Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koga:The ninja trick 09-13-05, 11:57 PM	The Koga finnaly came up with a simple way to balance out all the classes, tell him what you think of these new tweaks to make each spellcaster nerfed so that melee classes don't feel left out.. Paladins/Rangers: Lose their spells. (All paladin/cleric abilities are wisdom based.) Wild Defender: Introduced in Dr@gon and loses spells. Wilderness Ranger: Introduced in Dr@gon, remains the same. Soulknife: Being the only psionic class allowed. Psionics and magick are considerd one and the same. Soulknives are intelligent or wisdom based. Your choice. CHARISMA IS NO LONGER EXISTANT: The cha attribute is void and null. All casters that are cha-based come from either divine, psionic, or arcane heritage and are given either int/wis as thier primary stat accordingly.. All cha-based skills like diplomacy and bluff no longer have a modifier, simply have ranks applied like write/speak language.. ARCANAE/DIVINE/PSIONICS: The main differance between them is wether they are from inner or outer powers. Arcane spell-failure no longer applies. ARCANA: Arcana comes from the quantamn field itself. As such, all arcane casters are considerd intelligent based, and thier penalty is with every spell cast lose X HP. The HP is equal to the spell's level, do to the body rejecting the energy that flows through them. No longer having "spells per day". (Now the maximum spell castable is not the stat of 10+ but rather the modifier. So a wizard with 18 int has a +4 modifier and therfore can only cast up to 4th level spells..) DIVINE: Divine casters get thier spells from the gods and godesses. They don't have spells per day, but instead when they cast a spell, they have a percentage of spell failure based off the spell's leve times tenl. (For instance a first level spell has a 10% spell failure.) The reasoning behind this is patheons have trouble deleivering thier true power to worshippers because they rest on a tottaly differant dimension making the light travels difficult.. (Now the maxium spell castable is not the stat of 10+ but rather they modifier. So a cleric with 18 wis has a +4 modifer and therfore can only cast up to 4th level spells..) PSIONICS: Psionicists gain thier powers from the inner depths of one's soul and mind. They still have power points as before, but like arcane/divine casters now base thier maximum level on the modifier rather then the attribute number. All manifestors choose if thier power comes from wisdom or intelligence. (Though it rarely matters seeing as only soulknives and monsters are seen in-game..) Well? How is it? :)
Gilean 09-14-05, 10:28 AM	Paladins/Rangers: Lose their spells. (Turn/Rebuke undead is now wisdom powered.)Why, and is there anything to balance it?Wild Defender: Introduced in Dr@gon and loses spells. Wilderness Ranger: Introduced in Dr@gon, remains the same.Don't have access to.CHARISMA IS NO LONGER EXISTANT: The cha attribute is void and null. All casters that are cha-based come from either divine, psionic, or arcane heritage and are given either int/wis as thier primary stat accordingly.. All cha-based skills like diplomacy and bluff no longer have a modifier, simply have ranks applied like write/speak language..Ummm.... I sure hope there is a need for this rule. All skills should have at least one ability, so just shift those previously keyed to charisma.ARCANA: Arcana comes from the quantamn field itself. As such, all arcane casters are considerd intelligent based, and thier penalty is with every spell cast lose X HP. The HP is equal to the spell's level, do to the body rejecting the energy that flows through them. No longer having "spells per day". (Now the maximum spell castable is not the stat of 10+ but rather the modifier. So a wizard with 18 int has a +4 modifier and therfore can only cast up to 4th level spells..)So, you nerf arcanists. Again, the justification?DIVINE: Divine casters get thier spells from the gods and godesses. They don't have spells per day, but instead when they cast a spell, they have a percentage of spell failure based off the spell's leve times tenl. (For instance a first level spell has a 10% spell failure.) The reasoning behind this is patheons have trouble deleivering thier true power to worshippers because they rest on a tottaly differant dimension making the light travels difficult.. (Now the maxium spell castable is not the stat of 10+ but rather they modifier. So a cleric with 18 wis has a +4 modifer and therfore can only cast up to 4th level spells..)Extreme nerf. Reduce the failure chance by caster level or something, otherwise high-level spells are fairly worthless. A 1/10 chance of succeeding in a 9th level spell...PSIONICS: Psionicists gain thier powers from the inner depths of one's soul and mind. They still have power points as before, but like arcane/divine casters now base thier maximum level on the modifier rather then the attribute number. All manifestors choose if thier power comes from wisdom or intelligence. (Though it rarely matters seeing as only soulknives and monsters are seen in-game..)So no great nerf here. Psionics are powered, simply by virtue of only being available to NPCs. Bad game design.
3doorsfan 09-14-05, 11:39 AM	Extreme nerf so what your saying is that koga successfully did what he attempted to do. GOOD JOB KOGA
Koga:The ninja trick 09-14-05, 12:51 PM	Thankyou. ^__^; The Koga talked it over with his friends and they all loved it. (They're avid SW freaks and use to magick depleting health anyway..) Though Amber thought the sorcerer (her favorite) seemed kindof crappy as compared to say THE BARD, so The Koga fixed this by giving each sorcerer a "bloodline style" they pick at second level. (Every sorcerer must "discover" thier true power.) It's kindof like the ranger combat style, exsept they choose a bloodline and gain the special feats from Dr@gon at specific levels without having to meet the prequisites. (Though now bloodlines can't be chosen as feats.) For instance: Plant Sorcerer. 1: Summon Familiar, Knowstones, Draconic Ray. 2: Plant Bloodline. 4: Green Heart. 8: Voice of the Green. Just one of the many varaints a sorcerer could choose to become. A sorcerer can also giveup 500EXP inorder to form a "poltergiest" from #336. But only one. He or she can exscorsize the spirit guide at anytime but must wait 48hours and lose another 500EXP before he or she can reinstate a new one..
Paul Hopebringer 09-14-05, 01:32 PM	Surely the Koga is joking about a few of the things. I think it is a step in the right direction, but why make spellcasters useless? There is no reason to mess with the "half casters" as far as I can see, and something should be there to make clerics a viable option. The HP instead of spells per day sounds good to me... a fighter-wizard would be *more* powerful than a regular wizard, but that seems to be the effect the Koga is going for, although as I have said, while I think making spellcasters weaker is a viable solution for balance, making them weaker *than fighters* isn't. "Affermative action" doesn't always make equality, and I think that Clerics getting it so harshly is a good example. I also feel like the Koga *wasn't* joking when the Koga said "Charisma is no longer existant". It now has almost litterally *no* affect on the game at all. I am a huge fan of roleplaying, and I think it I would put a few points in charisma regardless, but *WHY* does the Koga want to make charisma so useless? Overall, I would say the Koga is either making a joke, in which case I did get a chuckle, but if the Koga isn't joking, then he should reconsider the harshness of the changes and make some compensation.
weasel fierce 09-14-05, 01:38 PM	Your arcane and divine ideas are pretty much the same that I have considered for my oD&D rules. Hence, I heartily agree :)
weasel fierce 09-14-05, 01:39 PM	I also feel like the Koga *wasn't* joking when the Koga said "Charisma is no longer existant". It now has almost litterally *no* affect on the game at all. I am a huge fan of roleplaying, and I think it I would put a few points in charisma regardless, but *WHY* does the Koga want to make charisma so useless? Its not entirely without precedent. GURPS f.x. handles all social interactions through your advantages/disadvantages and skills. Given that D&D doesnt have any mechanical rules for social interaction, not having charisma could work just fine, though I'd avoid going quite that far.
Gilean 09-14-05, 02:19 PM	Given that D&D doesnt have any mechanical rules for social interaction, not having charisma could work just fine, though I'd avoid going quite that far.Technically, there are a few skills... Koga, is balance only reason for these changes? If not, would you care to explain why all of these are made?
Koga:The ninja trick 09-14-05, 03:00 PM	Technically, there are a few skills... Koga, is balance only reason for these changes? If not, would you care to explain why all of these are made? Well, balance was the primary onjective. The secondary objective was style. In spellcasting there is three forms of objective energy. Divine. (Gods, Godesses, etc.) Arcane. (The plants, the animals, the quantamn field.) The Self. (Psionics.) This actually is how witches perseive the powers, perhaps they'd be done differantly If The Koga was applying it to real life, for instance psionics would be "the weakest", but sense psionics were a damn good system from the start, restricting thier use seems better. It gives that feel that psionics is a gift. Arcana is common but unhealthy. Arcana should be ascsosiated with dangerous Vodo practices and hexes. (Seeing as they don't have many heal spells..) That's why it burns health points. Divine should be unreliable. Wether because Gods are not your dancing bear, or simply the fact that there's alot more complications to praising the patheons for guidance then you could understand, the fact remains not all spells are going to workout. This truth should apply to D&D, moreso infact, because without it what's the point of being anything BUT a caster??? It may seem like casters get a beating, but considering how most have other things as well. (Clerics have profficetcys and good hit die, druids have.. well everything..) They're really just becoming more even. The HP drop may seem like a hard pill to swallow at first, but when your levels start to gain The Koga garantees you you'll hardly notice, just don't go haywire with the high level spells. The point here is to make magick respectibul, dangerous, and difficult to master. Which would explain why not everyone and thier mother is a wizard or a cleric..
Arcade 09-14-05, 05:08 PM	The Koga should think about magic items- do they have the same limitations? Does using a wand of fireball cause hit point damage? Does a staff of healing have a failure chance? If I was a wizard, I would see about getting a cleric henchman with a wand of cure light wounds and then cast fireballs all day long. If I could get a regeneration spell on me, that would be pretty cool as well. Or if I was a mystic Theurge, I could be casting fireballs all the time and then using my cure spells to go back up to full. After all a 5th level cleric will likely heal back 10 points of damage with a cure light- that's good for 3 lightning bolts. So a 8th level character could start pulling this off (3 wiz, 3 cle, 2 mystic theurge) This system does help out fighter/spellcasters, but that's OK, because normally you would never multi-class a spellcaster so that's not such a bad thing. And many of the fighter/wizard prestige classes become attractive. One suggestion for addition is use of focus to help out spellcasters. For instance, have a magic staff that has a hit point reserve that arcane casters can use to cast spells from, or that reduces the amount of damage taken. Have holy relics or consecrated areas which make it more likely that a divine call is answered. Spells & Magic (2ed supplement) had a thing called conditional magic which may work for divine casting. It listed conditions which made your spells more or less powerful depending on the circumstance. For instance, if a cleric of Pelor was casting a daylight spell against vampires, he would have a better chance of receiving it than if he was trying to cast darkness. (daylight is in Pelor's spheres of influence and Pelor hates undead). A cleric of Moradin has a better chance of receiving a spell in an underground temple than in a forest. And so on. Sacrifices of money or objects help out as well.
Solik 09-14-05, 05:19 PM	The Koga has just made the Fighter/Wizard the greatest build in the game. Also, the Koga has guaranteed that no one will take a divine caster beyond second (or -maybe- third) level spells.
Koga:The ninja trick 09-14-05, 06:08 PM	The Koga has just made the Fighter/Wizard the greatest build in the game. Also, the Koga has guaranteed that no one will take a divine caster beyond second (or -maybe- third) level spells. Well that can be solved relatively easily too, just ban multiclassing/prestige classing. Or at the very least more harsher EXP penalties. Say double?
Solik 09-14-05, 06:35 PM	In that case, Solik thinks The Koga would be better off just handing the players their character sheets and telling them what powers they have.
Paul Hopebringer 09-14-05, 07:03 PM	Oh, ok. I knew that the Koga had a good feel for the game, but I thought the koga had gone into a rage and was trying to destroy magic. Maybe there is something to the system, though. Maybe as a core, the new system isn't to bad, but I think a few additions would be nice. Things that would make casting more viable, such as clerics being able to cast more powerful spells at a cost of some sort. Maybe spells that are levels above there wisdom modifier would have a greater percentage to fail. I think that some spellcasting related skills should affect what spells can be cast, seeing as how they are so very nerfed, a little bit of a random boost now and then wouldn't hurt things. Maybe a few feats would be in order, but I really don't think that having more feats is a good way to fix a "bad" system. Maybe there could be a system for gathering spell energies for divine spells. I would say taking two rounds would be enough to negate spell failure, but... I have a feeling that the Koga would favor a system more like...%20 percernt per round. Should the Koga disire, he might want to make it skillbased as well as time based. If I may, I would suggest the Koga make it something like "1% per skill point above the level of spell cast per round" I would also suggest that it follow the same rules for overcasting, which is an option I would include as a possiblity. I would limit overcasting to something reasonable, like the caster stat -10. That way, it is possible to always succfully cast whatever spell you want, but in the middle of combat, it is usually better to cast a spell quickly and risk failing. I like where this is heading, I hope the Koga can make a good system and that my ideas help him.
Koga:The ninja trick 09-15-05, 09:44 AM	Your system reminds The Koga of SW, but skill implmention is more difficult because you never know if you're being too harsh on the skill-check saves.. :( But you DID help The Koga now have a good weakness for the psionic class too! :) (Not that they needed much of a nerf, but so they don't look spectacular in comparison to spellcasters..) Psionics: All psionic classes choose either wisdom or intelligence as thier manifesting stat, they are carried with the same burden that thier highest manifesting level is equal to thier stat's modifier, but now, after manifesting a power, they must make a fortitude save of 20+the power's level. If they fail the save they become dazed for 1 round plus 1 more round for every power level beyond the first. (To a maximum of 3.) Figured that would be a good weakness because psychokinetics draws from the inner depths of the soul, risking spiritual exhaustion and all.. :)
CaoSlayer 09-15-05, 10:32 AM	curious nerf... As a nerf for bardīs casting, I would say to double this uses of bardic music per day but casting a spell will cost this level in diary bardic music uses.
Gilean 09-15-05, 11:51 AM	Well, balance was the primary onjective. The secondary objective was style. In spellcasting there is three forms of objective energy.Well, removing charisma still lacks sufficient rationale.Divine. (Gods, Godesses, etc.) Arcane. (The plants, the animals, the quantamn field.) The Self. (Psionics.)Not at all dissimilar to what I have done. Is the arcane thingy quantum field?Arcana is common but unhealthy. Arcana should be ascsosiated with dangerous Vodo practices and hexes. (Seeing as they don't have many heal spells..) That's why it burns health points.Fine. It is completely acceptable. I do dislike the spellslingers of D&D.Divine should be unreliable. Wether because Gods are not your dancing bear, or simply the fact that there's alot more complications to praising the patheons for guidance then you could understand, the fact remains not all spells are going to workout. This truth should apply to D&D, moreso infact, because without it what's the point of being anything BUT a caster???I can come up with a better one, IMHO. When a spell is cast, the deity reduces caster level when the spell is not in direct portfolio of said deity. Kind of waht arcade said. For a (lame) example, let us take Nerull. Anyone channeling Nerull's power towards killing something would be granted the power directly, no chances of failure, full power. The effect must be direct in effect. A poison, an infliction, harm. Buffing companions is not direct. Nor is cursing the opponents. Effects that have some sort of connection, but that are not directly tied with deity's portfolio, could work at 3/4 caster level (as cleric BAB). A touch of fatigue cast by Nerull's priest, for example. Effects not associated with the deity could work at half castr level. such as shield of faith. Spells opposed to deity shouldn't work at all, or at maximum at 1/4 caster level. such as said deity healing anything living.The point here is to make magick respectibul, dangerous, and difficult to master. Which would explain why not everyone and thier mother is a wizard or a cleric..Flat, unchanging spell failure is a bad thing. As I said before, reduce it by cleric's level (higher CL, more respect, trust and channeling ability one holds).
Paul Hopebringer 09-15-05, 02:27 PM	Charisma can be given something else to make it more powerful. It doesn't need spellcasting if the Koga feels that Charisma doesn't fit, but it does need something. Maybe the Koga would consider looking at action points (I'm familiar with the ones in Unearthed Arcana, but perhaps the ones in Eberron would work. Regardless, even if the Koga had neither, he could get a feel for them looking at the house rules presented in this forum.) I had an idea or two for additional uses for charisma (one of which was to use charisma as a base for action points), as did a few other people, maybe they would have more merit as a balanced addition when certain present powers are taken away from the game. Of corse, I would prefer to see what the Koga would do first, so I would give him the first go, and add on to it afterward if needed.
Koga:The ninja trick 09-15-05, 07:09 PM	Hmm... maybe feat and luck points? Each level, you gain a number of points based off the stat of your charisma -10. (For instance, if you have an 18 cha you gain 8 feat points) When you have 5 points you can gain a free feat of your choosing. There's so many feats this won't even unbalance the game and probably show what some can do but never had the oppurtunity to try, it also might explain charming people. Charisma can also be used once per day to add to any attack roll or saving throw a bonus equal to the cha modifier. You must declare this before you make the roll. How's that?
mecket 09-15-05, 07:50 PM	Hmm... maybe feat and luck points? Each level, you gain a number of points based off the stat of your charisma -10. (For instance, if you have an 18 cha you gain 8 feat points) When you have 5 points you can gain a free feat of your choosing. There's so many feats this won't even unbalance the game and probably show what some can do but never had the oppurtunity to try, it also might explain charming people. Charisma can also be used once per day to add to any attack roll or saving throw a bonus equal to the cha modifier. You must declare this before you make the roll. How's that? I dont know...maybe if you could pick some of the auras of the marshal(miniatures handbook) whith these points instead of feats(same cost only to minor auras or 10 points for a major). This way if you have high carisma you can motivate,charm or coordenate people better whitout having to pick bard levels. Just my:twocents: Cheers C
Paul Hopebringer 09-15-05, 07:56 PM	If the Koga feels that perminant feats would work, then the Koga is free to do so. I, however, don't know if that makes sense. Maybe someone could argue the point enough to change my mind, I'm fairly open minded, but as of yet, charm doesn't strike me as parallell to combat prowess... at least as far as combat goes. Luck, however, does seem to have a certain quality that would fit a little better in my mind with charisma... Some people would be pleased with some control over getting additional feats, though... so if the Koga can justify it (or doesn't feel the need to, because it is balanced and fun enhancing enough for it not to matter), then I support the option. Temporary "feat points" are covered by action points, so that particular aspect of it would be preserved... I feel *that* would work better. Maybe even the Marshal auras could be accessed by action points. Of course, that isn't core, so it wouldn't really be fair for it to be the only benifit, and having more or less options for action points doesn't really affect balance, as long as those options are for anybody who uses them. I would say that the modifiers worth of points would be generated each... day. If a day is too often... but no.
Gilean 09-16-05, 11:34 AM	How's that?Too much. Here are a few options, to be sued individually or in multiples: Key will saves to charisma and initiative to wisdom. An open feat slot for every N points of charisma, or charisma bonus. An open feat can be filled once a day as a full-round action by any feat the character has access to. The feat is lost when slepping but can be picked again next day. N, if it refers to charisma score, should be greater than 10 but lesser than 18. If it refers to bonus, 3 or greater would be appropriate.
Paul Hopebringer 09-19-05, 11:51 AM	Clerics should get free access to there domain spells. No chance of failure, and all that.
fnord 09-30-05, 08:07 AM	I think you need to rethink the way you "nerf" Arcane Spell casters. Unlimited spells per day, without a much bigger drawback, is a bad idea (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7294639). Now that I've won my custom avatar in the Break this House Rule Contest (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=503591), I thought I'd tell you that.
Koga:The ninja trick 10-01-05, 11:21 PM	Well, The Koga ended up keeping charisma and going with each stat casts from differant depth and is differant stat based. The only thing that remained was no spells per day. Arcana: (Int) Whenever an arcase caster casts a spell, they have a 25% chance of exprieincing "arcane burst" which makes them take X con damage. X is equal to the spell's level. This con damage go's away after 24 hours. Arcane spell-failure no longer applies. Sense arcane casters are SMART they know to be conservative with spells less they risk DIEING. Divine: (Wis) Divine casters have a 10% chance of spell-failure per spell level. So a level 9 spell has a 90% chance of failure where as a level 1 only has 10%. The wise know a little thing called hummilitey. Psionics: (Cha) A psionic after every power must make a fortitude save of 10+the power's level or become dazed for 1 round per 2 levels in a power. (So a level 1 power dazes you for one round, a level 9 power for 5 rounds..) You can still manifest powers when you run out of power points. You just can't implement power points into them to increase thier potency. A medium is well aware of how he was born with great power, but it's very taxing and could leave him vunerable. Some things were changed as well.. For one, sense a sorcerer is now int based, to rival with a wizard he needs something. That something is the battle-sorcerer varaint, and a bonus feat at 1st and every 5th level. Wizards now are just assumed to know all spells on the wizard/sorcerer list. Because the cloisterd cleric can't keepup with the regular cleric, he starts out automaticaly with all his dieties domains. And yes, a cleric MUST choose a patheon. He could choose not to have a diety and become an "agonostic", but then he gets no domains at all. Seems fair enough.. All casters cast instanously. Paladins/Rangers lose thier spells. But sense The Koga fealt paladins got shafted anyway, they get double the smites, where as rangers get a hit die of d10. Barbarians choose a totem animal like the totem variant at first level but retain older abilities. Fighters gain a bonus feat EVERY level. Where as the thug varaint has a hit die of d12, profficetcy with exotic weapons, and a bonus feat at 1st level as well. Spellthieves now automaticaly learn all spells of every class group (druid/cleric/wizard/bard) of levels 1-3. They're like the bluemage, they should have knowledge as such. So they also gain +2 on all knowledge skill checks. Pretty cool hunh? It was a power boost bassicaly. But considering the nitty gritty adventures The Koga tends to run, it won't hold a significant differance..
FlameLover 10-02-05, 12:49 AM	Ok, here goes: Paladins/Rangers: Lose their spells. (All paladin/cleric abilities are wisdom based.) I agree with this and is how i do it (in a round about way) in my own game. Wild Defender: Introduced in Dr@gon and loses spells. Wilderness Ranger: Introduced in Dr@gon, remains the same. Havn't heard of these before, no comment. Soulknife: Being the only psionic class allowed. Psionics and magick are considerd one and the same. Soulknives are intelligent or wisdom based. Your choice. If you're going to have Psionics you NEED to include the Psion and not the Soulknife. I would just make the Soulknife a feat-tree for Psions even. CHARISMA IS NO LONGER EXISTANT: The cha attribute is void and null. All casters that are cha-based come from either divine, psionic, or arcane heritage and are given either int/wis as thier primary stat accordingly.. All cha-based skills like diplomacy and bluff no longer have a modifier, simply have ranks applied like write/speak language.. Nope, i think Charisma should stay. Infact i feel that it should be tied to PSionics (As you say below). ARCANAE/DIVINE/PSIONICS: The main differance between them is wether they are from inner or outer powers. Arcane spell-failure no longer applies. Not sure about this no-ASF. It's a boon to Fighter/Wizard types but allowing casters to get essentially 9AC free seems a little over the top. ARCANA: Arcana comes from the quantamn field itself. As such, all arcane casters are considerd intelligent based, and thier penalty is with every spell cast lose X HP. The HP is equal to the spell's level, do to the body rejecting the energy that flows through them. No longer having "spells per day". (Now the maximum spell castable is not the stat of 10+ but rather the modifier. So a wizard with 18 int has a +4 modifier and therfore can only cast up to 4th level spells..) HP damage but no Spells Per Day? This is incredibly "t3h borkenes". Licukily you revise it later. DIVINE: Divine casters get thier spells from the gods and godesses. They don't have spells per day, but instead when they cast a spell, they have a percentage of spell failure based off the spell's leve times tenl. (For instance a first level spell has a 10% spell failure.) The reasoning behind this is patheons have trouble deleivering thier true power to worshippers because they rest on a tottaly differant dimension making the light travels difficult.. (Now the maxium spell castable is not the stat of 10+ but rather they modifier. So a cleric with 18 wis has a +4 modifer and therfore can only cast up to 4th level spells..) Agree with other posters, if you want to do this then make it decrease by CL. Also, the way you describe Divine magic makes it sound like they should be CHA based! I think that could be quite interesting actually (CHA for divine and WIS for Psionics). PSIONICS: Psionicists gain thier powers from the inner depths of one's soul and mind. They still have power points as before, but like arcane/divine casters now base thier maximum level on the modifier rather then the attribute number. All manifestors choose if thier power comes from wisdom or intelligence. (Though it rarely matters seeing as only soulknives and monsters are seen in-game..) Make it CHA or WIS (depends on what divine is) and include the Psion, not Soulknife. Divine. (Gods, Godesses, etc.) Arcane. (The plants, the animals, the quantamn field.) The Self. (Psionics.) Wait, are you saying Druids are Arcane casters?! I would define it that Divine is getting some other force (Deities, nature, outsiders, etc.) to help you (Whether through diplomacy, trickery or bribery). Arcane is tapping into the magic of the world around you and shaping it to your desire while Psionics is purley the power of the mind. This actually is how witches perseive the powers, perhaps they'd be done differantly If The Koga was applying it to real life, for instance psionics would be "the weakest", but sense psionics were a damn good system from the start, restricting thier use seems better. It gives that feel that psionics is a gift. I think all 3 systems should be equal in power, although that might just be me. Arcana is common but unhealthy. Arcana should be ascsosiated with dangerous Vodo practices and hexes. (Seeing as they don't have many heal spells..) That's why it burns health points. I agree that EVIL Arcane magic should corrupt and do all of that, but GOOD Arcane should be alot less... "unhealthy". I think all casters need a bit more flavour but this isn't the best way to do it i fear. There are enough people who wish to play Gandalf out there rather than Saruman you know ;) Divine should be unreliable. Wether because Gods are not your dancing bear, or simply the fact that there's alot more complications to praising the patheons for guidance then you could understand, the fact remains not all spells are going to workout. This truth should apply to D&D, moreso infact, because without it what's the point of being anything BUT a caster??? I don't like how divine is "always" diety based. Broaden the scope a little. And i agree with the other poster(s) who said the failure chance should decrease with level. It may seem like casters get a beating, but considering how most have other things as well. (Clerics have profficetcys and good hit die, druids have.. well everything..) They're really just becoming more even. The HP drop may seem like a hard pill to swallow at first, but when your levels start to gain The Koga garantees you you'll hardly notice, just don't go haywire with the high level spells. The point here is to make magick respectibul, dangerous, and difficult to master. Which would explain why not everyone and thier mother is a wizard or a cleric.. From a logical stand-point i 100% agree with you, if magic is so great why doesn't everyone know it? But then again it's like saying that electronics are so great, why doesn't everyone know how it works? Because it takes time, effort, and is often unrewarding. Justifying it like this makes as much sense as if every electritian took damage for just fixing up a couple of wires to use my earlier example! Well that can be solved relatively easily too, just ban multiclassing/prestige classing. Or at the very least more harsher EXP penalties. Say double? Ban multi-classing and PrCs? You have GOT to be taking the mickey. I might be bias though since i feel multi-classing shouldn't be restircted at all (just the classes themselves need better balance). Psionics: All psionic classes choose either wisdom or intelligence as thier manifesting stat, they are carried with the same burden that thier highest manifesting level is equal to thier stat's modifier, but now, after manifesting a power, they must make a fortitude save of 20+the power's level. If they fail the save they become dazed for 1 round plus 1 more round for every power level beyond the first. (To a maximum of 3.) Nope, sorry again this just doesn't make sense. Why fortitude? Why such a huge DC? Why the 3 round max? I would just make it take a long time to prepare a power for manifesting. Like it would take a number of full-rounds perparing equal to the power level. When you have 5 points you can gain a free feat of your choosing. There's so many feats this won't even unbalance the game and probably show what some can do but never had the oppurtunity to try, it also might explain charming people. Why in all that is holy should you get bonus feats for being CHARISMATIC?! Am i the only one who thinks if you're going to do this it should be based on INTELLIGENCE?! *phew* Ok, calm now. But seriously, i don't get this. WTF? Next you'll say you should be able to use Charisma to get a bonus on an attack roll or saving throw! Oh, wait... Charisma can also be used once per day to add to any attack roll or saving throw a bonus equal to the cha modifier. You must declare this before you make the roll. :| Arcana: (Int) Whenever an arcase caster casts a spell, they have a 25% chance of exprieincing "arcane burst" which makes them take X con damage. X is equal to the spell's level. This con damage go's away after 24 hours. Arcane spell-failure no longer applies. Sense arcane casters are SMART they know to be conservative with spells less they risk DIEING. A flat 25%? If you're sure you want to do this i would make it 5% per spell level (so casting cantrips is completley safe while you're almost 50/50 with a 9th level spell). Divine: (Wis) Divine casters have a 10% chance of spell-failure per spell level. So a level 9 spell has a 90% chance of failure where as a level 1 only has 10%. The wise know a little thing called hummilitey. A 90% spell failure is 9/10. That means 9 out of every 10 level 9 spells i cast will fizzle out?! Sorry, but i would rather play a Bard with a CHA of 3. Psionics: (Cha) A psionic after every power must make a fortitude save of 10+the power's level or become dazed for 1 round per 2 levels in a power. (So a level 1 power dazes you for one round, a level 9 power for 5 rounds..) You can still manifest powers when you run out of power points. You just can't implement power points into them to increase thier potency. A medium is well aware of how he was born with great power, but it's very taxing and could leave him vunerable. Better than before but still totally wrong in my eyes. Again, why fort? Why backlash? Why the per 2 spell levels? It feels like you want something really limiting yet you basically allow a level 9 power every round as long as you can make the save! For one, sense a sorcerer is now int based, to rival with a wizard he needs something. That something is the battle-sorcerer varaint, and a bonus feat at 1st and every 5th level. If you make the Sorceror Int based just remove it all together. It just becomes a Wizard "alternate" and could easily be expressed with just a feat or two. Wizards now are just assumed to know all spells on the wizard/sorcerer list. :OMG! :doh: Need i say more? Because the cloisterd cleric can't keepup with the regular cleric, he starts out automaticaly with all his dieties domains. And yes, a cleric MUST choose a patheon. He could choose not to have a diety and become an "agonostic", but then he gets no domains at all. Seems fair enough.. Fair? I don't know what you're on but i want some. Seriously, you give Clerics who choose a deity 3-6 domains (with spells AND powers!) Yet deity-less Clerics get the shaft even more? Wow, just wow. All casters cast instanously. Wait, do you mean spontaneuosly or no casting times? If you mean all spontaneus then i agree, that's what i'm doing for my current RPG/CS i'm working on. But if you mean no casting times... again, wow. Paladins/Rangers lose thier spells. But sense The Koga fealt paladins got shafted anyway, they get double the smites, where as rangers get a hit die of d10. Why should a Ranger get more HP? And neither of these constitutes an equivelant trade for casting. Both of these classes are well balanced as-is, and you're nerfing them. Barbarians choose a totem animal like the totem variant at first level but retain older abilities. Do you mean they get totem powers AND all the stuff they get normally? Again, wow. But if they just use the totem variant with some tweaks i'll give you the thumbs up on this one, Barbs need moire options. Fighters gain a bonus feat EVERY level. Where as the thug varaint has a hit die of d12, profficetcy with exotic weapons, and a bonus feat at 1st level as well. . . . Take my earlier "wow"s and multiply by infinity. Rinse and repeat. Spellthieves now automaticaly learn all spells of every class group (druid/cleric/wizard/bard) of levels 1-3. They're like the bluemage, they should have knowledge as such. So they also gain +2 on all knowledge skill checks. Allow spell thieves to cast both Arcane and Divine isn't a good idea. If they want both, multiclass. Pretty cool hunh? It was a power boost bassicaly. But considering the nitty gritty adventures The Koga tends to run, it won't hold a significant differance.. Power boost? Sorry, but no. I'm sorry for sounding so rough, i agree with what you are trying to do and i like the idea of "backlash". But i feel that it needs to be done very differently. I think you should only get backlash if you push yourself, you go beyond what you normally can and should. I would just allow all casters to overchannel basically. But the best solution i still think is re-working the spells known and spells per day table to increase the number of low-level spells and decrease the high-level ones, capping at levle 7 spells before Epic. That or just removing full casters and making Paladins, Rangers and Bards the only casters.
Lina_Inverse 10-02-05, 04:32 AM	*cough* nerfing level 1 sorcerers is not balence.
fnord 10-02-05, 10:19 PM	If you want it to be a power boost, fine. But you're really boosting the power of spellcasters. Especially arcane and psionics. After you're newest change, Break This Houserule: Medea Thistlehand (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7294639) works exactly the same way, with exactly the same insane power as before. Any Psion, under your system, will be able to throw 9th level powers all day. +6 base +5 Cloak of Resistance, +1 Stone of Good Luck +2 Great Fortitude +4 Constitution means only failing on a one, and is easily accomplished.
Archtyrant Terevoth 10-03-05, 03:58 PM	I just don't see this "fix" actually solving anything. In fact, it's going to cause several unique problems. -A first level cleric can cast an infinite number of cure light wounds spells granting effective infinite healing. -With infinite healing, the hp cost to wizards casting non-combat spells becomes moot, meaning wizards can fire off as many noncombat spells as they want all day long and not care. In any system with hp costs for spellcasting, you simply cannot have healing magic at all. -A high cleric fails 90% of the time when trying to invoke a miracle. I can't see clerics being useful at all in combat at higher levels, since there's a 50%+ chance they do nothing at all every round. -With no ASF, there's no reason every wizard wouldn't want to be decked out in heavy armor and carrying tower shields, regardless of if they were proficient with it or not.
Lina_Inverse 10-05-05, 10:06 AM	Koga i seriously think you have no idea what your doing now. X CON damage? the wizard is worthless now. Not balenced, worthless. Useing your only capability in the entire game should not kill you. a Average wizard at lvl20 will take 9*4 36 con damage. He will die EVERY adventureing day unless he has a 37 con. Clerics are nearly as bad, they will in an average day if ALL they do is cast spells they will get off about 1-2 spells. Thats it nothing else. Psions laugh at your defect, buy up there fort save and go to town. Espilly considering they can cast lvl9 spells all day everyday at much lower penalty to the other two.
slimgoodbody 11-23-05, 03:31 AM	I have to believe that this entire thread is some kind of elaborate joke. The nonsensical houserules, the fact that so many people are agreeing with them, the strangeness of everyone, including the original poster, calling him "The Koga" instead of just "Koga"... It really just has to be a damn funny joke. Cause if it isn't, this is probably the worst idea I've ever witness mutilate the still-warm corpse of Dungeons and Dragons. edit: Come by the CO board if you think melee characters are "left out."
syntaxerror37 11-23-05, 06:35 PM	If this is an elaborate joke, then good work, it's funny and clever. However if this is not a joke, congratulations, you've just ruined D&D.
weasel fierce 11-24-05, 12:44 AM	However if this is not a joke, congratulations, you've just ruined D&D. Sweet.