New Feat Set: [Gestalt] [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Feat Set: [Gestalt] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Glensather
10-25-06, 12:42 AM I've been wanting to implement Gestalt characters into D&D for quite some time now, but their added durability makes it difficult to add to current campaigns I'm running. My current campaign is easy. Since it's solo, implementing 1 Gestalt character was easy and gave me more flexibility to run with, since 1 character is difficult, but I can work better with "2" (most of my campaigns have centered around low numbers of people; five at the most, and one of them dropped out after his bard died).

Also, I feel like Gestalt is simply too overpowered to run even in a campaign in which the DM has set up parameters for it. So I propose a new House Rule: The Gestalt Feats.

These feats would allow a character to add levels to his character as if he were a Gestalt character. I've come up with a few examples and the general outline below.

Gestalt Feats:
Prerequisites: Character Level 1st, Primary Statistic of Secondary Class 13 (14 if spellcaster).
Restrictions: Can only take Feat once, must be taken at first level.

Example Feat:
Gestalt Fighter [Gestalt]
You can add the Fighter class to your current class, becoming a Gestalt character and subject to all the rules for Gestalt characters as described in Unearthed Arcana.
Prerequisites: Character Level 1st, Strength OR Dexterity 13
Restrictions: This feat can only be taken at first level.
Benefit: At first level, you are treated as having a Gestalt class of X/Fighter (Where X is the other half of your mixed class). You gain the Fighter's Base Attack Bonus, Fortitude Save Bonus, Bonus Feat Progression, and weapon/armor proficiencies, assuming you do not already have better versions of each.
Special: You can only take a Gestalt feat once. Also, if your "secondary" class makes you eligable for a prestige class, you must stop your progression in that class. For example, if you qualify for Kensai, you may stop progressing as an X/Fighter and take levels in X/Kensai (you cannot become a Kensai/Fighter if your "Primary" class does not qualify). Also, if your Primary class qualifies for a prestige class at the same time, you must choose which class you want to take (For example, if you are a Rogue/Fighter and qualify for Assassin AND Kensai, you must choose which one to take). As a rule of thumb, you can only take one ten level prestige class and one five level prestige class. Prestige classes with odd numbers of levels (i.e. 13, 7, 4) are subject to DM discretion.

Gestalt Sorcerer [Gestalt]
You add the Sorcerer class to your current class, becoming a Gestalt character and subject to all the rules for Gestalt characters as described in Unearthed Arcana.
Prerequisites: Character Level 1st, Charisma 14
Restrictions: This feat can only be taken at first level.
Benefit: At first level, you are treated as having a Gestalt class of X/Sorcerer (Where X is the other half of your mixed class). You gain the Sorcerers Class Abilities, Spellcasting, and Will Save, assuming you do not have better versions of each.
Special: You can only take a Gestalt feat once. Also, if your "secondary" class makes you eligable for a prestige class, you must stop your progression in that class. For example, if you qualify for Archmage, you may stop progressing as an X/Sorcerer and take levels in X/Archmage (you cannot become an Archmage/Sorcerer if your "Primary" class does not qualify). Also, if your Primary class qualifies for a prestige class at the same time, you must choose which class you want to take (For example, if you are a Cleric/Sorcerer and qualify for Hierophant AND Archmage, you must choose which one to take). As a rule of thumb, you can only take one ten level prestige class and one five level prestige class. Prestige classes with odd numbers of levels (i.e. 13, 7, 4) are subject to DM discretion.

Gestalt Monk [Gestalt]
You add the Monk class to your current class, becoming a Gestalt character and subject to all the rules for Gestalt characters as described in Unearthed Arcana.
Prerequisites: Character Level 1st, Dexterity AND Wisdom 13
Restrictions: This feat can only be taken at first level.
Benefit: At first level, you are treated as having a Gestalt class of X/Monk (Where X is the other half of your mixed class). You gain the Monk's Class Abilities, Base Attack Bonus, and Good Saves, assuming you do not have better versions of each.
Special: You can only take a Gestalt feat once. Also, if your "secondary" class makes you eligable for a prestige class, you must stop your progression in that class. For example, if you qualify for Sacred Fist, you may stop progressing as an X/Monk and take levels in X/Sacred Fist (you cannot become a Sacred Fist/Monk if your "Primary" class does not qualify). Also, if your Primary class qualifies for a prestige class at the same time, you must choose which class you want to take (For example, if you are a Druid/Monk and quality for Sacred Fist AND Master of Many Forms, you must choose which one to take). As a rule of thumb, you can only take one ten level prestige class and one five level prestige class. Prestige classes with odd numbers of levels (i.e. 13, 7, 4) are subject to DM discretion.

-

That's my idea, anyway. Feel free to tear it apart or review it as you wish. Criticism would be nice.
Ogreman
10-25-06, 02:31 AM Um... What? Let me read it again...

So you get a second class? A feat that grants gestaltness? That is so broken I don't even want to think about it. If you're in a gestalt campaign, you don't need it, and if you aren't, it's more power than a barrel of CoDzillas.
:OMG! Also, your wording is a bit confusing. If that's not what you meant, I apoligize.
Glensather
10-25-06, 02:53 AM This is intended for use in a Gestalt campaign... sorta. The reasoning behind it is because Gestalt characters already have a lot going for them.

Let me clarify: If the DM allows Gestalt characters, he would require that you take one of these feats to do so.

Example: I am the DM. For this game, I'll allow Gestalt characters, but only if you take the prerequisite feat for it. It's sort of a counter-balance to being, say, a level 1 Human Fighter/Psychic Warrior with... like four feats. I'm taking a feat away from you because really, Gestalt > 1 Class in terms of power, and I figured that using this house rule would allow standard characters to be (almost) equal.

I've seen campaign logs where a party would have 1 Gestalt character and three standard (i.e. 1 class) characters, and the Gestalt character would run away with the campaign most of the time...
X-Codes
10-25-06, 03:19 AM Feat: Get a bonus feat and another bonus feat every even level.

That ALONE is a bad idea. You have all the other Fighter stuff in there, too.
Glensather
10-25-06, 03:34 AM That's just gestalt for you; UA clearly states that you get both class abilities. In the case of a Gestalt Fighter/Psychic Warrior, you have about 20 feats by level 20, and I'm just guessing... which is probably why the concept of Gestalt alone seems broken.

Note: This is really NO different from allowing players to Gestalt without taking a feat. The whole purpose of this feat is to make it harder for PCs to become all powerful.

For example: Without this feat, an Elven Sorcerer/Cleric has 7 feats by level 18. With this feat, they'll only be allowed six, and they have limitations placed on them. These limitations make it harder to actually become a prestige class, whereas single-class characters wouldn't have a problem distributing feats to become a prestige class.
dizfactor
10-25-06, 03:52 AM Also, I feel like Gestalt is simply too overpowered to run even in a campaign in which the DM has set up parameters for it.

Then don't use them. If you are worried that gestalt characters are too powerful, taking away a single feat isn't going to do much to correct that.

Gestalt only works if everyone's gestalt. Making people take a feat to do it is just kind of silly, since the power upgrade from standard to gestalt makes a single feat slot pale in comparison. Losing a feat isn't going to balance their abilities from gestalting - only making them deal with lots of other gestalt characters will do that.

I'm taking a feat away from you because really, Gestalt > 1 Class in terms of power, and I figured that using this house rule would allow standard characters to be (almost) equal.

That's just plain delusional. There's nothing you can do to make gestalt characters balanced with standard characters. Not a damn thing. If you want different members of your party to be balanced, they either have to all be gestalt or all be standard.

That's just gestalt for you; UA clearly states that you get both class abilities. In the case of a Gestalt Fighter/Psychic Warrior, you have about 20 feats by level 20, and I'm just guessing... which is probably why the concept of Gestalt alone seems broken.

Gestalt's not broken. It just needs to be balanced by upping the ante all around. All the PCs have to be gestalt, as do most of the major NPCs, and you have to fight tougher monsters.

There's no realistic way to half-implement it. Either you do it as suggested in UA, and you accept the fact that your PCs will be significantly more powerful than PCs in a standard game, or you don't do it at all.
Glensather
10-25-06, 03:57 AM Or... that... works too.
Leave it to me to make something up that doesn't work.

Ahh, well, I guess this really should be a lesson to me; this is the first time I've ever tried to create feats or anything, so I guess I took too much... or something.

Or it could be that it's 3:57 in the morning.
X-Codes
10-25-06, 04:04 AM Note: This is really NO different from allowing players to Gestalt without taking a feat. The whole purpose of this feat is to make it harder for PCs to become all powerful.

For example: Without this feat, an Elven Sorcerer/Cleric has 7 feats by level 18. With this feat, they'll only be allowed six, and they have limitations placed on them. These limitations make it harder to actually become a prestige class, whereas single-class characters wouldn't have a problem distributing feats to become a prestige class.
Many of the best prestige classes don't have many feat requirements, or ones that you'd take anyway. It still doesn't solve the simple power of combinations like Ranger/Wizard, Monk/Druid, or Paladin/Sorcerer, and hardly penalizes anything that just goes Fighter 20 on one side (which is almost always a viable option in Gestalt).

Simply put, Gestalt is something everyone does or nobody does, otherwise the balance of power between the characters simply shatters.
The Ultimate Dragongod
11-01-06, 09:36 AM That's just gestalt for you; UA clearly states that you get both class abilities. In the case of a Gestalt Fighter/Psychic Warrior, you have about 20 feats by level 20, and I'm just guessing...

Actually, human fighter almost always has the same amount of feats as they have levels. Therefore, a regular Fighter/Psychic Warrior would have 9 more than that (10 if he's human), which is 29-30 at 20th level.
Krusk
11-01-06, 03:29 PM Lets say im a human fighter wanting to gestalt in this game. during character creation i burn a feat, my bonus human feat to gestalt rogue. Ive got 2 feats left. Can i then burn those feats to become a 1st level human fighter/rogue/barbarian/cleric with 0 feats? seems a little silly if so.
demonsinmyhead
11-01-06, 05:09 PM That's what I was thinking. You would not be able to burn the fighter feat well..because it's a fighter feat.

But imagine this-take 2 flaws to get 2 bonus feats. Be a human for a bonus feat. That would be 4 feats. Spend them....Rogue/Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Sorceror....kinda sick huh?
dominus_casuum
11-01-06, 05:52 PM That's what I was thinking. You would not be able to burn the fighter feat well..because it's a fighter feat.

But imagine this-take 2 flaws to get 2 bonus feats. Be a human for a bonus feat. That would be 4 feats. Spend them....Rogue/Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Sorceror....kinda sick huh?Naw. Cleric/Druid/Swordsage/Monk/Ranger all the way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Glensather 10-25-06, 12:42 AM	I've been wanting to implement Gestalt characters into D&D for quite some time now, but their added durability makes it difficult to add to current campaigns I'm running. My current campaign is easy. Since it's solo, implementing 1 Gestalt character was easy and gave me more flexibility to run with, since 1 character is difficult, but I can work better with "2" (most of my campaigns have centered around low numbers of people; five at the most, and one of them dropped out after his bard died). Also, I feel like Gestalt is simply too overpowered to run even in a campaign in which the DM has set up parameters for it. So I propose a new House Rule: The Gestalt Feats. These feats would allow a character to add levels to his character as if he were a Gestalt character. I've come up with a few examples and the general outline below. Gestalt Feats: Prerequisites: Character Level 1st, Primary Statistic of Secondary Class 13 (14 if spellcaster). Restrictions: Can only take Feat once, must be taken at first level. Example Feat: Gestalt Fighter [Gestalt] You can add the Fighter class to your current class, becoming a Gestalt character and subject to all the rules for Gestalt characters as described in Unearthed Arcana. Prerequisites: Character Level 1st, Strength OR Dexterity 13 Restrictions: This feat can only be taken at first level. Benefit: At first level, you are treated as having a Gestalt class of X/Fighter (Where X is the other half of your mixed class). You gain the Fighter's Base Attack Bonus, Fortitude Save Bonus, Bonus Feat Progression, and weapon/armor proficiencies, assuming you do not already have better versions of each. Special: You can only take a Gestalt feat once. Also, if your "secondary" class makes you eligable for a prestige class, you must stop your progression in that class. For example, if you qualify for Kensai, you may stop progressing as an X/Fighter and take levels in X/Kensai (you cannot become a Kensai/Fighter if your "Primary" class does not qualify). Also, if your Primary class qualifies for a prestige class at the same time, you must choose which class you want to take (For example, if you are a Rogue/Fighter and qualify for Assassin AND Kensai, you must choose which one to take). As a rule of thumb, you can only take one ten level prestige class and one five level prestige class. Prestige classes with odd numbers of levels (i.e. 13, 7, 4) are subject to DM discretion. Gestalt Sorcerer [Gestalt] You add the Sorcerer class to your current class, becoming a Gestalt character and subject to all the rules for Gestalt characters as described in Unearthed Arcana. Prerequisites: Character Level 1st, Charisma 14 Restrictions: This feat can only be taken at first level. Benefit: At first level, you are treated as having a Gestalt class of X/Sorcerer (Where X is the other half of your mixed class). You gain the Sorcerers Class Abilities, Spellcasting, and Will Save, assuming you do not have better versions of each. Special: You can only take a Gestalt feat once. Also, if your "secondary" class makes you eligable for a prestige class, you must stop your progression in that class. For example, if you qualify for Archmage, you may stop progressing as an X/Sorcerer and take levels in X/Archmage (you cannot become an Archmage/Sorcerer if your "Primary" class does not qualify). Also, if your Primary class qualifies for a prestige class at the same time, you must choose which class you want to take (For example, if you are a Cleric/Sorcerer and qualify for Hierophant AND Archmage, you must choose which one to take). As a rule of thumb, you can only take one ten level prestige class and one five level prestige class. Prestige classes with odd numbers of levels (i.e. 13, 7, 4) are subject to DM discretion. Gestalt Monk [Gestalt] You add the Monk class to your current class, becoming a Gestalt character and subject to all the rules for Gestalt characters as described in Unearthed Arcana. Prerequisites: Character Level 1st, Dexterity AND Wisdom 13 Restrictions: This feat can only be taken at first level. Benefit: At first level, you are treated as having a Gestalt class of X/Monk (Where X is the other half of your mixed class). You gain the Monk's Class Abilities, Base Attack Bonus, and Good Saves, assuming you do not have better versions of each. Special: You can only take a Gestalt feat once. Also, if your "secondary" class makes you eligable for a prestige class, you must stop your progression in that class. For example, if you qualify for Sacred Fist, you may stop progressing as an X/Monk and take levels in X/Sacred Fist (you cannot become a Sacred Fist/Monk if your "Primary" class does not qualify). Also, if your Primary class qualifies for a prestige class at the same time, you must choose which class you want to take (For example, if you are a Druid/Monk and quality for Sacred Fist AND Master of Many Forms, you must choose which one to take). As a rule of thumb, you can only take one ten level prestige class and one five level prestige class. Prestige classes with odd numbers of levels (i.e. 13, 7, 4) are subject to DM discretion. - That's my idea, anyway. Feel free to tear it apart or review it as you wish. Criticism would be nice.
Ogreman 10-25-06, 02:31 AM	Um... What? Let me read it again... So you get a second class? A feat that grants gestaltness? That is so broken I don't even want to think about it. If you're in a gestalt campaign, you don't need it, and if you aren't, it's more power than a barrel of CoDzillas. :OMG! Also, your wording is a bit confusing. If that's not what you meant, I apoligize.
Glensather 10-25-06, 02:53 AM	This is intended for use in a Gestalt campaign... sorta. The reasoning behind it is because Gestalt characters already have a lot going for them. Let me clarify: If the DM allows Gestalt characters, he would require that you take one of these feats to do so. Example: I am the DM. For this game, I'll allow Gestalt characters, but only if you take the prerequisite feat for it. It's sort of a counter-balance to being, say, a level 1 Human Fighter/Psychic Warrior with... like four feats. I'm taking a feat away from you because really, Gestalt > 1 Class in terms of power, and I figured that using this house rule would allow standard characters to be (almost) equal. I've seen campaign logs where a party would have 1 Gestalt character and three standard (i.e. 1 class) characters, and the Gestalt character would run away with the campaign most of the time...
X-Codes 10-25-06, 03:19 AM	Feat: Get a bonus feat and another bonus feat every even level. That ALONE is a bad idea. You have all the other Fighter stuff in there, too.
Glensather 10-25-06, 03:34 AM	That's just gestalt for you; UA clearly states that you get both class abilities. In the case of a Gestalt Fighter/Psychic Warrior, you have about 20 feats by level 20, and I'm just guessing... which is probably why the concept of Gestalt alone seems broken. Note: This is really NO different from allowing players to Gestalt without taking a feat. The whole purpose of this feat is to make it harder for PCs to become all powerful. For example: Without this feat, an Elven Sorcerer/Cleric has 7 feats by level 18. With this feat, they'll only be allowed six, and they have limitations placed on them. These limitations make it harder to actually become a prestige class, whereas single-class characters wouldn't have a problem distributing feats to become a prestige class.
dizfactor 10-25-06, 03:52 AM	Also, I feel like Gestalt is simply too overpowered to run even in a campaign in which the DM has set up parameters for it. Then don't use them. If you are worried that gestalt characters are too powerful, taking away a single feat isn't going to do much to correct that. Gestalt only works if everyone's gestalt. Making people take a feat to do it is just kind of silly, since the power upgrade from standard to gestalt makes a single feat slot pale in comparison. Losing a feat isn't going to balance their abilities from gestalting - only making them deal with lots of other gestalt characters will do that. I'm taking a feat away from you because really, Gestalt > 1 Class in terms of power, and I figured that using this house rule would allow standard characters to be (almost) equal. That's just plain delusional. There's nothing you can do to make gestalt characters balanced with standard characters. Not a damn thing. If you want different members of your party to be balanced, they either have to all be gestalt or all be standard. That's just gestalt for you; UA clearly states that you get both class abilities. In the case of a Gestalt Fighter/Psychic Warrior, you have about 20 feats by level 20, and I'm just guessing... which is probably why the concept of Gestalt alone seems broken. Gestalt's not broken. It just needs to be balanced by upping the ante all around. All the PCs have to be gestalt, as do most of the major NPCs, and you have to fight tougher monsters. There's no realistic way to half-implement it. Either you do it as suggested in UA, and you accept the fact that your PCs will be significantly more powerful than PCs in a standard game, or you don't do it at all.
Glensather 10-25-06, 03:57 AM	Or... that... works too. Leave it to me to make something up that doesn't work. Ahh, well, I guess this really should be a lesson to me; this is the first time I've ever tried to create feats or anything, so I guess I took too much... or something. Or it could be that it's 3:57 in the morning.
X-Codes 10-25-06, 04:04 AM	Note: This is really NO different from allowing players to Gestalt without taking a feat. The whole purpose of this feat is to make it harder for PCs to become all powerful. For example: Without this feat, an Elven Sorcerer/Cleric has 7 feats by level 18. With this feat, they'll only be allowed six, and they have limitations placed on them. These limitations make it harder to actually become a prestige class, whereas single-class characters wouldn't have a problem distributing feats to become a prestige class. Many of the best prestige classes don't have many feat requirements, or ones that you'd take anyway. It still doesn't solve the simple power of combinations like Ranger/Wizard, Monk/Druid, or Paladin/Sorcerer, and hardly penalizes anything that just goes Fighter 20 on one side (which is almost always a viable option in Gestalt). Simply put, Gestalt is something everyone does or nobody does, otherwise the balance of power between the characters simply shatters.
The Ultimate Dragongod 11-01-06, 09:36 AM	That's just gestalt for you; UA clearly states that you get both class abilities. In the case of a Gestalt Fighter/Psychic Warrior, you have about 20 feats by level 20, and I'm just guessing... Actually, human fighter almost always has the same amount of feats as they have levels. Therefore, a regular Fighter/Psychic Warrior would have 9 more than that (10 if he's human), which is 29-30 at 20th level.
Krusk 11-01-06, 03:29 PM	Lets say im a human fighter wanting to gestalt in this game. during character creation i burn a feat, my bonus human feat to gestalt rogue. Ive got 2 feats left. Can i then burn those feats to become a 1st level human fighter/rogue/barbarian/cleric with 0 feats? seems a little silly if so.
demonsinmyhead 11-01-06, 05:09 PM	That's what I was thinking. You would not be able to burn the fighter feat well..because it's a fighter feat. But imagine this-take 2 flaws to get 2 bonus feats. Be a human for a bonus feat. That would be 4 feats. Spend them....Rogue/Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Sorceror....kinda sick huh?
dominus_casuum 11-01-06, 05:52 PM	That's what I was thinking. You would not be able to burn the fighter feat well..because it's a fighter feat. But imagine this-take 2 flaws to get 2 bonus feats. Be a human for a bonus feat. That would be 4 feats. Spend them....Rogue/Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Sorceror....kinda sick huh?Naw. Cleric/Druid/Swordsage/Monk/Ranger all the way.