New Feat Chain: Blood Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Feat Chain: Blood Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
wolfie-kun
10-19-05, 10:18 PM Edits are in red text, just like this.
This is my first attempt at something like this, so feel free to rip my heart out and show it to me while it's still beating as you critique this stuff. If you do plan on doing something to that effect, though, please do so constructively.

The idea i had for this chain of feats was that somehow a new type of magic (called Blood Magic) erupted from one person's awesome sacrifice. These feats are very powerful, though heavily restricted. I'm only going to post three or four for now other than the prereq feat, but tell me if you want to see the other ones.

First restriction on these feats: You must take Constitution damage to use these feats. Each one requires this. This isn't normal Con damage though. It can't be healed by any means until the effects of the feat have expired (though they usually only last a few rounds anyway). Instead of healing at the rate of 1 point per day like normal, it heals at a rate of 4 per day. This advanced healing rate applies only to Con damage taken to use a blood feat; if you got Con damage from somewhere else, you heal it at the normal rate.

With no further introductory crap, here are the first couple Blood feats (Blood oath, as a Sacred Vow-type prereq, doesn't count as a blood feat):

Blood Oath
Prereqs: Con 10, Iron Will
When you use this feat, you may sacrifice up to five hit points. You gain a bonus equal to the number of hit points you sacrifice on all attack rolls you make this round.

Dark Prism
Prereqs: nongood, Con 16, ability to cast 6th level spells, Blood Oath
To use this feat, you must sacrifice a prepared spell or a spell slot for the day of 6th level or higher. On a successful ranged touch attack against your target, you deal 1d6 points of damage per level of the sacrificed spell, at a maximum range equal to 10 ft. per level of the spell. Using this feat is a full-round action that provokes A/Os. For every two points of Con damage you take, you gain one blast (you must take the damage for the first blast and each subsequent one). Each one does the same amount of damage as the first (at least dice of damage), and is a standard action to fire off (except the first, which is part of the full-round action). You may only fire one blast each round.

Red Lightning
Prereqs: Con 13, Blood Oath, and something else i can't decide on
Red lightning is a 10ft radius burst of divine energy. It deals 1d10 points of damage (half-divine, half-electrical, no save) per point of Con damage you take to everyone within a 10ft sphere centered on you.

Spiral
Prereqs: BAB +4, Con 13, Blood Oath
For every two points of Con damage you take, you increase the magic enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon you are currently wielding by +1. This bonus can also be used for natural attacks and unarmed strikes. This effect lasts a number of rounds equal to the amount of Con damage you took.

Well, that's three blood feats and the prereq feat for all of them. Once again, keep your criticisms constructive. If you're going to say that one of these feats is unbalanced, tell me why, and give me a suggestion on how to fix it. Otherwise, be kind and keep your comments to yourself.
strenoth
10-20-05, 01:34 AM so.. is it you decide how much CON damage you take then, when you use the feat?
wolfie-kun
10-20-05, 01:23 PM so.. is it you decide how much CON damage you take then, when you use the feat?

Yeah, but before any effects of the feat occur.
wolfie-kun
10-21-05, 05:29 PM over 55 views, and only one person has said anything. At least give me some sort of input here people! I didn't make the thread for you all to stare and gawk at, i want to know what you people think of these feats.
OneSidedDice
10-23-05, 07:15 PM Why can you only use one blood feat per day? If they continue along this vein (no pun intended), it seems like they're pretty disparate. So far you have one "generic" feat, and one for divine casters and one for fighter-types. It doesn't seem like it would be world-shattering to permit multiple usages. Also, is this limitation one feat per day (e.g. you pick red lightning, and you can only use red lightning for that day), or is it you pick one feat, and you can use that feat once? Either way, the limitation seems arbitrary, and it discourages characters from selecting more than one blood feat.

Why doesn't Con-increasing magic work on a character who's taken Con damage from using blood magic? Are you concerned that he'll spend the +4 Con bonus from Bear's Endurance on blood magic? What's to prevent a casting of the spell beforeuse of blood magic? Characters can still kill themselves this way.

Why can characters only use these feats below half HP? It makes them a lot less attractive. You have a character who is pretty badly banged up already, and you're requiring him to lose additional hit points in order to gain any benefit from the feat.

The prerequisite feat is really not an attractive feat, nor does it seem consistent to me. Blood Oath is worse than its prerequisite feat, Iron Will, because at least Iron Will's +2 bonus applies to all Will saves, not just those related to fear. What if you have a paladin who wants to use blood magic? He's essentially wasting a feat here..."Great, I get a +2 saving throw bonus against fear, which...I'm....already immune to. Crap." If you are going to make Blood Oath a requirement for all the other feats, it seems like it should provide some kind of benefit that relates to the use of those feats.

Why does Dark Prism require a nongood alignment? Sacrificing a spell for damage doesn't seem particularly nongood to me. Also, does the feat produce one bolt, with the option of producing additional bolts for every two Con you spend? Do you need to spend two Con points to get the first bolt? When do you pay the cost for the additional bolts? As you fire them, or all up front? What's the range on the attack?

Does Red Lightning damage the feat user? It sounds like it does. What is the Con cost associated with using the feat? It really doesn't seem like a very worthwhile feat, given that if you optimistcally assume a human character who spends his 1st-level feats on Iron Will and Blood Oath, the earliest level you could get the feat at is 3rd. Burning Con for a measly d10 really doesn't seem worth it, because by 3rd level almost any character will be able to average more damage than 1d10 without injuring themselves.

Does Spiral actually give an enhancement bonus, or did you mean to say "+1 to hit and damage"? If so, does it stack with existing masterworking or enchantment (it seems like it does, since you say "increase"). Is it considered magical (e.g. for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, or for increasing the weapon's hardness and HP)? What about characters using unarmed strikes?

It seems like you have a pretty cool idea here, but there are some loose ends.
wolfie-kun
10-23-05, 11:21 PM Why can you only use one blood feat per day? If they continue along this vein (no pun intended), it seems like they're pretty disparate. So far you have one "generic" feat, and one for divine casters and one for fighter-types. It doesn't seem like it would be world-shattering to permit multiple usages. Also, is this limitation one feat per day (e.g. you pick red lightning, and you can only use red lightning for that day), or is it you pick one feat, and you can use that feat once? Either way, the limitation seems arbitrary, and it discourages characters from selecting more than one blood feat.
It is only one feat per day, but you are right. In fact, the limitation is pretty unecessary--all the feats have a Con prereq, and you can't use them while your Con is below that. Thanks for pointing that out.
Why doesn't Con-increasing magic work on a character who's taken Con damage from using blood magic? Are you concerned that he'll spend the +4 Con bonus from Bear's Endurance on blood magic? What's to prevent a casting of the spell beforeuse of blood magic? Characters can still kill themselves this way.
This is true. Originally, a character using blood magic couldn't make his Con drop below six, but this ended up seeming like a useless restriction...oddly enough, you point out another one here.
Why can characters only use these feats below half HP? It makes them a lot less attractive. You have a character who is pretty badly banged up already, and you're requiring him to lose additional hit points in order to gain any benefit from the feat.
Simply for flavor. The whole concept of these is that they're powerful enough to make it worth it losing all those hit points...unfortunately, now that i think about it, they aren't that strong, and even if they were, most characters would just use something that has less of a drawback once they get that desperate.
The prerequisite feat is really not an attractive feat, nor does it seem consistent to me. Blood Oath is worse than its prerequisite feat, Iron Will, because at least Iron Will's +2 bonus applies to all Will saves, not just those related to fear. What if you have a paladin who wants to use blood magic? He's essentially wasting a feat here..."Great, I get a +2 saving throw bonus against fear, which...I'm....already immune to. Crap." If you are going to make Blood Oath a requirement for all the other feats, it seems like it should provide some kind of benefit that relates to the use of those feats.

At the moment, i can't think of anything that would work here...maybe a maybe something that let you sacrifice a small amount of hp for some bonus to damage or attack rolls? If you have any ideas for this, i'd love to hear them.
Why does Dark Prism require a nongood alignment? Sacrificing a spell for damage doesn't seem particularly nongood to me. Also, does the feat produce one bolt, with the option of producing additional bolts for every two Con you spend? Do you need to spend two Con points to get the first bolt? When do you pay the cost for the additional bolts? As you fire them, or all up front? What's the range on the attack?

Originally, there was another feat that did something sorta like Dark Prism, but required an arcane spell and a nonevil alignment. Now that you've pointed it out, that's not nice to do to good-aligned divine casters and evil-aligned arcane casters. They won't be able to use either feat. I'll take away the restriction on divine or arcane. Both feats will make more sense that way. You have to pay 2 pts of Con per bolt all at once, guess i didn't word that clearly enough. Range i haven't figured out, though i think 10ft. per level of the sacrificed spell sounds reasonable.
Does Red Lightning damage the feat user? It sounds like it does. What is the Con cost associated with using the feat? It really doesn't seem like a very worthwhile feat, given that if you optimistcally assume a human character who spends his 1st-level feats on Iron Will and Blood Oath, the earliest level you could get the feat at is 3rd. Burning Con for a measly d10 really doesn't seem worth it, because by 3rd level almost any character will be able to average more damage than 1d10 without injuring themselves.
The feat does not injure the user, and i left out that it deals 1d10 for each point of Con you take.
Does Spiral actually give an enhancement bonus, or did you mean to say "+1 to hit and damage"? If so, does it stack with existing masterworking or enchantment (it seems like it does, since you say "increase"). Is it considered magical (e.g. for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, or for increasing the weapon's hardness and HP)? What about characters using unarmed strikes?
Spiral increases the magic enhancement bonus of the weapon (and unarmed strikes and natural attacks count as weapons). It does stack with any existing magic enhancement bonuses, and will provide the same effects of normal magic enhancement bonuses.

Thanks for all the comments on this.
OneSidedDice
10-23-05, 11:46 PM Another point I forgot to bring up...Why the increase in healing rate for Con damage caused by these feats? It doesn't really seem consistent, and 4x the healing rate is a big boost. Maybe recovering Con damage in general at double the normal rate would be a good benefit for Blood Oath. I think Iron Will should be removed as a pre-requisite, too, to make the feats more accessible.

Is there an upper limit to the amount of Con you can spend on these feats? A healthy character who's been buffed ahead of time could drop, say, 6-10 Con with Red Lightning and seriously injure if not outright kill an important villain, knowing that he'll be able to recover from it without too much effort. This can essentially turn a potion of bear's endurance into 4d10 points of unsaveable damage.
wolfie-kun
10-24-05, 08:12 PM Another point I forgot to bring up...Why the increase in healing rate for Con damage caused by these feats? It doesn't really seem consistent, and 4x the healing rate is a big boost. Maybe recovering Con damage in general at double the normal rate would be a good benefit for Blood Oath. I think Iron Will should be removed as a pre-requisite, too, to make the feats more accessible.

Is there an upper limit to the amount of Con you can spend on these feats? A healthy character who's been buffed ahead of time could drop, say, 6-10 Con with Red Lightning and seriously injure if not outright kill an important villain, knowing that he'll be able to recover from it without too much effort. This can essentially turn a potion of bear's endurance into 4d10 points of unsaveable damage.
Once again, thanks for bringing these points up. Originally I had a cap that a character couldn't take enough Con damage to drop his hp below one, or his Con below 6, but i think a cap based on character level would work better. Double the normal healing rate sounds better too, but i'm not sure if it will keep the feats good enough for a character to want to take them.
OneSidedDice
10-24-05, 09:30 PM Even with the edit, the prerequisite feat still needs work. At low levels, HP are too precious to trade away like that. At high levels, trading 5 HP for a +5 to hit is a disproportionately good benefit. The feat is also extremely unattractive to non-fighter-types. Wizards and sorcerers, for example, will gain some benefit from it for touch spells, but most of the time it won't benefit them.

I think the caps should be feat-specific rather than generic. Not all these feats are equal in power, so it will take adjustment to determine how much Con is acceptable to spend on each.
FlameLover
10-24-05, 09:42 PM Make it require CON damage to power these abilities. This damage would only heal naturally at a rate of 1/day. And i'd change them abit so Blood Oath would give +2 to hit per CON point "spent" this way, same basic principle on each. They might seem weak but compared to the power of other feats i think that they are still usefull "last-chance" type things.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wolfie-kun 10-19-05, 10:18 PM	Edits are in red text, just like this. This is my first attempt at something like this, so feel free to rip my heart out and show it to me while it's still beating as you critique this stuff. If you do plan on doing something to that effect, though, please do so constructively. The idea i had for this chain of feats was that somehow a new type of magic (called Blood Magic) erupted from one person's awesome sacrifice. These feats are very powerful, though heavily restricted. I'm only going to post three or four for now other than the prereq feat, but tell me if you want to see the other ones. First restriction on these feats: You must take Constitution damage to use these feats. Each one requires this. This isn't normal Con damage though. It can't be healed by any means until the effects of the feat have expired (though they usually only last a few rounds anyway). Instead of healing at the rate of 1 point per day like normal, it heals at a rate of 4 per day. This advanced healing rate applies only to Con damage taken to use a blood feat; if you got Con damage from somewhere else, you heal it at the normal rate. With no further introductory crap, here are the first couple Blood feats (Blood oath, as a Sacred Vow-type prereq, doesn't count as a blood feat): Blood Oath Prereqs: Con 10, Iron Will When you use this feat, you may sacrifice up to five hit points. You gain a bonus equal to the number of hit points you sacrifice on all attack rolls you make this round. Dark Prism Prereqs: nongood, Con 16, ability to cast 6th level spells, Blood Oath To use this feat, you must sacrifice a prepared spell or a spell slot for the day of 6th level or higher. On a successful ranged touch attack against your target, you deal 1d6 points of damage per level of the sacrificed spell, at a maximum range equal to 10 ft. per level of the spell. Using this feat is a full-round action that provokes A/Os. For every two points of Con damage you take, you gain one blast (you must take the damage for the first blast and each subsequent one). Each one does the same amount of damage as the first (at least dice of damage), and is a standard action to fire off (except the first, which is part of the full-round action). You may only fire one blast each round. Red Lightning Prereqs: Con 13, Blood Oath, and something else i can't decide on Red lightning is a 10ft radius burst of divine energy. It deals 1d10 points of damage (half-divine, half-electrical, no save) per point of Con damage you take to everyone within a 10ft sphere centered on you. Spiral Prereqs: BAB +4, Con 13, Blood Oath For every two points of Con damage you take, you increase the magic enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon you are currently wielding by +1. This bonus can also be used for natural attacks and unarmed strikes. This effect lasts a number of rounds equal to the amount of Con damage you took. Well, that's three blood feats and the prereq feat for all of them. Once again, keep your criticisms constructive. If you're going to say that one of these feats is unbalanced, tell me why, and give me a suggestion on how to fix it. Otherwise, be kind and keep your comments to yourself.
strenoth 10-20-05, 01:34 AM	so.. is it you decide how much CON damage you take then, when you use the feat?
wolfie-kun 10-20-05, 01:23 PM	so.. is it you decide how much CON damage you take then, when you use the feat? Yeah, but before any effects of the feat occur.
wolfie-kun 10-21-05, 05:29 PM	over 55 views, and only one person has said anything. At least give me some sort of input here people! I didn't make the thread for you all to stare and gawk at, i want to know what you people think of these feats.
OneSidedDice 10-23-05, 07:15 PM	Why can you only use one blood feat per day? If they continue along this vein (no pun intended), it seems like they're pretty disparate. So far you have one "generic" feat, and one for divine casters and one for fighter-types. It doesn't seem like it would be world-shattering to permit multiple usages. Also, is this limitation one feat per day (e.g. you pick red lightning, and you can only use red lightning for that day), or is it you pick one feat, and you can use that feat once? Either way, the limitation seems arbitrary, and it discourages characters from selecting more than one blood feat. Why doesn't Con-increasing magic work on a character who's taken Con damage from using blood magic? Are you concerned that he'll spend the +4 Con bonus from Bear's Endurance on blood magic? What's to prevent a casting of the spell beforeuse of blood magic? Characters can still kill themselves this way. Why can characters only use these feats below half HP? It makes them a lot less attractive. You have a character who is pretty badly banged up already, and you're requiring him to lose additional hit points in order to gain any benefit from the feat. The prerequisite feat is really not an attractive feat, nor does it seem consistent to me. Blood Oath is worse than its prerequisite feat, Iron Will, because at least Iron Will's +2 bonus applies to all Will saves, not just those related to fear. What if you have a paladin who wants to use blood magic? He's essentially wasting a feat here..."Great, I get a +2 saving throw bonus against fear, which...I'm....already immune to. Crap." If you are going to make Blood Oath a requirement for all the other feats, it seems like it should provide some kind of benefit that relates to the use of those feats. Why does Dark Prism require a nongood alignment? Sacrificing a spell for damage doesn't seem particularly nongood to me. Also, does the feat produce one bolt, with the option of producing additional bolts for every two Con you spend? Do you need to spend two Con points to get the first bolt? When do you pay the cost for the additional bolts? As you fire them, or all up front? What's the range on the attack? Does Red Lightning damage the feat user? It sounds like it does. What is the Con cost associated with using the feat? It really doesn't seem like a very worthwhile feat, given that if you optimistcally assume a human character who spends his 1st-level feats on Iron Will and Blood Oath, the earliest level you could get the feat at is 3rd. Burning Con for a measly d10 really doesn't seem worth it, because by 3rd level almost any character will be able to average more damage than 1d10 without injuring themselves. Does Spiral actually give an enhancement bonus, or did you mean to say "+1 to hit and damage"? If so, does it stack with existing masterworking or enchantment (it seems like it does, since you say "increase"). Is it considered magical (e.g. for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, or for increasing the weapon's hardness and HP)? What about characters using unarmed strikes? It seems like you have a pretty cool idea here, but there are some loose ends.
wolfie-kun 10-23-05, 11:21 PM	Why can you only use one blood feat per day? If they continue along this vein (no pun intended), it seems like they're pretty disparate. So far you have one "generic" feat, and one for divine casters and one for fighter-types. It doesn't seem like it would be world-shattering to permit multiple usages. Also, is this limitation one feat per day (e.g. you pick red lightning, and you can only use red lightning for that day), or is it you pick one feat, and you can use that feat once? Either way, the limitation seems arbitrary, and it discourages characters from selecting more than one blood feat. It is only one feat per day, but you are right. In fact, the limitation is pretty unecessary--all the feats have a Con prereq, and you can't use them while your Con is below that. Thanks for pointing that out. Why doesn't Con-increasing magic work on a character who's taken Con damage from using blood magic? Are you concerned that he'll spend the +4 Con bonus from Bear's Endurance on blood magic? What's to prevent a casting of the spell beforeuse of blood magic? Characters can still kill themselves this way. This is true. Originally, a character using blood magic couldn't make his Con drop below six, but this ended up seeming like a useless restriction...oddly enough, you point out another one here. Why can characters only use these feats below half HP? It makes them a lot less attractive. You have a character who is pretty badly banged up already, and you're requiring him to lose additional hit points in order to gain any benefit from the feat. Simply for flavor. The whole concept of these is that they're powerful enough to make it worth it losing all those hit points...unfortunately, now that i think about it, they aren't that strong, and even if they were, most characters would just use something that has less of a drawback once they get that desperate. The prerequisite feat is really not an attractive feat, nor does it seem consistent to me. Blood Oath is worse than its prerequisite feat, Iron Will, because at least Iron Will's +2 bonus applies to all Will saves, not just those related to fear. What if you have a paladin who wants to use blood magic? He's essentially wasting a feat here..."Great, I get a +2 saving throw bonus against fear, which...I'm....already immune to. Crap." If you are going to make Blood Oath a requirement for all the other feats, it seems like it should provide some kind of benefit that relates to the use of those feats. At the moment, i can't think of anything that would work here...maybe a maybe something that let you sacrifice a small amount of hp for some bonus to damage or attack rolls? If you have any ideas for this, i'd love to hear them. Why does Dark Prism require a nongood alignment? Sacrificing a spell for damage doesn't seem particularly nongood to me. Also, does the feat produce one bolt, with the option of producing additional bolts for every two Con you spend? Do you need to spend two Con points to get the first bolt? When do you pay the cost for the additional bolts? As you fire them, or all up front? What's the range on the attack? Originally, there was another feat that did something sorta like Dark Prism, but required an arcane spell and a nonevil alignment. Now that you've pointed it out, that's not nice to do to good-aligned divine casters and evil-aligned arcane casters. They won't be able to use either feat. I'll take away the restriction on divine or arcane. Both feats will make more sense that way. You have to pay 2 pts of Con per bolt all at once, guess i didn't word that clearly enough. Range i haven't figured out, though i think 10ft. per level of the sacrificed spell sounds reasonable. Does Red Lightning damage the feat user? It sounds like it does. What is the Con cost associated with using the feat? It really doesn't seem like a very worthwhile feat, given that if you optimistcally assume a human character who spends his 1st-level feats on Iron Will and Blood Oath, the earliest level you could get the feat at is 3rd. Burning Con for a measly d10 really doesn't seem worth it, because by 3rd level almost any character will be able to average more damage than 1d10 without injuring themselves. The feat does not injure the user, and i left out that it deals 1d10 for each point of Con you take. Does Spiral actually give an enhancement bonus, or did you mean to say "+1 to hit and damage"? If so, does it stack with existing masterworking or enchantment (it seems like it does, since you say "increase"). Is it considered magical (e.g. for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, or for increasing the weapon's hardness and HP)? What about characters using unarmed strikes? Spiral increases the magic enhancement bonus of the weapon (and unarmed strikes and natural attacks count as weapons). It does stack with any existing magic enhancement bonuses, and will provide the same effects of normal magic enhancement bonuses. Thanks for all the comments on this.
OneSidedDice 10-23-05, 11:46 PM	Another point I forgot to bring up...Why the increase in healing rate for Con damage caused by these feats? It doesn't really seem consistent, and 4x the healing rate is a big boost. Maybe recovering Con damage in general at double the normal rate would be a good benefit for Blood Oath. I think Iron Will should be removed as a pre-requisite, too, to make the feats more accessible. Is there an upper limit to the amount of Con you can spend on these feats? A healthy character who's been buffed ahead of time could drop, say, 6-10 Con with Red Lightning and seriously injure if not outright kill an important villain, knowing that he'll be able to recover from it without too much effort. This can essentially turn a potion of bear's endurance into 4d10 points of unsaveable damage.
wolfie-kun 10-24-05, 08:12 PM	Another point I forgot to bring up...Why the increase in healing rate for Con damage caused by these feats? It doesn't really seem consistent, and 4x the healing rate is a big boost. Maybe recovering Con damage in general at double the normal rate would be a good benefit for Blood Oath. I think Iron Will should be removed as a pre-requisite, too, to make the feats more accessible. Is there an upper limit to the amount of Con you can spend on these feats? A healthy character who's been buffed ahead of time could drop, say, 6-10 Con with Red Lightning and seriously injure if not outright kill an important villain, knowing that he'll be able to recover from it without too much effort. This can essentially turn a potion of bear's endurance into 4d10 points of unsaveable damage. Once again, thanks for bringing these points up. Originally I had a cap that a character couldn't take enough Con damage to drop his hp below one, or his Con below 6, but i think a cap based on character level would work better. Double the normal healing rate sounds better too, but i'm not sure if it will keep the feats good enough for a character to want to take them.
OneSidedDice 10-24-05, 09:30 PM	Even with the edit, the prerequisite feat still needs work. At low levels, HP are too precious to trade away like that. At high levels, trading 5 HP for a +5 to hit is a disproportionately good benefit. The feat is also extremely unattractive to non-fighter-types. Wizards and sorcerers, for example, will gain some benefit from it for touch spells, but most of the time it won't benefit them. I think the caps should be feat-specific rather than generic. Not all these feats are equal in power, so it will take adjustment to determine how much Con is acceptable to spend on each.
FlameLover 10-24-05, 09:42 PM	Make it require CON damage to power these abilities. This damage would only heal naturally at a rate of 1/day. And i'd change them abit so Blood Oath would give +2 to hit per CON point "spent" this way, same basic principle on each. They might seem weak but compared to the power of other feats i think that they are still usefull "last-chance" type things.