Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Goken100 09-19-04, 11:39 AM	The main goal of this rule variant to allow characters to improve their skill in defending themselves without increasing HP. I want to do this without changing the balance of the D&D game that Wizards has so carefully built. This rule variant was a long time in the making, and went through many changes and incarnations. I have researched other variants, including those in Unearthed Arcana, and finally have come up with a shockingly simple but effective solution to the problem. Damage from Hits in Battle It is ridiculous to score resounding hit and then roll a 1 on a 12-sided die for damage if the character scored the hit by a margin of 15. Therefore the use of this chart will make for more skill-based damage (note that only a portion of the chart is shown here). Damage Based on Amount of Hit Amount of Hit 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Damage 1d2 0 1 1 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 1d3 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 9 9 10 10 11 11 1d4 1 1 2 3 4 4 5 6 6 7 8 9 9 10 11 11 12 13 14 14 1d6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 1d8 1 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 12 13 14 15 17 18 19 21 22 23 24 26 1d10 2 3 5 6 8 9 11 13 14 16 17 19 20 22 24 25 27 28 30 31 1d12 2 4 6 7 9 11 13 15 17 19 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 33 35 37 1d20 3 6 9 12 15 18 21 24 27 30 33 36 39 42 45 48 51 54 57 60 Defensive Skill in Battle Represented by Higher Defense, not Growing HP Hit points will be Constitution plus Strength. When constitution is used up, strength begins to fall and you get weaker (Constitution checks will not be hurt much if at all by damaged constitution). HPs will not increase with increased leveling. Instead, defensive bonuses will be given from two new sources. A class’s base Reflex saving throw will now also be an Avoidance bonus to AC. Half of a character’s active attack bonus (round down) will be added to AC as a blocking bonus. All AC bonuses except for those from armor are considered “active defense”. Note that base AC is now 5 instead of 10. Note that active defense may not be applied as easily against range weapons. Active defense is at -2 against missile weapons and magic attacks and -1 against medium or larger thrown weapons. However, any Armor bonus from a shield is doubled against these attacks. Battle Rules 1. Gangin Up Characters now get progressively harder to hit rather than getting better at sustaining damage. Strategy may be necessary in order to overcome skilled opponents. a. Target gets cumulative –2 active defense after each attack by a separate attacker per round. b. This penalty apply to uses of the Reflexes saving throw later in the round as well, and uses of the Reflex saving throw give the same –2 penalty to defensive actions that happen afterward. c. When a character passes a reflex check by 10 or more or when an attack fails by 10 or more no penalty is added. d. Successful use of the Bluff skill to Feint in combat results in a –2 penalty to the target’s active AC for the rest of the round up to and including the Feinting character’s next round action. An unsuccessful Feint does not have any effect. 2. AC Adjustments a. Total Defense gives a 50% bonus to active defense instead of just +4. b. Charging gives a 25% penalty to active defense instead of –2. c. Fighting Defensively gives a 25% bonus to active defense and –4 to attacks. d. If the Handbook calls for no Dexterity bonus, instead reduce active defense by 5 or to zero. 3. My rules for criticals are omitted here for simplicity, but ask if you'd like to know more. 4. Armor Converts Damage (from Unearthed Arcana) In addition to adding to AC, armor also converts any damage from physical attacks into non-lethal damage. The amount of damage that may be converted in this way is equal to the AC bonus from armor. So if a character has chain mail (AC +5) and gets hit with 10 points of damage, 5 points of damage are lethal and 5 points are non-lethal. Armor converts non-lethal damage into no damage at all. So if the same character gets hit with 10 points of non-lethal damage, 5 points of non-lethal damage are dealt and the other 5 are ignored thanks to the protection of the armor. 5. Movement, Actions, and Attacks of Opportunity To use normal defense against an attack of opportunity, the target cannot continue in movement or any other action that would prompt an attack of opportunity. If a character doesn’t want to stop movement (or similar activity) the character’s active defense will be reduced by 10 against attacks of opportunity. The advatages to this system are many. 1. Artificial rules do not have to be invented to simulate characters that are asleep or unconscious, they will simply have no active defense. 2. Tactics become more realistic in battle, and more important. One character can no longer defend against 10 attacks in one round with ease. 3. Characters are given credit for their ability to avoid damage rather than just giving them lots of damage capacity. Many experienced role players may have felt frustrated that if their 10th level character doesn't have oodles of magical armor, anyone can hit them. This can be bad in cases of special attacks like poison. 4. Attacks of opportunity are more dangerous. One problem with the D&D system is that a high level fighter can march through an enemy band with impunity to attack a spell caster (or whatever). This is unrealistic, for even experienced fighters will need to stop and defend themselves, BUT might be able to fight their way through if they're good enough. 5. The only variant Wizards has in the Unearther Arcana that does not utilize increasing HP (or Vitality) is the Wounds and Fortitude Saving throw variant. However this variant does not solve any of the problems above and also removes some of the detail of simulation that D&D fans love. 6. No additional calculations are needed, only one use of a chart in place of a dice rolling. 7. Most important, characters will become more Uber, more powerful, and more fun to play as they level up. They will not, however, need to find larger and larger things to kill just to have a challenge. Taking on multiple opponents and attempting more dangerous things will ALWAYS be dangerous because HP don't go up, just your ability to make the damage be lower on the chart. I probably could think of many more, but these are some easy ones. I hope to some day convince Wizards to use a variant like this one and to move away from the archaic HP system. People do not get bigger when they learn... they get better. An experienced person can be knifed in the back, splattered by a rock, or exploded by lightning just like anyone else. Even the argument that characters should be superhuman and durable doesn't hold water, because the rules for HP apply for every character in the entire campaign, and they can't ALL be superhuman. BUT some of them can be better at blocking and dodging than others.
keyunp 09-19-04, 06:30 PM	It looks like it has some promise. I'll be looking at this some more. One thing thats always bugged be is that of all the weapons listed, there is always 1 weapon that is numerically better for any given purpose. And I have trouble picking something for 'flavor' when I know something else is 'better'. When I was adjusting the Injury system from UA (fort save based) I simplfied the weapon damages to catagories. Simple weapons: Light; 1-handed; 2-handed Martial weapons: Light; 1-handed; 2-handed Exotic: Tell me what you want and we'll work it out. Just an idea to consider as an option for your method.
flaiquiri 09-19-04, 08:48 PM	I am ridiculously thankful to you for having come up with this. I, too, have worked on some AC variants, among them those which use portions of reflex save and attack bonus, but this one, I think, is great. However, I see two major balance issues at this point; first, how to balance the reflex save's new clout with capacity from the will save (I've tried using it to resist a "mini-daze" condition after a hit or a near evade, as well as using it to resist certain types of damage with wildly high save thresholds [though this second one was in conjunction with another of my variants and was mainly put in place to balance that]) and, to a lesser extent, the fortitude save; and second, how to balance your HP rules for creatures without constitution scores, but particularly those without strength scores. In worlds where incorporeal creatures exert parallel force against other incorporeal creatures with strength, this isn't such an issue, but it becomes difficult if all incorporeal creatures pass through all others. I hope this doesn't put you down with the idea of more work, and I would be willing to work with you if you want. Webspinner@ix.netcom.com
Goken100 09-20-04, 06:30 AM	Thanks for the responses. As far as simplified damage goes, I think that I'll stick with the damage categories they have now. Weapons have differences other than damage in their critical threat range (although I do not use the critical multiplier) and in how the weapons are used (some can be finesse, some can disarm, some are two-ended, and some can be used to attack opponents 10 feet away). One thing I considered adding to weapons is something to measure their durability. I know, for example, that broad swords had to be so broad in order to stand up the bashing combat of armored combatants. To flaiquiri, I think you brought up a good point and I will be e-mailing you for any thoughts. I don't think that any imbalance among the characters is too extreme thanks to the armor Conversion rule that I used from UA. That rule makes the militant characters that know how to wear armor but not dodge things (Fighter, Cleric, and Paladin) more tempting because the damage they take will be more non-lethal, so be more easily healed. The Barbarian class needs to receive something to compensate for the loss of the HP advantage, so I was going to give that class a natural armor bonus every 4 levels (this may need to be increased to every 3). The only characters really left out are Sorceror and Wizard, and they're not usually on the front lines. But I'm interested to see what options there are to make the other saving throws more useful.
Sang-Drax 09-20-04, 09:07 AM	4. Armor Converts Damage In addition to adding to AC, armor also converts any damage from physical attacks into non-lethal damage. The amount of damage that may be converted in this way is equal to the AC bonus from armor. So if a character has chain mail (AC +5) and gets hit with 10 points of damage, 5 points of damage are lethal and 5 points are non-lethal. Armor converts non-lethal damage into no damage at all. So if the same character gets hit with 10 points of non-lethal damage, 5 points of non-lethal damage are dealt and the other 5 are ignored thanks to the protection of the armor. I specially liked this part. I always thought that heavy armor were too weak compared to a high-dex warrior with light armor. This system should stimulate a lot, and it's just highly realistic, without bringing balance issues. I liked everything you've written, but I didn't not actually understand everything. Anyway, my question is... wouldn't blasting spells be too powerful? For instance, a 40-hp damage lightining bolt would turn any experienced, low-reflex fighter into ashes.
hamilcar 09-20-04, 06:20 PM	I had a couple of questions regarding your damage system. The first is when you refer to "Amount of Hit" do you mean what you rolled on the D20 or how much your hit exceeded your opponent's AC? Also, do you have damage progressions for weapons which use two dice, such as a falchion, which deals 2d4 points of damage under the normal system. I really like the looks of your system, I have come up with several ideas like that, but never one which actually was any good under the D20 system.
Goken100 09-20-04, 08:42 PM	Hehe, well Sang-Drax I can't really take credit for the rule that you quoted, its straight out of UA (I've edited the original post to note this). It just turned out to fit into this rule variant very nicely so I included it. You also bring up a good point. Magic spells that are designed to deal a lot of damage to experienced characters have only a saving throw for half damage (if you're lucky). What I propose instead is that the damage from these spells be calculated by the damage chart. So if I fail a saving throw by 5 points and the spell does 5d6, I will look up 1d6 and 5 on the chart, and multiply by 5 (for all 5 dice). In order to maintain balance, most difficulties should be increased by 5. If the character has the ability to save for zero damage, the DC will not be increased by 5. Hamilcar, you are correct on your first question. The "Amount of Hit" is indeed the amount by which an attack roll exceeds the target's AC. For weapons that do 2d4 damage (or any multiple of dice), just look up the entry for one die and multiply it. You'll find that 2d4 for any given "Amount of Hit" does just a little more damage than 1d8, which is what you'd want (the average roll for 2d4 is 5, while the average for 1d8 is 4.5).
hamilcar 09-20-04, 09:59 PM	Thank you for clearing that up. Once again, your system appears to be very well done and logical. I would like to commend you for posting and sharing it with all of us.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-21-04, 01:32 AM	How do you deal with spells, breath weapons and other attacks that don't require hit rolls? Also, where does the strength bonus/ weapon spec/ etc. factor in with regards to damage? It seems like you're going to get a lot of quick kills when you've got a +5 weapon, weapon specialization and a 24 strength character. When your hit points on't increase having a base damage of +14 before extra damage is even considered is pretty much an easy win.
Goken100 09-21-04, 06:06 AM	How do you deal with spells, breath weapons and other attacks that don't require hit rolls? Also, where does the strength bonus/ weapon spec/ etc. factor in with regards to damage? It seems like you're going to get a lot of quick kills when you've got a +5 weapon, weapon specialization and a 24 strength character. When your hit points on't increase having a base damage of +14 before extra damage is even considered is pretty much an easy win. Good question. Like I hinted at before, spells and other effects will have saving throws, and the amount of failure will determine damage on the chart. DC for these is generally increased by 5 to maintain balance. That is, if you get someone breathing fire right at you its hard to dodge the whole thing, but if you're quick it won't hurt that bad (maybe just singe your eyebrows). As far as bonuses to damage when attacking, that's another good question. Since having a better chance to hit increases the damage you're likely to get, most effects to not increase damage directly. Strength and weapon bonuses are only added to attack. As far as Feats, I have Specialization increase the chance to hit by 1 just like Weapon Focus. So if you get all 4 feats, its a +4 to hit (and an effect 4 spots higher on the damage chart). Thanks for the questions, these sort of things keep me thinking so that my campaign will go more smoothly. I'd be honored if anyone wanted to attempt to apply any of this variant to their own campaign, but my heart will go on if nobody does. ;)
keyunp 09-29-04, 08:30 PM	I'm looking at using your rules and got some questions. Can you post your critical rules? What do you do about using a weapon 2-handed? What about power attack? So spells without saves or to hit rolls now give a save (reflex?) with +5 to the DC?
Goken100 10-01-04, 12:44 AM	I'm looking at using your rules and got some questions. Can you post your critical rules? What do you do about using a weapon 2-handed? What about power attack? So spells without saves or to hit rolls now give a save (reflex?) with +5 to the DC? 3. Critical Hits On the roll of a 19 or 20, roll two 10 sided dice and add the smallest result (zero through nine). If they are both 9, roll another pair and add the lowest of that as well (ad infinitem). There is no automatic hit, but this makes hitting on a 19 or 20 more probable. Perform the inverse for rolling a 2 or 3. If a weapon or other factor increases the threat range, then roll the additional dice for 18, 17, etc as needed. Ignore increases to the critical damage multiplier (x2, x3, etc). When a hit is made by a considerable amount, not only will considerable damage result on the damage chart, other nice things can happen (from the attacker’s point of view). If any single attack takes more than three quarters of a creature’s hit points, the damaged creature loses the use of a limb and must roll a Fortitude saving throw vs. DC 15. If the save fails, the character goes into shock (basically unconscious). Damage to the Strength of a character can also reflect the loss of limb use. If an attack deals 15 or more damage one of the following things may result. If a free attack on an object results, the object defends with its own natural AC not the owner’s AC (see attacking objects below). Roll on the following table: Roll D10 Result of hitting with 15 or more damage 1-2 Free attack on defender’s defending weapon 3-4 Free attack on defender’s shield 5-6 Free attack on defender’s armor 7 Free attack on defender’s equipment 8-10 Defender rolls a Balance check (DC is amount of hit) or is knocked down On a similar note critical fumbles will not be automatic on a low roll, just as critical hits are not based on a high roll. Since critical hits are merely hits that result from severely outclassing your opponent, so will critical fumbles be attack rolls where the defender outclasses the level of the attack by a high amount. This does not necessarily have to happen when the attack roll is a 2 and a die is rolled to subtract from that, though it often will. Whenever an attack misses by 15 or more, the attack is a terrible failure. Depending on the circumstances this could happen from two children trying to hit one another with claymores and dropping them on their feet, or from a skilled defender casually whipping an attack away with great force. Roll D10 Result of Missing by 15 Points or More 1-3 Attacker drops weapon 4-5 Defender gets free attack (with defending weapon) on attacker’s weapon 6-7 Defender gets an attack of opportunity on the attacker 8-10 Attacker rolls a Balance check (DC is amount of miss –5) or is knocked down I'll also post the rules for attacking objects, since its referenced here: 8. Attacking Objects Attacking objects is slightly different than what is described in the in the Player’s Handbook. A target has only an AC to determine whether it takes damage. Object AC = 5 + Size Modifier + Object’s Hardness Objects have the same HP as those listed in the Player’s Handbook. Using two handed weapons doesn't change things two much, except for the strength modifier. Here's a little house rule that I saw and liked: 6. Two Handed Strength Modifiers If you're wielding a weapon with both hands, add one and a half times your STRENGTH ability bonus - if you have a bonus - but only incur half your normal Strength penalty - if you have a penalty. Always round down. EXAMPLES: If you have a bonus of +3 to attack, that would be +4.5, or round down to +4, and if you have a penalty of -1, that would be -0.5, or still -1 as you round down. +4 would become +6, but -2 would become -1. Power Attack is a feat that doesn't make sense when you have a more realistically modeled system in which the sucess of the attack increases the attack's damage. If you really want to adjust it so that it is usable, you'll have the make the increase in damage be greater (something like +1d2 for every +1 to attack sacrificed). I don't play with the feat, so I haven't tested anything out to make sure its balanced. As for spells, no, I was saying that spells that already have a saving throw should have their DCs increased by 5 if the PHB indicates that a successful save prevents only half damage (because with this system, a successful save should prevent all damage). For spells that do not have saving throws in the core rules, the implication is that they are fairly hard to dodge (or resist or whatever). You'll want to give a saving throw with something like +10 to DC, but evaluate this on a case-by-case basis. This may make some spells do too much damage, so the damage may need to be lessened. If you have any specific questions about spells, feel free to ask and I'll let ya know how I handle it. If you're wondering about Magic Missile for example, one of the most common spells, I would make each missile do only 1d2 damage. Due to the +10 to save DC, the Magic Missile will usually hit by a good margin, going higher than other spells on the damage chart.
starfire311 10-01-04, 08:59 AM	So a 10th level wizard will get 5 Magic missiles each will do 1D2 and if he has a 20 intellegence the DC will be 25 VS a 10th level Fighter Str 20 Con of 18 Dex 12 Ref +4 The fighter Will have to make 5 saves say average roll of 10 gives him a 14 Each missile will do 5 damage on average and the fighter will take 25 damage this will reduce his strength to 7... This makes MM very powerful If this same wizard were to throw a Lightning bolt at the Fighter instead 10D6 DC 18 if the fighter gets a 14 or less on his save he will take 40 or more damage and will be dead. This does indead make spells much more deaddly and that may be fine, I just wanted to point this out. on another topic, I was thinking give a bonus to HP per HD wouldnt be a bad idea so a 10th level fighter with a 20 strength and 18 Con woulf have a total of 20(Str)+18(Con)+10(HD)= 48 HP Just an idea.
aikboy 10-01-04, 07:51 PM	for u who thinks spellcasters are to good and want to nerf em (like me :schemes: ) just screw the +5 to saves thingy... a lvl 5 wiz vs a lvl 5 fighter fighter 30hp ref +3 fireball dc 16 On a roll of 10 he will take 10 dmg-8 for his full plate= 2 dmg, about nothing with dc 21 he would take 35-8=28 dmg, thats a heckload of diference... and it gets worse with lvls.. lvl 20 fighter 40hp will +8 wiz dc (horrid withing) 25 roll of 10 = but the fighter on the other side= fighter +10 (5 bab + 3 str + 2 focus and spec) 1d10 dmg bastard sword wizard ac 10 (5 base 4 ref 1bab) hp 25 if the fighter rolls 10 on his attack he will do 16 dmg 2/3 of a wizards hp I think thats a little uneaven, also i would crew critical a roll of 20 = a heckload if more dmg, just spells that add to your critical range give +1 attack for every 2bonus.
Goken100 10-04-04, 06:30 AM	I like what both starfire and aikboy are saying. Sounds like the spell saving throws should be kept the same, because spells are made to do a lot of damage to characters with hundreds of hit points. Spells without saving throws could be given a +5 to DC, but only if that means they won't be more deadly than they should be. The reason I didn't have good answers to questions about spells is that I have my own spell system, for campaign reasons. That's not to say that the standard spell system can't work with the more realistic AC and HP system, it just takes a little intelligent thought, like what has gone on here. Thanks guys for the interesting comments. :)
starfire311 10-04-04, 09:13 AM	aikoboy I know what you are trying to say but I think you made some mistakes. for u who thinks spellcasters are to good and want to nerf em (like me :schemes: ) just screw the +5 to saves thingy... a lvl 5 wiz vs a lvl 5 fighter fighter 30hp ref +3 fireball dc 16 On a roll of 10 he will take 10 dmg-8 for his full plate= 2 dmg, about nothing with dc 21 he would take 35-8=28 dmg, thats a heckload of diference... I dont think using this system that armor will reduce the damage from a fireball. Actually using this system armor doesn't reduce damage at all, it will convet some damage from normal to non-lethal, but it still won't affect spell damage. Also the numebers don't quite work out if the fighter rolls a 10 on his save that gives him a 13 vs DC 16 he fails by 3. If the damage die is 1D6 then it would be 3 points per die fro a total of 15 damage not 10. and it gets worse with lvls.. lvl 20 fighter 40hp will +8 wiz dc (horrid withing) 25 roll of 10 = Horrid Wilting is a fortitude save not willpower so the fighters will save has nothing to do with it. but the fighter on the other side= fighter +10 (5 bab + 3 str + 2 focus and spec) 1d10 dmg bastard sword wizard ac 10 (5 base 4 ref 1bab) hp 25 if the fighter rolls 10 on his attack he will do 16 dmg 2/3 of a wizards hp I think the wizard AC should be slightly higher Give the wiz dex 14 AC 15 (10 base + 1 Ref + 2 Dex + 2 BAB) If the fighter rolls a 10 to hit he will succeed by 5 doing 8 points of damage not 16. I am not trying to nitpick... I just like making sure all the numbers are right. Goken100 if I have made any mistakes with regards to your system please correct me. on another note how do ranged weapons work? Thrown weapons in normal D&D add the wielders dex to the attack roll and strength to the damage roll. How do mighty bows work in your system? I guess you just wouldn't have them, but it is just another question that needs to be addressed. GL and I like the system so far, just want to get all the bases covered.
Goken100 10-04-04, 03:33 PM	I dont think using this system that armor will reduce the damage from a fireball. Actually using this system armor doesn't reduce damage at all, it will convet some damage from normal to non-lethal, but it still won't affect spell damage... ...I am not trying to nitpick... I just like making sure all the numbers are right. Goken100 if I have made any mistakes with regards to your system please correct me. on another note how do ranged weapons work? Thrown weapons in normal D&D add the wielders dex to the attack roll and strength to the damage roll. How do mighty bows work in your system? I guess you just wouldn't have them, but it is just another question that needs to be addressed. GL and I like the system so far, just want to get all the bases covered. The only thing that could be misinterpretted in starfire's post is "armor doesn't reduce damage at all" in this system. While the Armor Reduction of Damage variant is not a part of this system, there is still an element of damage reduction. Any effect that increases AC will decrease not only the chance that a hit will land but also the damage that will be dealt because the hit amount on the chart will be less. However I now know that starfire understands this, but I wanted to spell it out again in case of any confusion. The question as to whether armor will prevent damage from spells is one that I often wrestled with in creating my own spell system, and the answer is often no (as is the case with Fireball). Spells that would be made as attacks are spells that hurl physical objects or create them, and so against those spells armor and other elements of AC would protect the target. Spells that can't be blocked but only dodged need a Reflex save. Ranged attacks will use Dexterity instead of Strength for attack bonus. This is to reflect that a character like Legolas can kill an Oiliphant with a couple of arrows, not from strength, but with skill and steady hands. Note that ranged missile attacks cause the defender to take a -2 penalty to active AC. If Ranged Weapons do extra damage from superior strength, add 1d2 to the damage that the weapon does for every +2. This is not as much of an increase in damage as it could be, but that is because we don't want these ranged attacks to have two large bonuses (Dex and Str) at the same time.
starfire311 10-05-04, 08:41 AM	I think the wizard AC should be slightly higher Give the wiz dex 14 AC 15 (10 base + 1 Ref + 2 Dex + 2 BAB) This is wrong Base AC is 5 not 10... Go me.
starfire311 10-05-04, 09:21 AM	4. Armor Converts Damage (from Unearthed Arcana) In addition to adding to AC, armor also converts any damage from physical attacks into non-lethal damage. The amount of damage that may be converted in this way is equal to the AC bonus from armor. So if a character has chain mail (AC +5) and gets hit with 10 points of damage, 5 points of damage are lethal and 5 points are non-lethal. Armor converts non-lethal damage into no damage at all. So if the same character gets hit with 10 points of non-lethal damage, 5 points of non-lethal damage are dealt and the other 5 are ignored thanks to the protection of the armor. Ok goken I thoguht I had your armor system figured out, but perhaps I was wrong. I thought Armor converted Lethal Damage to non-lethal and non-lethal to none. In addition to providing a bonus to AC. But you said this Armor will in fact both reduce and convert, thus making it somewhat more valuable. This leads me to believe that Armor will Reduce, convert and give a bonus to your AC So take a guy wearing Full Plate +8 bonus His AC is going to be better by 8, and he will reduce damage by 8 points and convert 8 points to non-lethal or none. So this guy gets hit by a longsword and the hit succeeds by 8 so looking at the chart it is 10 points of damage. This gets reduced by 8 to 2 and then the 2 is converted non-lethal. So net result is he takes 2 non-lethal damage Same situation but not wearing the full plate This means that the success is by 16, because his AC was reduced by 8 for taking off the armor that means he takes 21 points of Lethal daamge so in this case full plate essential reduces the damage by 19 and then converts the last 2 points to non-lethal... that seems a little much for armor to do.
aikboy 10-05-04, 10:43 AM	First, sorry for my last post being bad thought trough.. posted in midle o night Back to topic, i realy like this system so i have thought it through some and heres some ideas: I incuded some changes to make batles last longer: Make base ac 10 To balance the above with spells screw the +5 mod I also converted that "con and str = hp" to " str and fort save (wo magic bonus) becurse even through you dont should get superman with lvls you get a litle stronger and capable of taking punishmen, fighters who spend more time in taking dmg gets stronger faster then a wizard who enoys a prety dmg free life. And i also thought of some pure balance purpose changes Also give spells a set dmg of d10, this is becurse weapon dmg dont scale, why should spell dmg? The problem with save free spells? do as Goken100 said and give them the +5 mod. Breath weapons just do a single die of the appropriate die d10 for red dragons for example (remember save DC scale with dragon age category :D) And to delite that, if lucky one hit kill some large creatures capable of doing: 4d6 dmg, scale the dmg down to the dmg the creature would have if it was medium size and delite the minus for large size, keep + for small becurse thier dmg is unchanged And im also on to what starfire311 thinks of the "armor converts dmg" thingy, as armor already reduce damage (lowering the amount attack hit by) why should it lower it TWICE this is good in the normal system when you ether hit or you dont but not here.... I also (same word ten times? :P) made some calulations at exel just to check if this system was balanced and it gives about the same damage as the normal system per level, exept at lvl 10 where it does half the % of max hp then other lvls (werd) [Edit: some spelling] [Edit 2:the "large creatures scale dmg down" thingy"]
Goken100 10-05-04, 09:20 PM	Sorry sorry, I took term "reduce damage" totally the wrong way. I know there's a rule in UA about reducing damage based on armor, but I wasn't thinking of it. In this system, every component that goes into AC will reduce damage, because the damage that an attack does is based on the margin by which the attack exceeds AC. That's all I meant when I said armor reduces damage in addition to converting damage. So if the chart says 10 damage when you're wearing full plate, it will do 8 non-lethal and 2 lethal. I'll see if I can fix my earlier post. I'll make comments about Aikboy's suggestions (some of which seem really good) in a seperate post once I have time to think it over, just wanted to post this real quick.
Goken100 10-05-04, 11:05 PM	I incuded some changes to make batles last longer: Make base ac 10 Keep in mind that when an attack lands by a margin of 1-5, its not doing very much damage. In playtesting, I found that if AC is higher than the average attack roll, battle are long and boring. I therefore chose 5 as the base AC in order to make the AC of classes like Fighter and Ranger be approximately the same as the average attack roll of the same class at the same level. This is true for Monk and Cleric as well, though less phsyically offensive classes like Rogue and Wizard have a higher AC on average than attack roll. To balance the above with spells screw the +5 mod Ya, I agree that spells that already have a saving throw can go without the +5. I also converted that "con and str = hp" to " str and fort save (wo magic bonus) becurse even through you dont should get superman with lvls you get a litle stronger and capable of taking punishmen, fighters who spend more time in taking dmg gets stronger faster then a wizard who enoys a prety dmg free life. This gave me the most cause for thought. I'm still leaning toward just Str and Con because its more consistant, but there is a certain logic to using the Fortitude Saving throw. It has the Con modifier as an element, and allows battle hardened warriors to be able to take more punishment. However, when this is added to the Armor Conversion rule that is already implemented, it may unbalance the beefier classes and make them too good. I need to exmine the matter further... After careful consideration, some experimentation, and consulation with friends, I've come upon a conclusion. This rule would have a minor unbalancing effect on the game and a moderate increase on confusion and complexity would result. In addition, the reasoning is not sound. If a person, no matter how seasoned, is strapped to a table and beat up, experience and skill will not protect him. Those things only allow the person to fight better (dodging, blocking, etc). If a soldier or warrrior can take more damage, it is only a result of better conditioning and strengthening (increases in Str and Con, which are possible in the base system). I therefore vote to use Str and Con as opposed to Str and Fortitude Save for hit points. And i also thought of some pure balance purpose changes Also give spells a set dmg of d10, this is becurse weapon dmg dont scale, why should spell dmg? The problem with save free spells? do as Goken100 said and give them the +5 mod. Breath weapons just do a single die of the appropriate die d10 for red dragons for example (remember save DC scale with dragon age category :D) And to delite that one hit kill, if lucky 4d6 dmg some creatures has, scale the dmg down to the dmg the creature would have if it was medium size and delite the minus for large size, keep + for small becurse thier dmg is unchanged I'm not sure I follow what all that size stuff is about, but I do believe that damage should be increaseable with greater power. Just increasing the saving throw to make attacks more damaging also makes them very difficult to avoid, which can frustrate players. The difficulty to avoid should be considered alongside the damage a spell does. For example, in the Lightning spells I designed, the Reflex DC is quite high, and the damage is moderate. But because average characters will be hit hard, there will usually be a high amount of damage. I also (same word ten times? :P) made some calulations at exel just to check if this system was balanced and it gives about the same damage as the normal system per level, exept at lvl 10 where it does half the % of max hp then other lvls (werd) Awesome. :cool:
aikboy 10-06-04, 12:31 PM	After careful consideration, some experimentation, and consulation with friends, I've come upon a conclusion. This rule would have a minor unbalancing effect on the game and a moderate increase on confusion and complexity would result. In addition, the reasoning is not sound. If a person, no matter how seasoned, is strapped to a table and beat up, experience and skill will not protect him. Those things only allow the person to fight better (dodging, blocking, etc). If a soldier or warrrior can take more damage, it is only a result of better conditioning and strengthening (increases in Str and Con, which are possible in the base system). I therefore vote to use Str and Con as opposed to Str and Fortitude Save for hit points. what u say is absolutely corect BUT, i take this example a boxer and a body builder. Both have high str and con, but if you would do as u said, stap em to a table and beat em upp the more experianced fighter (the boxer) would hold out longer. just my 2 cent