New Houserule Re: Turning [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Houserule Re: Turning [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
strenoth
09-13-06, 08:50 PM The biggest complain I've heard about turning is that while useful for the first few levels, it rapidly becomes useless, especially against thing slike skeletons and zombies.

a CR8 Skeleton has 19 HD, so in the current rules set, a level 16 Cleric, who would no longer even be getting XP for it, has a roughly 25% change of failing to turn it (depending on CHA and feats), and can't dust it until 38th Level!

My proposal is: add 1/2 of your ranks in Knowledge (religion) to your turning level. So, a level 16 cleric with max ranks has a turning level of 16 + (19/2), which equals 25.

Garunteed to turn that CR8 skeleton, but even so, can't dust it until 25th level.

perhaps some where in epic levels, make a feat that adds your total ranks in Knowledge(religion) to your turning level?

This is something I've only thought about recently, so please give me thoughts & feedback.
Seerow
09-13-06, 09:57 PM Why not just make turning based off CR rather than HD?
Thelon Fairblade
09-13-06, 10:02 PM Intersting point. But... higher level undead don't have as many HD as a skeleton of the same CR. Vampires, for example, might have 9 HD and be CR 9 -- a definite target for the cleric's Turn Undead.

Likewise, critters like Necropolitans and liches -- cr +2 on top of class levels. So Lich Wizard 12 = CR 14. Cleric 14 executing a Turn Undead won't dust him, but will Turn him a lot of the time (10+ without mods).

SO don't bother with the CR 8, 30 HD skeleton. You're 14th level... go do something else.
Tequila_Sunrise
09-14-06, 12:52 AM Why not just make turning based off CR rather than HD?

I would suggest using the turning variant from CD: 1d6 damage in a 30 ft spread; will save = 10 + cleric level + Cha.

But Seerow's is a great and simpler option if you prefer traditional turning.
Oneiros
09-14-06, 07:10 PM I would suggest using the turning variant from CD: 1d6 damage in a 30 ft spread; will save = 10 + cleric level + Cha.
Even that variant doesn't totally address the disparity between CR and HD that strenoth mentions. There a successful Will save results in 1/2 damage, but higher HD means a higher save, in addition to more HP. So a CR 9 skeleton is still tougher than a CR 9 vampire.

I use a damage-based turning variant (home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/index.html#TurningUndead) in my own game, which adds Turn Resistance to the creature's Will save, and offers better protection against the damage (TR 2 and TR 4 offer 5 and 10 points of DR respectively against turn attempts). Skeletons and Zombies, however, have Turn Susceptability, suffering a -2 and -4 respectively to their Will Save vs Turning Damage, increasing the likelyhood that they will take full damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
strenoth 09-13-06, 08:50 PM	The biggest complain I've heard about turning is that while useful for the first few levels, it rapidly becomes useless, especially against thing slike skeletons and zombies. a CR8 Skeleton has 19 HD, so in the current rules set, a level 16 Cleric, who would no longer even be getting XP for it, has a roughly 25% change of failing to turn it (depending on CHA and feats), and can't dust it until 38th Level! My proposal is: add 1/2 of your ranks in Knowledge (religion) to your turning level. So, a level 16 cleric with max ranks has a turning level of 16 + (19/2), which equals 25. Garunteed to turn that CR8 skeleton, but even so, can't dust it until 25th level. perhaps some where in epic levels, make a feat that adds your total ranks in Knowledge(religion) to your turning level? This is something I've only thought about recently, so please give me thoughts & feedback.
Seerow 09-13-06, 09:57 PM	Why not just make turning based off CR rather than HD?
Thelon Fairblade 09-13-06, 10:02 PM	Intersting point. But... higher level undead don't have as many HD as a skeleton of the same CR. Vampires, for example, might have 9 HD and be CR 9 -- a definite target for the cleric's Turn Undead. Likewise, critters like Necropolitans and liches -- cr +2 on top of class levels. So Lich Wizard 12 = CR 14. Cleric 14 executing a Turn Undead won't dust him, but will Turn him a lot of the time (10+ without mods). SO don't bother with the CR 8, 30 HD skeleton. You're 14th level... go do something else.
Tequila_Sunrise 09-14-06, 12:52 AM	Why not just make turning based off CR rather than HD? I would suggest using the turning variant from CD: 1d6 damage in a 30 ft spread; will save = 10 + cleric level + Cha. But Seerow's is a great and simpler option if you prefer traditional turning.
Oneiros 09-14-06, 07:10 PM	I would suggest using the turning variant from CD: 1d6 damage in a 30 ft spread; will save = 10 + cleric level + Cha. Even that variant doesn't totally address the disparity between CR and HD that strenoth mentions. There a successful Will save results in 1/2 damage, but higher HD means a higher save, in addition to more HP. So a CR 9 skeleton is still tougher than a CR 9 vampire. I use a damage-based turning variant (home.comcast.net/~joemoon5/tian/index.html#TurningUndead) in my own game, which adds Turn Resistance to the creature's Will save, and offers better protection against the damage (TR 2 and TR 4 offer 5 and 10 points of DR respectively against turn attempts). Skeletons and Zombies, however, have Turn Susceptability, suffering a -2 and -4 respectively to their Will Save vs Turning Damage, increasing the likelyhood that they will take full damage.