Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gene2324 07-28-05, 04:17 PM	Well, I personally use this in my campaign to encourage roleplaying and decourage dipping into classes and power builds. So here goes: A player is not allowed to multiclass into another base class until he has reached level 5 in his current class. For Example: Phylum the (currently) 4th level Figher decides he wants to multiclass into a rogue. Well, Phylum isn't allowed to do that until he has reached 5th level in Fighter and then gains an additional level (he would then be a 5th level Fighter 1st level Rogue). This applies to multimulticlassing as well. For Example: Phylum the (now much improved) 5th level Fighter/4th level Rogue decides he wants to try his luck at being a cleric. He cannot do this until he becomes a 5th level Rogue. So, to multiclass again, he will need to gain another level in Rogue then an additional level to put into Cleric. Prestige classes work as follows: If a player takes a prestige class he is NOT allowed to take another until he reaches the maximum level in the prestige class that he currently has. For Example: Phylum the (getting too powerful to be good) 5th level Figher/5th level Rogue/5th level Cleric decides he wants to become a Hierophant (I personally love that class) he can do this so long as he meets the prerequisites to join that class. However, 3 levels into being a Hierophant he decides it's not quite his cup of tea and he decides to become an Assassin. However, because he hasn't completed his training (maxed out levels in other words) as a Hierophant he cannot become an Assassin. However, if he were to stick to his path and reach 5th level in his Hierophant class then he COULD take the Assassin prostige class if the prerequisites were met. Alright, thats how those two things work. Now for some additional stuff pertaining to the aforementioned. A player can become a member of any prostige class as soon as he meets the prerequisites for it. In other words, unlike multiclassing into a base class, the player does NOT need to be level 5. Another thing with the prestige classes, as a favor to my players that actually reach the maximum level in a prestige class normally I give them some sort of magical item for "a job well done" this is more often a gift from the academy where they studied or something along those lines. If you have any questions post them and I'll try my best to answer them. -Gene
Lord Schpungus 07-28-05, 04:43 PM	I think it impedes character archetypes that don't fit in the groove of a base class. I also think it's heavy handed, harsh, and arbitrary. It hurts non-spellcasters more than anything, and the lord knows they need all the help they can get. We get nearly a dozen of these a month. D&D shouldn't punish multiclassing even more than it already does. Give it a rest, people. You're all about "munchkin this," and "rollplay that". Just let the poor PCs play what they wanna. It's their game too, foo'. EDIT: I do actually have a question for you. Do you actually see any fighter/cleric/rogue builds or are you just freaking out after having stumbled across the CO board? Those builds are mostly for show only. It's like going to the zoo. Yeah, the wild animals are neat looking, but you never actually see them outside the zoo. Or an art museum. The things inside are beautiful and mindboggling, but no one actually has prints of them hanging in their living room. Please. Just give it a rest. I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a non-caster with this crazy rule in effect.
rbrt_Spade 07-28-05, 04:48 PM	yes this is a crazy house rule- a lot of prcs-you need to "dip" into it for them(ex arcane archer)- Lord Schpungus is right about it!--this is going to destory balance in power. for dipping the players get the ex penality and this is going to probably make your players poed also are you going to do this for npcs to? ;)
Gene2324 07-28-05, 05:03 PM	I think it impedes character archetypes that don't fit in the groove of a base class. I also think it's heavy handed, harsh, and arbitrary. It hurts non-spellcasters more than anything, and the lord knows they need all the help they can get. We get nearly a dozen of these a month. D&D shouldn't punish multiclassing even more than it already does. Give it a rest, people. You're all about "munchkin this," and "rollplay that". Just let the poor PCs play what they wanna. It's their game too, foo'. Well, you do make a good point. Maybe it is a bit too harsh, though the players have yet to complain. Maybe I should restructure it a little bit. EDIT: I do actually have a question for you. Do you actually see any fighter/cleric/rogue builds or are you just freaking out after having stumbled across the CO board? Those builds are mostly for show only. It's like going to the zoo. Yeah, the wild animals are neat looking, but you never actually see them outside the zoo. Or an art museum. The things inside are beautiful and mindboggling, but no one actually has prints of them hanging in their living room. Please. Just give it a rest. I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a non-caster with this crazy rule in effect. Actually yes I have seen a Fighter/Cleric/Rogue build, one of my players is a serious power-gamer, that was the main reason that I came up with these was in an attempt to thwart his ways. yes this is a crazy house rule- a lot of prcs-you need to "dip" into it for them(ex arcane archer)- Lord Schpungus is right about it!--this is going to destory balance in power. for dipping the players get the ex penality and this is going to probably make your players poed[QUOTE] Well I play a semi-combat heavy campaign for the group that I use this rule with so the exp. penalty really doesn't do all that much. I mean, it helps, just not enough to be really detrimental to their character development. [QUOTE]also are you going to do this for npcs to? If I keep it, you betcha. Sooo, seeing as how this is a tad harsh according to you guys/gals, what would you suggest I do to discourage power-gaming and general munchkining in my game?
rbrt_Spade 07-28-05, 05:07 PM	talk to them about it mabye double check the pc sheets magic idems-control over harder crs
Gene2324 07-28-05, 05:14 PM	talk to them about it mabye double check the pc sheets magic idems-control over harder crs Alright, I'll give it a try. I know that at least two of 'em wouldn't mind me removing some of their "uber-stuff" but the third (power-gamer) he'll probably give me a whole speech about why he has to lose some of his weapons. I mean, the guy carries eight weapons around with him at all times (seriously) and some are really nasty too.
Thuragrun 07-28-05, 07:04 PM	I have never allowed more than two base and two PrC per character in my campaigns. Never had a complaint from any of the twelve players I DM for either. Then again, we abhor powergaming and munchkinism.
Gene2324 07-28-05, 07:11 PM	I have never allowed more than two base and two PrC per character in my campaigns. Never had a complaint from any of the twelve players I DM for either. Then again, we abhor powergaming and munchkinism. That right there is a VERY VERY good idea. Perhaps I should do that instead of nerfing their already powerful characters. Nobody except the powergamer in my group would object seeing as how he alread has four classes (Monk,Sorcerer,Black Dragon Disciple,Archmage) but thats his own fault for being a powergamer. Speakings of him, what should I do about him? His character is by far the most tweaked out pos I've ever seen in my going on eight years of DMing. Any suggestions on how to remove most of his power? Should I just have him roll up a new character or what?
Thuragrun 07-28-05, 07:16 PM	I would just let the character go for now. You allowed it to happen. Just consider it a learning experience. Unless he is absolutely ruining the game, then tailor an encounter that takes advantage of his weaknesses...cough..GOLEMS OR UNDEAD...cough... Good luck!
Gene2324 07-28-05, 07:39 PM	I would just let the character go for now. You allowed it to happen. Just consider it a learning experience. Unless he is absolutely ruining the game, then tailor an encounter that takes advantage of his weaknesses...cough..GOLEMS OR UNDEAD...cough... Well he isn't ruining the game, he's just making it more difficult to create things that he can't just "Maximized Delayed Blast Fireball" or some other oddball super powerful spell. As for the Golems or Undead, thats another good idea, they are trapped in a collapsed temple in the center of a desert all alone. Maybe I should kill him off, but I want to do it fairly.
Thuragrun 07-28-05, 08:01 PM	A collapsed temple in the desert. So many possibilities... An (advanced?) iron golem in the shape of a huge ankheg as an ancient temple guardian is something that comes to mind. Or the golem could have been created to destroy the temple and was left there to stop anyone from rebuilding it.
Gene2324 07-28-05, 08:20 PM	A collapsed temple in the desert. So many possibilities... I love desert temples, think of the many ways sand can kill a person. :ghosted: An (advanced?) iron golem in the shape of a huge ankheg as an ancient temple guardian is something that comes to mind. Or the golem could have been created to destroy the temple and was left there to stop anyone from rebuilding it. That sounds good, but before entering the temple they found a book that mentions Dune Worms, and I figure on making a Dune Worm some sort of gigantic undead monster that'll tear limbs off and whatnot. Hows that sound?
Thuragrun 07-28-05, 08:36 PM	Sounds good. I also thought of an arcane ooze from MMIII. It is immune to magic while also consuming arcane energy from the PC from a distance. Or use a dry lich from Sandstorm. They can dish out some punishment and use the desert environment to their advantage.
Gene2324 07-28-05, 08:46 PM	Sounds good. I also thought of an arcane ooze from MMIII. It is immune to magic while also consuming arcane energy from the PC from a distance. Or use a dry lich from Sandstorm. They can dish out some punishment and use the desert environment to their advantage. Sadly I do not own MMIII at the moment (gonna get it sooner or later) I am going to be getting Sandstorm tomorrow and look foreward to torturing my players with some of the (hopefully) nasty stuff it contains. I'll have to do a quick internet search on that Dry Lich though, sounds like quite the nasty beast.
Thuragrun 07-28-05, 09:01 PM	Both books are awesome. I would pick up MMIII asap.
Octal40 07-28-05, 09:30 PM	Well, you do make a good point. Maybe it is a bit too harsh, though the players have yet to complain. Maybe I should restructure it a little bit. Well, if no one is complaining, all is well then, right? I agree it's totally heavy handed. I think you should ask yourself what you're trying to stop. Is it munchkin-ing or is it the fact that a player has to take 3 X, 1 Y, 1 Z to qualify for a PrC? If so, just houserule away any requirements that impinge on roleplaying. It's what I'm going to do. I'd rather the player had their character in whatever shape they wanted rather than being forced to take a one level dip in a class that really didn't make sense for their character just to qualify for a PrC that does.
Loren Pechtel 07-29-05, 02:25 AM	You've got some reasonable ideas but I don't exactly like the implementations. 5-level requirement: I would modify that as follows: You can take any number of base classes so long as you keep the levels as even as possible. Also you may switch to a PrC on the first level that you qualify for it. Both requirements: I would not apply them at the 21st level. Going into epic levels changes things. In other words, you can also change when the rules basically encourage them. Your system results in some unreasonable requirements put on PrCs that are meant to work with a combination of two base classes. (Example: Arcane Archer, Mystic Theurge.)
Ad Infinitum 07-29-05, 02:54 AM	If you do the max 2 PRC, 2 base classes, would you allow them to take eleventh and on levels in a prestige class before hitting 20th? Case in point: Rogue 1 / any mage 5 / Daggerspell Mage 10. It's the standard Daggerspell Mage, nothing fancy. Once you hit 16th, though, you can't take any more levels in the DSM. The best (and most flavorful) prestige class to go into then is Eldritch Knight (Primarily casting with some melee ability). Problem is that you need proficiency with all martial weapons to qualify, so the player is almost forced to take a level in Fighter, Ranger or Paladin. Eliminating the tenth level cap would help fix that at least... even if the DSM has almost no ability advancement beyond 10th.
Dunelord 07-29-05, 03:35 AM	Either talk to the player or ditch him. No matter what rules you have a power gamer can find ways around them. Good ones will even consider it a challange or just go to the Opp boards if they are lazy.
WihHizwind 07-29-05, 03:41 AM	The game already has an inbuilt method for dealing with dippers. It's called the multiclassing XP penalty. Smite him with it once he makes a step wrong. And smite him well. He will not like the 20% XP penalty, and he will either leave your game or he will smarten up and stop dipping.
Tenzhi 07-29-05, 04:31 AM	The game already has an inbuilt method for dealing with dippers. It's called the multiclassing XP penalty. Which doesn't apply to PrCs and which anyone can ignore for their favoured class (making humans the optimum dippers). I'm more in favour of setting a total limit on the number of classes that can be taken and simply throwing out the stereotype-reinforcing XP penalty. I'd say a total of four classes is a good maximum, with the stipulation that no more than three of them can be base classes and no more than two of them may be PrCs.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 07-29-05, 07:07 AM	the biggest problem with your system is that it nukes multiclassing for anything expet favoured classes, because you have that massive gap of four levels by defalt! Also level dipping can be a flavourfull roleplaying tool, those clases are favoured by those races for a reason you know. Dwarven cleric feels the need to take the fight to his oponents more=fighter level 1. Cleric of Boocob starts to dabble in the arcane a little=wizard 1
DragonWatcher 07-29-05, 10:00 AM	Alright, I'll give it a try. I know that at least two of 'em wouldn't mind me removing some of their "uber-stuff" but the third (power-gamer) he'll probably give me a whole speech about why he has to lose some of his weapons. I mean, the guy carries eight weapons around with him at all times (seriously) and some are really nasty too. Question: How did he get eight weapons to carry around, including some that are really nasty??? That part of this doesn't sound like it's his fault, but yours (as DM) for handing out magic items like candy at Halloween. I've done this before, and if you are doing this now, let me give you some advice: STOP IT! Seriously, handing out magic items because you think that they're cool is potentially the biggest game-breaker out there. When I say "handing out" I don't just mean in treasure either. Even making a magic item available for purchase when you know that the PCs have the gold to buy them is a hand out. As a DM you really need to be strict on what items you make available in your game. While it's true that a spellcaster with the proper feats can make their own magic items, for most PC's this is not an option. Either because they can't get the feats (they aren't spellcasters themselves), or because spending the XP to make too many items is prohibitive, and weakens their characters by slowing their advancement (and most players aren't willing to do this). I'm not saying not to hand out magic items... at higher levels the PCs need them. Just be cautious, and don't overdo it. Especially with weapons and armor... going overboard with these two types of items can be very damaging to the game. Remember, even a character who dips into every single class will likely not be overpowered if he has no magic items (or a limited selection). As for destroying overpowering items... might I suggest an NPC who specializes in Sunder, or there's always Disjunction (I think that it's Mordenkinden's (sp) Disjunction in the PHB).
BelZoradon 07-29-05, 05:10 PM	i have a guy in my group that LOVES power building... he also happens to be the best RPer in the group by far (most exp) so he and i found a nice little balance... its called... IM GOD!!! and if your multiclassing doesnt make sence i tell you to sit down and SHUT UP! give it a try... it works wonders
Gene2324 07-29-05, 05:51 PM	i have a guy in my group that LOVES power building... he also happens to be the best RPer in the group by far (most exp) so he and i found a nice little balance... its called... IM GOD!!! and if your multiclassing doesnt make sence i tell you to sit down and SHUT UP! I could do that, but I'm trying to let the gods be the gods and I just supervise and smite when neccesary. Question: How did he get eight weapons to carry around, including some that are really nasty??? That part of this doesn't sound like it's his fault, but yours (as DM) for handing out magic items like candy at Halloween. I've done this before, and if you are doing this now, let me give you some advice: STOP IT! Well, of the eight only three of them are super powerful. The rest are like +1 or +2 weapons but those others weren't "handed out like candy". His most powerful sword (+2 Vorpal Long Sword) he had to single handedly defeat a lich and it's minions. And he RPed that encounter extremely well and I felt that he deserved just compensation for almost being killed. The others are from the party wizard (Mind you, the party is levels 13-16) whom has a tendancy to over-power items even at the heavy exp costs. Seriously, handing out magic items because you think that they're cool is potentially the biggest game-breaker out there. When I say "handing out" I don't just mean in treasure either. Even making a magic item available for purchase when you know that the PCs have the gold to buy them is a hand out. I've never EVER handed out a magical item because I thought it was "cool" thats what BBEGs are for. Also, no matter how much PCs whine at me, I will never sell magical items ANYWHERE. As a DM you really need to be strict on what items you make available in your game. While it's true that a spellcaster with the proper feats can make their own magic items, for most PC's this is not an option. Either because they can't get the feats (they aren't spellcasters themselves), or because spending the XP to make too many items is prohibitive, and weakens their characters by slowing their advancement (and most players aren't willing to do this). Well, I've got a solid level 12 wizard whom is all about enchanting items. Mainly weapons/armor and wands. He doesn't seem to care that his character is around 3 levels behind everyone else. I'm not saying not to hand out magic items... at higher levels the PCs need them. Just be cautious, and don't overdo it. Especially with weapons and armor... going overboard with these two types of items can be very damaging to the game. Actually I try not to hand out too many magical items. Most of my players complain that after defeating some monstrous foe that "all they got" was a +1 or +2 weapon some armor and a bit of gold, along with the odd gems or piece of artwork. As for destroying overpowering items... might I suggest an NPC who specializes in Sunder, or there's always Disjunction (I think that it's Mordenkinden's (sp) Disjunction in the PHB). I'm gonna make the aforementioned Dry Lich specialize in Disjunction. Couple of destroyed weapons will do the party some good. the biggest problem with your system is that it nukes multiclassing for anything expet favoured classes, because you have that massive gap of four levels by defalt! Also level dipping can be a flavourfull roleplaying tool, those clases are favoured by those races for a reason you know. Dwarven cleric feels the need to take the fight to his oponents more=fighter level 1. Cleric of Boocob starts to dabble in the arcane a little=wizard 1 Yes, I have seen the flaws and they have been mentioned before. I'm thinking about totally removing this system and just allow the player a maximum of four classes per character. The game already has an inbuilt method for dealing with dippers. It's called the multiclassing XP penalty.Smite him with it once he makes a step wrong. And smite him well. He will not like the 20% XP penalty, and he will either leave your game or he will smarten up and stop dipping. As Tenzhi mentioned it does not apply to prestige classes. However with his current setup he is standing in a pool of -60% exp. Maybe that'll teach him a lesson. Either talk to the player or ditch him. No matter what rules you have a power gamer can find ways around them. Good ones will even consider it a challange or just go to the Opp boards if they are lazy. I figure on just letting that 60% experience penalty sink in and see the look on his face. If he wants I'll even let him create a new character (minus his current characters equipment) if he wants. Of course, I will give him ways of defending himself in their more difficult campaign. (Probably a magical weapon and a ring or something) Both books are awesome. I would pick up MMIII asap. Seems theres only so many hours a week I can work and those books aren't my top priority. (food is) :D
Soel Griffin 07-29-05, 08:20 PM	Instead of restricting, perhaps you should consider rewarding players who remain in a class for at least a 5 level stretch, a feat or something. Rewards usually work better that restriction... Just a suggestion!
Gene2324 07-29-05, 10:42 PM	Instead of restricting, perhaps you should consider rewarding players who remain in a class for at least a 5 level stretch, a feat or something. Rewards usually work better that restriction... They'd probably like that, I do reward them for reaching maximum level in a prestige class.
Marcus Majarra 07-29-05, 11:25 PM	I follow a simple guideline, with no pun intended: If it's not broken, don't fix it. So you have a power gamer in your group. Does he adhere to the rules? Does he make the game any less fun? If the answer was yes to the first question, and no to the second, I don't see why there should be any need to nerf multiclassing more than it already is. I read that you had to deal with the equivalent of "maximized delayed blast fireballs" from this power gamer. Do you realize that any dedicated caster can give you this kind of havoc? As it is, any dedicated character can accomplish a lot in his or her dedicated fields, whether it be melee, magic, skills, or whatnot. If you're having trouble creating challenges for your players' usual tactics, then it's time for you to change your own tactics. Here's an example that'll get you thinking in the right way. I play a 13th-level monk that has taken a Vow of Poverty in game. Now, although I'm known to enjoy powergaming, I've done very little to optimize this particular character (him being a grappler with a meager +15 grapple modifier). Because of my reputation, my DM is constantly providing our party with challenges practically tailor-fit to negate my fighting style altogether, with little attention to what the other characters are actually doing. As it is, my being pitted repeatedly against challenges that give too little room for decent combat contribution on my part results in the group's casters doing most of the job (actually a lot more than what I could achieve under normal circumstances). The challenges we meet aren't that difficult for us to deal with, but I'm the only one having trouble because the DM's tactics seldom change. The moral of the story is: you need to think outside the box. Make your monsters and NPCs adapt to the PCs' usual tactics. Prepared opponents should already know how to deal with the PCs in the most effective fashion. Limiting multiclassing will not make your players (especially powergamers) less effective. In fact, it might even ruin the flavor of the character altogether. For example, I have in my party a 3rd-level Human Paragon (with Cleric and Ranger levels) who plans on advancing as a Divine Disciple of his god. Nonetheless, he explicitly refuses to take the 5th-level in the PrC, as it will turn him into an Outsider, and thus invalidate him being a paragon of humanity. Should that keep him from taking other PrCs, such as Hierophant? I think not. Not all characters are made to be iconic representations of the PrCs they take. Many can and will only dabble in such practices, mixing and meshing the styles they enjoy, until they can find a whole that feels right.
codexia 07-30-05, 02:14 AM	Generally in my campaign...I have it set up like this, and it seems to work. Base Classes: Other then Barbarian or Sorcerer, any Base Class you don't start out with at creation has to have some form of training to get you into it (encourages roleplaying, since I don't make it THAT easy...but for the most part, easy enough). This also gives the party some downtime for whatever. I don't put limits on this. Also, reaching 10th and 20th level gives you some class based magical items. PrC Classes: All PrC (unless they seem to lack any form of organization or training needs) require training. These are XP rewarded roleplay experiences that add depth to a character. I don't stop level dipping, generally...but there are some fairly powerful rewards for completing the entire PrC, since you get a "graduation present" from your trainer. The one thing I am considering doing is Multiclassing XP penalties for multiple PrC, unless you have totally finished training in the other one (aka, you maxed its levels...you cant train it anymore, so your training no longer splits your attention to both at the same time). Since I don't have epic PrC in my campaign...don't really like most of the PrC progressions past their normal max. Anyway, just my two cents.
Endarire 07-30-05, 03:07 AM	Classes can be professions, such as a cleric, or/and a set of abilities that usually goes together, such as a very skilled, nimble person who knows how to inflict more damage in specific places. Think about that statement. This is fundamental to whether you believe that classes are more rigid, as described first, or ability assortments. Talk with your players about what they want to achieve, how they plan to do it, and why. In my opinion, a fighter/rogue/cleric is probably not optimal, and splitting oneself in that way, even with patching PrCs, is bound to be painful. Note that powergaming, or optimization, so long as multiple options exist, can never be stopped; people generally go for what works best. From an IC prespective, if I, as a wizard, hear of this institution called the High College of Magic that supposedly has access to every arcane spell in the world, and, assuming that I want to be the best wizard I can be, I will inquire as to how I can enroll. This may mean that I devote some of my spell slots every day to stilled spells, practice with some mentors on the finer points of cooperative casting, and study for day after day about obscure arcana. In short, I would aspire to be the best. In metagame terms, this means I'm a L1 wizard who wants to take mage of the arcane order and have read the requirements in Complete Arcane, I ensure that I have the prerequisites and do what I can to ensure that I join ASAP. I see no logical reason why if, as a L1 rogue, I suddenly can't join a fighter's school to give me an edge in combat after I got whacked around. It may be awhile, but it seems better than dying or permanent disability. If strange or/and gruesome things are happening, you must ask yourself why. Sometimes, you will need to tell someone, "I apologize for this,, but I was wrong to allow your <thing>, but I will compensate you with <else>." If power is the issue, talk first with your problem player and learn how he does it, then tell your other players and perhaps nudge them in his direction. Ultimately, consider what is appropriate for your campaign. -EE
Tenzhi 07-30-05, 03:09 AM	I follow a simple guideline, with no pun intended: If it's not broken, don't fix it. I have a similar rule of thumb: If it's being fixed, it must've been broken.
IceFractal 07-30-05, 04:45 AM	A Fighter/Rogue/Cleric doesn't really seem that powerful frankly. In fact, if he was really going for pure power then a plain Cleric would likely be stronger. I think that multiclassing makes a lot more sense once you realize that the characters in game don't say stuff like "He's a level 3 Fighter". That would be meaningless. "He's a warrior of some skill, but not truly an expert yet" would make sense, but that could mean a lot of things. "Fighter" is not a job. "Rogue" is not a job. "Wizard" can be a job, but that job can be achieved by different classes. For instance, a "Holy Knight" - is he a Paladin? a Cleric/Fighter? a Cleric focussed on melee? a devout Fighter or Barbarian? a Psychic Warrior? Could be a lot of things, could be something else entirely, and sometimes the most fun characters are the ones that aren't what you think. The "priest" who is a Rogue with a wand of healing and lots of Knowledge(religion), for instance. That's the kind of character that makes you think. So when you consider the classes not from the point of jobs or strict roles, but rather as elements toward making a unique character, multiclassing makes perfect sense.
Fuzzy_Logic 07-30-05, 08:27 AM	to the OP: however worried you are about powergaming, you aren't dealing wiht the genuine article here. fighter/cleric/rogue is not a poweergamed build, in fact quite hte opposite. it's a build that came about either because the player had a specific history in mind for his character which required it, or because he wanted ot be able to do a little of everything, accepting the fact that he wouldn't be especially powerful. similarly, monk/sorcerer/dragon disciple/archmage is FAR from a strong build. if he 's winning battles by chucking fireballs, that means that both his monk levels and his dragon disciple levels are nearly worthless. on another note, empwered DBF is a ninth level spell. sorcerer get ninth levels spells at level 18 (or seventeen, i don't remember). if he has levels of monk and dragon disciple, they don't count. therefore, i conclude that he is likely a level 20 character. that a level twenty charatcer can do less than 100 points of FIRE DAMAGE should not be a game-breaking problem; most monsters appropriate for 20th level PCs will laugh off something likek that.
Gene2324 07-30-05, 04:29 PM	Alrighty folks, I think I've hear enough arguments against my level rule. All have been considered, I even had the Power Game have a look at this thread as well as the other players. We came to the descision to just start fresh, they've gotten tired of their characters as it is(perhaps cause I keep trying to kill them) so they're all going to retire and I plan on using them as NPCs in my next campaign. I would like to personally thank you all IMMENSELY(sp) you have been a great help to me, as this whole community has been for the short time that I've been here. So please, do not discuss this anymore as I probably will not read it. Again, thank you all so much for your help and I look foreward to posting again if I have issues with something. Thanks so much, -Gene
Kursk 07-30-05, 05:31 PM	Well, I personally use this in my campaign to encourage roleplaying and decourage dipping into classes and power builds. So here goes: A player is not allowed to multiclass into another base class until he has reached level 5 in his current class. For Example: Phylum the (currently) 4th level Figher decides he wants to multiclass into a rogue. Well, Phylum isn't allowed to do that until he has reached 5th level in Fighter and then gains an additional level (he would then be a 5th level Fighter 1st level Rogue). This applies to multimulticlassing as well. For Example: Phylum the (now much improved) 5th level Fighter/4th level Rogue decides he wants to try his luck at being a cleric. He cannot do this until he becomes a 5th level Rogue. So, to multiclass again, he will need to gain another level in Rogue then an additional level to put into Cleric. Prestige classes work as follows: If a player takes a prestige class he is NOT allowed to take another until he reaches the maximum level in the prestige class that he currently has. For Example: Phylum the (getting too powerful to be good) 5th level Figher/5th level Rogue/5th level Cleric decides he wants to become a Hierophant (I personally love that class) he can do this so long as he meets the prerequisites to join that class. However, 3 levels into being a Hierophant he decides it's not quite his cup of tea and he decides to become an Assassin. However, because he hasn't completed his training (maxed out levels in other words) as a Hierophant he cannot become an Assassin. However, if he were to stick to his path and reach 5th level in his Hierophant class then he COULD take the Assassin prostige class if the prerequisites were met. Alright, thats how those two things work. Now for some additional stuff pertaining to the aforementioned. A player can become a member of any prostige class as soon as he meets the prerequisites for it. In other words, unlike multiclassing into a base class, the player does NOT need to be level 5. Another thing with the prestige classes, as a favor to my players that actually reach the maximum level in a prestige class normally I give them some sort of magical item for "a job well done" this is more often a gift from the academy where they studied or something along those lines. If you have any questions post them and I'll try my best to answer them. -Gene Works for me. I think I'll incorporate into my house rules. Thanks.
Dunelord 07-30-05, 05:45 PM	A Fighter/Rogue/Cleric doesn't really seem that powerful frankly. In fact, if he was really going for pure power then a plain Cleric would likely be stronger. I think that multiclassing makes a lot more sense once you realize that the characters in game don't say stuff like "He's a level 3 Fighter". That would be meaningless. "He's a warrior of some skill, but not truly an expert yet" would make sense, but that could mean a lot of things. "Fighter" is not a job. "Rogue" is not a job. "Wizard" can be a job, but that job can be achieved by different classes. For instance, a "Holy Knight" - is he a Paladin? a Cleric/Fighter? a Cleric focussed on melee? a devout Fighter or Barbarian? a Psychic Warrior? Could be a lot of things, could be something else entirely, and sometimes the most fun characters are the ones that aren't what you think. The "priest" who is a Rogue with a wand of healing and lots of Knowledge(religion), for instance. That's the kind of character that makes you think. So when you consider the classes not from the point of jobs or strict roles, but rather as elements toward making a unique character, multiclassing makes perfect sense. You have a good point but if smeone has a spell list they know what they are.
Gene2324 07-30-05, 05:52 PM	Kursk: You may wish to read the rest of this discussion if you haven't already, the system that I mentioned while it does encourage roleplaying and discourage munchkins. It does hamper character development a little bit. So please think it over before making the choice, and remember it's open to modding. -Gene
Vestigial_Thumb 07-30-05, 06:06 PM	Gene2324, you are a horrible fiend of law and evil. I must smite your law with my chaos, multiclassing and fractional saves/base attack bonus. You bad, bad person. BTW, Dunelord just has the most awesome picture in his avatar. I mean, who doesn't like ponies? ;)
Gene2324 07-30-05, 10:49 PM	Gene2324, you are a horrible fiend of law and evil. I must smite your law with my chaos, multiclassing and fractional saves/base attack bonus. You bad, bad person. I thank you for the compliment and am honored you would take the time to attempt to smite me. BTW, Dunelord just has the most awesome picture in his avatar. I mean, who doesn't like ponies? To quote the N00B Guide Page 34 Section 1337: "It's teh uber!!!11!11" :D
Dunelord 07-31-05, 02:53 AM	BTW, Dunelord just has the most awesome picture in his avatar. I mean, who doesn't like ponies? ;) Thanks. I had a few others and it made it harder to find my posts since someone else always had the same one. Then I spent an hour finding what I thought would the least likely for anyone else to have. Same night I saw two other guys with my little pony as an avatar. Sorry to be so far off topic.
Sildatorak 08-02-05, 12:50 AM	I mean, the guy carries eight weapons around with him at all times (seriously) and some are really nasty too. Enforce encumberance and try to keep PC's close to the wealth by level guidelines in the DMG. I really don't see what is so powerful about some fighter/cleric/rogue build compared to a straight cleric. You also mentioned maximized delayed blast fireball...how is a mid teens character throwing around 10th level equivalent spells for a class he doesn't have any caster levels in? I honestly think that the problem is the gear and not the dipping.
Kidthulu 08-02-05, 11:32 AM	My DM is the master of running fun games that entertain us all...... You really gotta consider role play instead of roll play.... If he becomes a problem you give him a rival/arch/nemisis taht only he can deal with...or better yet mental issues/item curses..... power gamers only wanna play to win so in order to keep the group happy give him a win once in a while but don't make it easy something simple....if he learns that the game is about fun more than stats then maybe he will start enjoying it for just that.... there's always the cave of the kobalds...(it's a 50 roomed death trapped dungeon thats impossible to get through unless you play it smart)
Koga:The ninja trick 08-02-05, 07:53 PM	Sounds good, why not just ban mutliclassing/prestige classing all together though? That's what The Koga does..
Purkake 08-02-05, 08:15 PM	Just for fun: Why would ANYONE go against a lich with a vorpal weapon? It's a total waste of +5 bonus. And vorpal is overpriced anyway. Any multiclass is powerful at first(especially clerics with cool domain powers) but unless you need it to enter a Prc they will suck later on. A pure cleric can kick any cleric-mix's ass(no Prcs)
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 08-03-05, 10:54 AM	I'd have to say that simply enforcing the 10% XP penalty really does wonders to stop "dipping"... :D
Dunelord 08-03-05, 11:46 AM	I'd have to say that simply enforcing the 10% XP penalty really does wonders to stop "dipping"... :D It is 20% per class that isn't with in one level.
Tytalus 08-04-05, 04:32 AM	Nobody except the powergamer in my group would object seeing as how he alread has four classes (Monk,Sorcerer,Black Dragon Disciple,Archmage) but thats his own fault for being a powergamer. Speakings of him, what should I do about him? His character is by far the most tweaked out pos I've ever seen in my going on eight years of DMing. Any suggestions on how to remove most of his power? Should I just have him roll up a new character or what? Honestly, it doesn't sound like a particularly powerful character. Weird yes, but powerful? Given that neither monk nor BDD progress spellcasting, and that sorcerer progresses more slowly than other primary casters, I can't imagine him overshadowing a straight cleric, druid, or even wizard. And I personally don't see how levels in BDD actually pay off for a caster type at all - from a power perspective, it's always better to get more spell levels. Plus you are playing in a very high-powered game, obviously. With the Archmage's steep prerequisites this character has an ECL of at least 17 (need sorcerer 14 to qualify for archmage, levels in 3 other classes) - but likely more if he's really a powergamer and took BDD2 and/or Monk2. At this level everyone is powerful.
Vestigial_Thumb 08-06-05, 01:17 PM	Sounds good, why not just ban mutliclassing/prestige classing all together though? That's what The Koga does.. AAAARRRGH!! Must... control... anger. Skin... turning thick... and hairy ( :) ). Teeth and claws... sharpening. MULTICLASSING ROCKS! *Does guitar solo and howls*
neilthrun 08-21-05, 05:00 PM	This also means PCs who want to take levels in Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer, Arcane Trickster and other combo prcs cant do so until lvl 10. This system also works against non humans. What if I want to play a half orc fighter/cleric? I have to take 5 levels of fighter and then a lvl of cleric? Thats a huge xp penalty where as if you alternate levels of fighter and cleric its no big deal.
Stev Beren 08-21-05, 07:08 PM	ONe possibility, off the top of my head - in order to take the first level of a multiclass, they have to spend 15,000 rather than ten thousand EXP - the extra 5,000 standing for the basic stuff a first level character needs to have.
neilthrun 08-22-05, 01:08 AM	Eh if powergaming is your problem single out the offending individual. Tell them to stop. If that doesn't work, just dont play into their hands. Frenzied beserkers can't do much with out a sword. And that Ur Priest/Sublimechord/Mystic Theurge wont have much fun in an anti magic field. If that fails, perhaps there is more than just a problem with multi-classing.