New Form Of Spell Failure [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Form Of Spell Failure [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
blowfish
06-19-07, 07:32 PM I don't really like that when you fail to attack someone you have a chance of doing something really bad(crit fail 1), but yet not the same when failing to cast a spell, when it should be far more harmful to fail a spellcasting. I'd like some ideas on how to handle a failed spell doing a different effect instead of just fizzling. It would make casters pretty interesting, for that reason. I'd also want some ideas for ways that divine casters could get similar effects without changing the fact that they normally don't get spell failure, such as if they were in a place belonging to an apposing god. Thanks in advance for the help.
Krusk
06-19-07, 07:51 PM you dont always do something really bad when you fail an attack when you roll a 1. You simply miss. Anything else is a houserule.

My suggestion for you to balance out the fact that fighters have to deal with crit miss and mages dont would be to not use crit misses with fumbles.

If you really want to keep it, apply the exact same penalties to casters that you do to melee. I dont know your system, but it could be easy. Roll a 1 toss your sword, roll a 1 toss your components.
Rhialto
06-20-07, 03:18 AM Critical fumbles (as opposed to simple missing/fizzles) are a bad idea. The only exception is if there is a chance of a fumble brought about by an intentional overstretch by the PC.
blowfish
06-20-07, 03:17 PM Wow, I guess I shouldn't have thanked in advance. Telling me it's a bad idea doesn't help my situation at all. Anybody wish to actually give ideas instead of criticism?
trapspringer
06-20-07, 04:03 PM Yea, here's an idea: Listen to the above posters.

Fighters have unlimited attacks. They aren't limited to 4 attacks at their highest BAB a day.

Casters already suffer significantly from a miscast. Every time they miscast it's like they not only dropped, but lost their sword.

If you really want some kind of dynamic miscast system, why not generate a table of a series of first level equivalent spell effects. Anytime a caster miscasts, roll on the table.

Be sure that the table is genuinely random and only as powerful as first level spells. It should include a wide array of effects both beneficial and detrimental. If you want to get really in-depth, generate a different list for each school.

In any event the effect should be considered to be of the school and descriptor of the botched spell.

01-02 target gains 2d4 temporary HP
03-04 grass sprouts from the bottom of target's feat (balance DC10 or fall prone when running or charging)
05-06 target emits light as if effected by the spell light
07-08 target's hair falls out and animates, behaving as a celestial monkey summoned by the target (as if with summon monster I)
09-10 a 20-ft line of smoke shoots forth from the caster's outstretched hands providing 20% concealment along that line for the next 3 rounds.
11-12 target levitates two feet off the ground and is unable to move (but is not helpless and may still act) until the caster's next turn.
13-14 all buttons and fasteners on target's clothing teleport five feet to the left
15-16 target's skin becomes coarse and craggy, granting DR 5/pitons, but imposing a -2 penalty to dexterity, this effect lasts one round.
17-18 target gains a natural bite attack as a creature two size categories larger than himself for the next two rounds.
19-20 for the next two rounds, target creature is terrified to speak. A DC 15 will save is required to speak or cast spells with verbal components.
21-22 target's joints pop and creak unnaturally with every movement imposing a -4 penalty on move silently checks.
23-24 target's shoe laces become interwoven (if target' shoes didn't have laces before, they do now). Shoe laces have 3 hit points, a hardness of 0, and a break DC of 12.
25-26 target gains a +2 bonus to strength for the next three rounds.
27-28 target is surrounded by hundreds of luminous, rainbow-colored butterflies and gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC. This bonus stacks with other bonuses of the same kind.
29-30 target's legs become springs. He gains the leap attack feat (even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites) and a +10 competence bonus on jump checks for the next two rounds.
31-32 target is cured of two points of ability damage
etc.

Remember that a lot of the spells in D&D are intended for friendly targets. You should include both positive and negative effects on your chart to account for those instances and instances when the player is, in fact, attacking.

EDIT: to elaborate, they should be of the school and descriptor of the miscast spell to prevent anyone from gaining access to a prestige class whose entry requirements they wouldn't ordinarily meet. It should be of first level to prevent that same abuse as well as to maintain some semblance of balance and, from a DM's perspective, control over the goings on of your game.
blowfish
06-20-07, 08:45 PM Well that kind of helps, so I'll thank you. I just wanted something in there to spice up a failed spell, but not so bad it would make players not want to even play spellcasters. Maybe the idea just sounds better in my head than it would actually be. My campaign setting has magic as a mostly unknown thing; a power that can be reshaped and redirected, but never truly harnessed. Thus, I wanted the magic system to reflect that at least a bit.
Krusk
06-21-07, 01:25 AM I thought my third point covered what my suggestion was.

If you are going to ask for suggestions, please do not get angry when you dont like the suggestions.

Also if you wanted something really interesting maybe you could roll on the rod of wonder table, or roll for the deck of many things to happen. Both are pretty intense, but it could be interesting.
Rhialto
06-21-07, 04:05 AM ok, imagine the equivalent suystem for fighters. The make an attack roll, get a 1, and accidentally hack the party mage's leg off.

Simply missing or having the spell fizzle is penalty enough in an encounter with an appropriate challenge rating.

In my spell casting variant, casters have a mana pool, and spells can misfire if they accidentally drain the entire pool (spells cost a variable amount of man by dice rolls to cast). In that system, they can play it safe, or take risks an overstretch their mana, so critical fumbles are built into the overstretch concept.

I'm not sure how you could integrate critical fumbles into the default d20 magic system and include the concept of pushing yourself to the limits of your ability.
enlightened
06-21-07, 07:06 AM DM: Hey, guys, look at this new critical fumble chart I worked up over the weekend :D

Players: :bored:

DM: Guys? Hey, guys? Where are you going, guys? :confused:
Rustmonster
06-21-07, 07:34 PM I don't really like that when you fail to attack someone you have a chance of doing something really bad(crit fail 1), but yet not the same when failing to cast a spell, when it should be far more harmful to fail a spellcasting. I'd like some ideas on how to handle a failed spell doing a different effect instead of just fizzling. It would make casters pretty interesting, for that reason. I'd also want some ideas for ways that divine casters could get similar effects without changing the fact that they normally don't get spell failure, such as if they were in a place belonging to an apposing god. Thanks in advance for the help.

One, from what you are saying, it sounds like you use a fumble system for attacks. Don't. Missing is bad enough. Plus, it makes it that the more experianced someone is, and therefore the more attacks they get, the more likely they are to kill themselves. Fumbles are not part of the core rules, although thye have suggestions for it as an option in the DMG, but it's still pretty dumb.

Second, fumbles arn't fun at all, for attacks or magic. It makes it harder for players specificly, because while an enemy lives for 1 encounter, the PCs will have to go through many more, so it only hurts PCs. Plus, they don't make sense. "I am the most powerful mage/warrior in the lands! Muahahahaha!... but, umm, for some reason I still kill myself 5% of the time when I attack/cast a spell."

Some people in on this thread are trying to help you see that there really doesn't need to be another penalty for a failing an attack/spell than it just not working. Don't get huffy when they try to give you opinions.
shout27
06-21-07, 07:44 PM If you really want to introduce something like that give the wizards an option of "True Wild Magic" to bump up their CL +2 to give them a reason to want such a thing.
trapspringer
06-21-07, 09:18 PM Second, fumbles arn't fun at all, for attacks or magic.

Erm, maybe. Well, I mean definitely. Fumbles suck. They are a bad variant.

But magical variants could be funny.
shout27
06-21-07, 09:23 PM But magical variants could be funny.

until you rend open Time/Space with a failed Level 9 Spell.
trapspringer
06-21-07, 09:32 PM until you rend open Time/Space with a failed Level 9 Spell.

...then it's just hilarious.
shout27
06-21-07, 10:19 PM and if your character were to be caught in the "friendly fire" 100-mile radius blast of NO SAVE disintegration?
trapspringer
06-22-07, 01:32 PM I'd thank my lucky stripes that, as a level 20 caster, I had a contingency for just such an occasion.

Besides, I wouldn't argue for something so grossly world-altering. It'd make campaign continuity... difficult.

On a meta-discussion level, you are assuming a set of circumstances which don't necessarily have to be in place. Your entire argument is contingent upon those circumstances. You might want to re-evaluate your position given these facts.
shout27
06-22-07, 04:12 PM Sorry, I tend to go for the absolute worst/nastiest result possible.

However, I think such a result would be easily plausible with a Fumbled Wish.
trapspringer
06-22-07, 06:32 PM That's logical, but it is by no means necessarily logical. In this respect it isn't actually a compelling reason not to implement any crit-failure variant for spell casting, only a compelling argument not to include effects that mimic an uncontrolled nuclear reaction.

It's also worth notin' that Wish already backfires in ways both unjust and unavoidable.
True Cavalier
06-22-07, 08:00 PM I'd thank my lucky stripes that, as a level 20 caster, I had a contingency for just such an occasion.

DM: "Sorry, the spell that caused the rift in the first place is the Contingency for that situation." :P

Anyway: Critical fumbles: Bad idea. Critical fumbles for magic: Doubly so. In fact I rank it up there with DMs who don't let players aim fireballs accurately and end up killing their own party members.
trapspringer
06-22-07, 08:03 PM DM: "Sorry, the spell that caused the rift in the first place is the Contingency for that situation." :P

I'd so totally do that to my players, too. ****, now I'm gunna' be running this variant just so I can do that.
blowfish
06-22-07, 08:05 PM wow, I got way more responses then I expected. well, I've decided to not try to develop any spell corruption rules or charts as I already penalise the casters in my campaign setting enough( no magic shops, so players have to work with what they find or make themselves and most people in the world can't even learn to cast magic ).
shout27
06-23-07, 01:17 AM I'd so totally do that to my players, too. ****, now I'm gunna' be running this variant just so I can do that.

Oh no, what have i unleashed upon those unsuspecting players?

And by the way, the whole reason wizards are loners is not because they need the space or like hermitism, but because their suppliers refuse to be caught in the blast radius. Thus, they charge a wizard 3x per page the GP of the materials needed, reducing the price by 1 GP per mile that he/she lives away from town.
blowfish
06-29-07, 02:14 PM Sorry for any nastiness you all might have thought my words described, my lesson learned is to never post anything when I have a headache.
ShinoAburame
06-29-07, 02:19 PM Here's a potential system I just thoughtup.

All spells have a 5% chance of critical failure (IE: rolling a 1 on a d20)

You can avoid taking this gamble with your spells by expending HP equal to the spell's level. (lvl 0=none required, lvl 9=9 hp)

This inturn makes it more difficult because either your spells might fail or you have to strain yourself to stay maximum efficient.

Ofcourse this really only effects arcane casters because they innately have low hit die, but then divine casters are so broken nothing short of doing something to single them out would do.

I think saying the fighter is balanced because he has unlimited attacks is a load of bullcrap. Last I checked if you come across a troll or something, unlimited attacks won't mean crap (unless it's a magic weapon) the best crafted sword in the world won't hold a candle to the awesome power of a well-placed fireball.
ShinoAburame
06-29-07, 02:24 PM DM: Hey, guys, look at this new critical fumble chart I worked up over the weekend :D

Players: :bored:

DM: Guys? Hey, guys? Where are you going, guys? :confused:
Apparently those players have been playing too much Magic: The Gathering and not enough real rpgs...
Krusk
06-30-07, 04:54 AM Apparently those players have been playing too much Magic: The Gathering and not enough real rpgs...

1- Magic does not have crit fumbles.
2- I've never heard anyone say magic was an rpg.
zzo38
06-30-07, 01:38 PM I also invented one: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/ImprovedUnearthedArcana/SpellFailure.htm If you want to, you can increase the amount of your ability score required to be 100% successful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
blowfish 06-19-07, 07:32 PM	I don't really like that when you fail to attack someone you have a chance of doing something really bad(crit fail 1), but yet not the same when failing to cast a spell, when it should be far more harmful to fail a spellcasting. I'd like some ideas on how to handle a failed spell doing a different effect instead of just fizzling. It would make casters pretty interesting, for that reason. I'd also want some ideas for ways that divine casters could get similar effects without changing the fact that they normally don't get spell failure, such as if they were in a place belonging to an apposing god. Thanks in advance for the help.
Krusk 06-19-07, 07:51 PM	you dont always do something really bad when you fail an attack when you roll a 1. You simply miss. Anything else is a houserule. My suggestion for you to balance out the fact that fighters have to deal with crit miss and mages dont would be to not use crit misses with fumbles. If you really want to keep it, apply the exact same penalties to casters that you do to melee. I dont know your system, but it could be easy. Roll a 1 toss your sword, roll a 1 toss your components.
Rhialto 06-20-07, 03:18 AM	Critical fumbles (as opposed to simple missing/fizzles) are a bad idea. The only exception is if there is a chance of a fumble brought about by an intentional overstretch by the PC.
blowfish 06-20-07, 03:17 PM	Wow, I guess I shouldn't have thanked in advance. Telling me it's a bad idea doesn't help my situation at all. Anybody wish to actually give ideas instead of criticism?
trapspringer 06-20-07, 04:03 PM	Yea, here's an idea: Listen to the above posters. Fighters have unlimited attacks. They aren't limited to 4 attacks at their highest BAB a day. Casters already suffer significantly from a miscast. Every time they miscast it's like they not only dropped, but lost their sword. If you really want some kind of dynamic miscast system, why not generate a table of a series of first level equivalent spell effects. Anytime a caster miscasts, roll on the table. Be sure that the table is genuinely random and only as powerful as first level spells. It should include a wide array of effects both beneficial and detrimental. If you want to get really in-depth, generate a different list for each school. In any event the effect should be considered to be of the school and descriptor of the botched spell. 01-02 target gains 2d4 temporary HP 03-04 grass sprouts from the bottom of target's feat (balance DC10 or fall prone when running or charging) 05-06 target emits light as if effected by the spell light 07-08 target's hair falls out and animates, behaving as a celestial monkey summoned by the target (as if with summon monster I) 09-10 a 20-ft line of smoke shoots forth from the caster's outstretched hands providing 20% concealment along that line for the next 3 rounds. 11-12 target levitates two feet off the ground and is unable to move (but is not helpless and may still act) until the caster's next turn. 13-14 all buttons and fasteners on target's clothing teleport five feet to the left 15-16 target's skin becomes coarse and craggy, granting DR 5/pitons, but imposing a -2 penalty to dexterity, this effect lasts one round. 17-18 target gains a natural bite attack as a creature two size categories larger than himself for the next two rounds. 19-20 for the next two rounds, target creature is terrified to speak. A DC 15 will save is required to speak or cast spells with verbal components. 21-22 target's joints pop and creak unnaturally with every movement imposing a -4 penalty on move silently checks. 23-24 target's shoe laces become interwoven (if target' shoes didn't have laces before, they do now). Shoe laces have 3 hit points, a hardness of 0, and a break DC of 12. 25-26 target gains a +2 bonus to strength for the next three rounds. 27-28 target is surrounded by hundreds of luminous, rainbow-colored butterflies and gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC. This bonus stacks with other bonuses of the same kind. 29-30 target's legs become springs. He gains the leap attack feat (even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites) and a +10 competence bonus on jump checks for the next two rounds. 31-32 target is cured of two points of ability damage etc. Remember that a lot of the spells in D&D are intended for friendly targets. You should include both positive and negative effects on your chart to account for those instances and instances when the player is, in fact, attacking. EDIT: to elaborate, they should be of the school and descriptor of the miscast spell to prevent anyone from gaining access to a prestige class whose entry requirements they wouldn't ordinarily meet. It should be of first level to prevent that same abuse as well as to maintain some semblance of balance and, from a DM's perspective, control over the goings on of your game.
blowfish 06-20-07, 08:45 PM	Well that kind of helps, so I'll thank you. I just wanted something in there to spice up a failed spell, but not so bad it would make players not want to even play spellcasters. Maybe the idea just sounds better in my head than it would actually be. My campaign setting has magic as a mostly unknown thing; a power that can be reshaped and redirected, but never truly harnessed. Thus, I wanted the magic system to reflect that at least a bit.
Krusk 06-21-07, 01:25 AM	I thought my third point covered what my suggestion was. If you are going to ask for suggestions, please do not get angry when you dont like the suggestions. Also if you wanted something really interesting maybe you could roll on the rod of wonder table, or roll for the deck of many things to happen. Both are pretty intense, but it could be interesting.
Rhialto 06-21-07, 04:05 AM	ok, imagine the equivalent suystem for fighters. The make an attack roll, get a 1, and accidentally hack the party mage's leg off. Simply missing or having the spell fizzle is penalty enough in an encounter with an appropriate challenge rating. In my spell casting variant, casters have a mana pool, and spells can misfire if they accidentally drain the entire pool (spells cost a variable amount of man by dice rolls to cast). In that system, they can play it safe, or take risks an overstretch their mana, so critical fumbles are built into the overstretch concept. I'm not sure how you could integrate critical fumbles into the default d20 magic system and include the concept of pushing yourself to the limits of your ability.
enlightened 06-21-07, 07:06 AM	DM: Hey, guys, look at this new critical fumble chart I worked up over the weekend :D Players: :bored: DM: Guys? Hey, guys? Where are you going, guys? :confused:
Rustmonster 06-21-07, 07:34 PM	I don't really like that when you fail to attack someone you have a chance of doing something really bad(crit fail 1), but yet not the same when failing to cast a spell, when it should be far more harmful to fail a spellcasting. I'd like some ideas on how to handle a failed spell doing a different effect instead of just fizzling. It would make casters pretty interesting, for that reason. I'd also want some ideas for ways that divine casters could get similar effects without changing the fact that they normally don't get spell failure, such as if they were in a place belonging to an apposing god. Thanks in advance for the help. One, from what you are saying, it sounds like you use a fumble system for attacks. Don't. Missing is bad enough. Plus, it makes it that the more experianced someone is, and therefore the more attacks they get, the more likely they are to kill themselves. Fumbles are not part of the core rules, although thye have suggestions for it as an option in the DMG, but it's still pretty dumb. Second, fumbles arn't fun at all, for attacks or magic. It makes it harder for players specificly, because while an enemy lives for 1 encounter, the PCs will have to go through many more, so it only hurts PCs. Plus, they don't make sense. "I am the most powerful mage/warrior in the lands! Muahahahaha!... but, umm, for some reason I still kill myself 5% of the time when I attack/cast a spell." Some people in on this thread are trying to help you see that there really doesn't need to be another penalty for a failing an attack/spell than it just not working. Don't get huffy when they try to give you opinions.
shout27 06-21-07, 07:44 PM	If you really want to introduce something like that give the wizards an option of "True Wild Magic" to bump up their CL +2 to give them a reason to want such a thing.
trapspringer 06-21-07, 09:18 PM	Second, fumbles arn't fun at all, for attacks or magic. Erm, maybe. Well, I mean definitely. Fumbles suck. They are a bad variant. But magical variants could be funny.
shout27 06-21-07, 09:23 PM	But magical variants could be funny. until you rend open Time/Space with a failed Level 9 Spell.
trapspringer 06-21-07, 09:32 PM	until you rend open Time/Space with a failed Level 9 Spell. ...then it's just hilarious.
shout27 06-21-07, 10:19 PM	and if your character were to be caught in the "friendly fire" 100-mile radius blast of NO SAVE disintegration?
trapspringer 06-22-07, 01:32 PM	I'd thank my lucky stripes that, as a level 20 caster, I had a contingency for just such an occasion. Besides, I wouldn't argue for something so grossly world-altering. It'd make campaign continuity... difficult. On a meta-discussion level, you are assuming a set of circumstances which don't necessarily have to be in place. Your entire argument is contingent upon those circumstances. You might want to re-evaluate your position given these facts.
shout27 06-22-07, 04:12 PM	Sorry, I tend to go for the absolute worst/nastiest result possible. However, I think such a result would be easily plausible with a Fumbled Wish.
trapspringer 06-22-07, 06:32 PM	That's logical, but it is by no means necessarily logical. In this respect it isn't actually a compelling reason not to implement any crit-failure variant for spell casting, only a compelling argument not to include effects that mimic an uncontrolled nuclear reaction. It's also worth notin' that Wish already backfires in ways both unjust and unavoidable.
True Cavalier 06-22-07, 08:00 PM	I'd thank my lucky stripes that, as a level 20 caster, I had a contingency for just such an occasion. DM: "Sorry, the spell that caused the rift in the first place is the Contingency for that situation." :P Anyway: Critical fumbles: Bad idea. Critical fumbles for magic: Doubly so. In fact I rank it up there with DMs who don't let players aim fireballs accurately and end up killing their own party members.
trapspringer 06-22-07, 08:03 PM	DM: "Sorry, the spell that caused the rift in the first place is the Contingency for that situation." :P I'd so totally do that to my players, too. ****, now I'm gunna' be running this variant just so I can do that.
blowfish 06-22-07, 08:05 PM	wow, I got way more responses then I expected. well, I've decided to not try to develop any spell corruption rules or charts as I already penalise the casters in my campaign setting enough( no magic shops, so players have to work with what they find or make themselves and most people in the world can't even learn to cast magic ).
shout27 06-23-07, 01:17 AM	I'd so totally do that to my players, too. ****, now I'm gunna' be running this variant just so I can do that. Oh no, what have i unleashed upon those unsuspecting players? And by the way, the whole reason wizards are loners is not because they need the space or like hermitism, but because their suppliers refuse to be caught in the blast radius. Thus, they charge a wizard 3x per page the GP of the materials needed, reducing the price by 1 GP per mile that he/she lives away from town.
blowfish 06-29-07, 02:14 PM	Sorry for any nastiness you all might have thought my words described, my lesson learned is to never post anything when I have a headache.
ShinoAburame 06-29-07, 02:19 PM	Here's a potential system I just thoughtup. All spells have a 5% chance of critical failure (IE: rolling a 1 on a d20) You can avoid taking this gamble with your spells by expending HP equal to the spell's level. (lvl 0=none required, lvl 9=9 hp) This inturn makes it more difficult because either your spells might fail or you have to strain yourself to stay maximum efficient. Ofcourse this really only effects arcane casters because they innately have low hit die, but then divine casters are so broken nothing short of doing something to single them out would do. I think saying the fighter is balanced because he has unlimited attacks is a load of bullcrap. Last I checked if you come across a troll or something, unlimited attacks won't mean crap (unless it's a magic weapon) the best crafted sword in the world won't hold a candle to the awesome power of a well-placed fireball.
ShinoAburame 06-29-07, 02:24 PM	DM: Hey, guys, look at this new critical fumble chart I worked up over the weekend :D Players: :bored: DM: Guys? Hey, guys? Where are you going, guys? :confused: Apparently those players have been playing too much Magic: The Gathering and not enough real rpgs...
Krusk 06-30-07, 04:54 AM	Apparently those players have been playing too much Magic: The Gathering and not enough real rpgs... 1- Magic does not have crit fumbles. 2- I've never heard anyone say magic was an rpg.
zzo38 06-30-07, 01:38 PM	I also invented one: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/ImprovedUnearthedArcana/SpellFailure.htm If you want to, you can increase the amount of your ability score required to be 100% successful.