count against the total number of HD a cleric can affect. The cleric then rolls to see how many HD he can affect (2d6 + cleric level + charisma mod). The closest undead are effected first. Once it has been determined that and undead has been affected they take damage as follows. Damage = 1d6 per 2 cleric levels, and dazed(can’t act) for a number of rounds equal to the number of damage dice(max 10 rounds). If the undead pass or not enough HD remain to affect them they take half damage and negate the daze affect, they do not count toward the number of HD an undead can pass thus a turn attempt will hurt undead no matter what. Effects that mimic a greater turning deal 1d6 per level only if the undead failed. undead are still dazed for the same amount of damage dice. Thus a 3rd level cleric would daze a failed undead for 3 rounds with a greater turning. Empower turning multiplies the number of HD you can affect by 1.5 Heighten turning acts just as the feat suggest, adds to turning check, subtracts from number of HD affected. The radius of the effect is a 60 foot burst. ... 1. undead have a chance to resist the effect. clerics have a chance to affect undead with really high HD(since high CR undead usually have 30+HD anyway) 2. undead do not run away giving other party members a chance to do something. 3. Turn undead seems to be a positive energy explosion allowing undead very little chance to negate the effect completely, as RAW. 4. since the turn effect is limited by the number of HD affected just like RAW it would seem reasonable to keep the range at 60 feet. 5. since a turning check applies to a chart where it takes at least 3 points to affect the next level of HD, where as in my variant 1 point affects the next level of HD it would seem reasonable to divide all other turning check modifiers by 2. Any questions? a 1st level cleric with no feats helping him, he attempts a turn undead against 4 zombies and 2 skeletons. they are within 60 feet. he rolls a d20(+1[cleric level]+2[cha mod]) the result is 14 now each zombie rolls a d20(+2[HD]) the results are {10, 19, 13,19} 2 pass 2 fail each skeleton rolls a d20(+1[HD]) the results are {9, 20} 1 pass, 1 fail now the cleric rolls 2d6(+1[cleric level]+2[cha mod]) the result is 10, all the undead who failed are affected.(only 5 HD were used) now the cleric rolls 1d6(1d6 per 2 levels (minumum 1)) the result is 3. each undead who failed take 3 points of damage and are dazed for 1 round, undead who pass take 1 point of damage and are not dazed. a 5th level cleric with the sun domain attempts to turn undead using a greater turning against 5 vampire spawn and a vampire leader. A boss fight indeed. first the cleric rolls a d20(+5[cleric level]+3[cha mod]+1[other]) the result is 15(not good) the vampire spawn rolls a d20(+4[HD]+2[turn resistance]) the results are {15, 8, 23, 15, 19} only 1 failed. the vampire rolls a d20(+5[HD]+4[turn resistance]) the result is 23 he passed. now the cleric rolls 2d6(+5[cleric level]+3[cha mod]) and easily rolls high enough to affect the single failed spawn. now the cleric rolls 5d6 the result is 21 the vampire spawn takes 21 points of damage, and is dazed for 5 rounds. now the cleric rolls 2d6 the result is 8 all the undead that passed takes 4 points of damage. a 13th level cleric with the sun domain, quicken turning, and empower turning, with a 20 charisma and carries a phylactery of undead turning(which increases effective cleric level by 4 for turning purposes) attempts a greater turning vs 4 ogre zombies, 10 zombies and a Lich(11HD) the cleric rolls a d20(+17[cleric level]+5[cha mod]+1[other]-3[desecrate]) the result is 33. the zombies roll d20(+2[HD]) the highest they can roll is 22 they all fail. the ogre zombies roll d20(+8[HD]) the highest they can roll is a 28 they all fail. The Lich rolls a D20(+11[HD]+8[turn resistance(feat)]) the result is 30 he fails. the Lich has put his minions up front protecting him potentially the cleric rolls 2d6(+17[cleric level]+5[cha mod])and multiplies the result by 1.5(from empower turning) the total result is 46. all 4 of the ogres are affected(uses 32 HD) and continues on to the zombies it affects 7 of them, none others are affected. now he rolls 17d6 the result is 64, the ogre zombies and the 7 zombies are destroyed utterly. now he rolls 8d6 the result is 36. all undead remaining take 18 points of damage destroying the rest of the zombies after all, all that is left is the Lich, and a quite angry one at that. That was a free action. This is why they only get one per day, however a radiant servant of pelor gets many. this is a cleric built for undead destroying, this build would probably leave the lich left anyway under normal RAW. except for 3 zombies. :eek: a 20th level cleric with the same build as example 3 just has more levels attempts a greater turn on a DemiLich(an epic creature with 21 HD and a very high turn resistance) the cleric rolls a d20(+24[cleric level]+5[Cha mod] +1[other]) the result is 47 the demilich rolls a d20(+21[HD]+20[turn resistance]) the result is 43 it failed (it rolled VERY low). the cleric rolls 2d6(+24[cleric level]+5[cha mod]) easily has more than the demilich, he rolls 24d6 the result is 74. the demilich takes 74 points of damage and is dazed for 10 rounds. Had it passed the demilich would have taken a measly half of 14d6 points of damage(result of 25) please when Peaching don't tell me it's too difficult to understand, or that it will slow the game down. I already know that. Thank you.
Kas_the_undead 01-06-08, 07:51 PM	I love your alternative to turn/rebuke undead. I got my DM to approve it for our next session.
Zog_Jakome 01-07-08, 06:55 AM	I am glad you like it and furthermore convinced your DM to use it. need I say that this is Turn undead not rebuke undead. rebuke undead would do the opposite(as assumed), heal the undead, but since there is not much to a daze effect and not many of PC's rebuke undead, we'll do somewhat the same thing, make it be a little like the orginal rebuke undead effect. Rebuke undead(in my alternate) heals the undead for 1d6 per two levels, that is a given. However they obviously would not be dazed because that would make little sense. heal them and daze them just so the fighter can get a good whack at it. it would be under the Charm effect toward you and your allies for 10 rounds. since the differences in turn and rebuke are so large this part would have to be in there. If you have double the levels than the undead have HD they are commanded permanently. or I could do this... If the number of dice you heal to undead is enough to bring it to 0 or less (from total HP not current)then you have commanded it permanently. also it would make little sense for a 1st level evil cleric to cure the undead one round only to have it "turn" on him the next so the being rebuked for a whole minute is still in there. Thoughts? questions?
Kas_the_undead 01-07-08, 02:47 PM	By command permanently you mean towards the normal rebuke HD limit of course right, because just reading it makes it a little unclear to those who may not fully understand how it works normally. Oh and me and my DM are going to do a few turn/rebuke tests tonight just to get a feel for it and see how well it works that way when we use it in our campaine starting this week we dont have to be like. Player: "I use turn undead." DM: Ok let me log on to the forms real fast to double check it 10 minutes latter.... so anyways I'll let you know how it goes once we do use it.
Zog_Jakome 01-08-08, 08:20 AM	once undead have been commanded they are commanded permanently, I have read the section on rebuke undead over and over again to make sure. The HD limit applies to how many HD of undead you can command at one time. meaning you can have an army of undead but only able to give commands to a small number of undead in a round as a standard action meaning that he has to use his "bigger" action to command undead as opposed to casting deadly spells. the undead you command will continue doing the command until accomplished or told otherwise, meaning commands like "kill anyone who enter's this room" is never accomplished and thus continues to guard until told otherwise. spells like command undead, control undead and certain feats, class abilities allow you to exceed this limit. The rebuke is the opposite of turning, and thus so must commanding be the opposite of destroying. Since being destroyed is permanent(except for certain spells) for undead so must be the commanding of them. you know you could copy and paste the whole thing and print it. if you don't have a printer, just write it down so you don't have to keep coming back to the forums. If a discrepancy comes up simply use common sense as to what turn/rebuke undead normally does. they still counter each other when used at the same time and evil clerics can still bolster undead to give them either "secondary"(for the lack of a better word) Hit points to create a Buffer to protect them against turning, but not from other things like a sword, or spells. The second thing we could do with bolstering is treat the undead as having as many levels as you do, or the undead's HD whichever is higher, if you're lucky enough to command undead that has more HD than you. which do you think it should be -Hit point buffer -rolling on the normal chart to treat them as HD of whatever level you rolled for, like RAW is. I personally like the second option, what do you think?
Kas_the_undead 01-08-08, 03:19 PM	OMG I LOVED IT. We ran around a giant undead filled tomb in a grave yard then we added my othre friend in and we played a dread necromancer and a cleric and it made turn/rebuke undead way more exciting and fun :D I really do love you optional rules for it thanks
Zog_Jakome 01-08-08, 04:55 PM	I am glad you like it... if you are wondering here is what I think we should do with rebuke attempts... Rebuke works a little differently; rebuke heals the undead a like amount of damage there is no check to make or anything. The second effect works just like the spell command undead, if they take all of the healing the command effect works to the full effect and they get no save, non-intelligent undead never get a save and are “charmed” automatically. Undead that resist must make a level check to resist the effect just like alternate turning, however turn resistance would not help them because it is called turn resistance not rebuke resistance. If they pass they are healed half the amount of damage and negate the “charm” effect. The charm effect would last 1 minute, any action by you or apparent allies that harms it, breaks the effect for intelligent undead only, and do not follow obviously harmful commands, you do not have to do a charisma check to tell them what to do if they did not resist, If they still resisted but you still “charmed” them then you do have to do an opposed charisma check. Nonintelligent undead are under your complete control for 1 minute. They will still follow harmful actions, and no charisma check is needed. They can’t follow complex actions beyond what handle animal can do. If you have twice as many levels as the undead creature, you commanded them instead of rebuke them. They can resist the effect just like rebuking but if they give in or they fail to resist, they are commanded permanently. You can command a number of HD of undead a round equal to your level. This limit applies when you want to give undead a command(as a standard action) not commanding them in general, this limit also applies with the rebuke effect as well. Bolstering undead Undead that you have commanded or rebuked can be bolstered against further turning attempts, for the purposes of turning they are treated as having a higher HD for all effects, including the maximum HD a cleric can effect with turn undead. Roll 1d20+charisma mod on the normal chart treat the undead as having as many HD as you have effected. this effect lasts 10 rounds. There are no feats heard of that can increase the number of dice rolled so if you want you can take the following feats. Improved Rebuke Prerequisites: nongood alignment, ability to rebuke undead, effective cleric rebuking level 4 Benefit: 1/day you can use rebuke to heal the undead equal to 1d6 per level instead of 1d6 per two levels. You also command any undead you would normally rebuke. This attempt still takes a regular rebuke attempt Greater Rebuke Prerequisites: nongood alignment, ability to rebuke undead, effective cleric rebuking level 8, improved rebuke Benefit: You can do an improved rebuke a number of times per day equal to cha mod +3. You do not have to use up a regular rebuke attempt to do an improved rebuke. thoughts? questions?
Kas_the_undead 01-08-08, 08:19 PM	The only thing i don't like is using TWO feats to make it heal 1d6 every level unless its and additional amount of attempts at 1d6 along with the normal 1d6/2 levels
Zog_Jakome 01-09-08, 04:39 AM	Improved rebuke is the only thing you need to heal the undead more than normal, but you can only do it once per day. Greater rebuke would let you do it a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier +3. I did this because greater turning is a sun domain ability, and the ability to do it more times per day is a class feature of the prestige class, Radiant Servant of Pelor. I could make it like disciple of the sun and make you use two rebuke attempts to heal undead at 1d6 per level. with the feats it is easier to heal the undead with rebuke than it is to damage them with turning, because you can take feats very easily, it's a little harder to take multiple class features. also there is no effect that let's you command the undead that you would normally rebuke so I had to improvise. so yes if you had greater rebuke you have two sets of rebuke attempts, one set of normal rebuke attempts, and another set of greater rebuke attempts. if you have improved rebuke you can only do it once per day. It works just like the sun domain ability. whether or not it takes up a regular use. I am unsure for some reason whether or not using the sun domain ability uses up a daily use of regular turning.
Zog_Jakome 02-05-08, 05:20 PM	Ok it's neen about a month since I came up with this and I I have some experience using it. I realized that once you turn an undead creature it's pretty much done. so I am going to do this. for every 5 points by which you exceed the opposed check they are dazed for 1 round. if you do not beat the check by 5 points but still beat it they are slowed for 1 round. so in the examples given in post #1... in example 1 only the skeleton is dazed for 1 round, the failed zombies are slowed for one round instead of dazed. in example 2 the failed vampire spawn would be dazed for 1 round instead of 5, if the cleric rolled an 18 he would have been dazed for 2 rounds. in example 3 since no HD were left to affect the remaining undead and the ones that were affected were destroyed, no one is dazed or slowed. in example 4 the demilich would only be slowed for 1 round because the cleric did not esceed the demilich's result by 5. thoughts?