Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Szatany 07-19-05, 02:46 PM	Ok, I'm about to start a WoW game and I though that I'll try new multiclassing rules. Basically what I try to accomplish with this is a system where characters grow more powerful, but mostly by gaining new abilities, not improving their BAB, saves, HP, etc. ad infinitum. 1. XP and levels. Before I proceed to description of multiclassing rules, this is necessary introduction. Accumulation of xp and levels doesn't work exacly the same way as in normal d20. First of all, whatever xp award system is used, a player should gain roughly 1,000 xp per session. Tweaked CR rules are presented in point 3. Since we have determined how fast a character advances, we can now proceed to modified XP table. Level XP needed 1 1,000 2 3,000 3 6,000 4 10,000 5 15,000 6 21,000 7 28,000 8 36,000 9 45,000 10 55,000 As you can see, this table looks rather similar, but the main difference is the fact that it will take a player increasing number of sessions to get to next levels (Exaclty a # of sessions equal to the level he wants to achieve). Of course the table can be meddled with, lowering or upping (not recommended) XP required. You also noticed that it only goes to level 10. Yupp thats right, in this system you cannot go beyond magic ten. Table starts with 1000 xp. That what you begin with if you start play at 1st level. Why not zero? It will be clear in a moment. 2. Multiclassing. Ok, so now that I explained new system of amassing xp, its time to explain what you can do with it. As long as you have only one class, everything is just like normal, except the fact that you will only score 10 levels. You can have more than one class and its now much easier to do this. When you decide to have more classes, you create second xp pool and start assigning your xp to it. Each of your classes has its own xp and levels. When you gain xp, you can put it into any class in any combination you like. Once you gain first 1,000 xp in your new class, you have 1st level in it. This means that you could theoretically have any number of classes, if not for limitation (see below). 2.1. So now that you know you can buy levels in new classes faster than your old class, you surely wonder what's keeping you from just having bunch of classes at low levels? Well, there are 2 severe limitations. 1st, you cannot have more than one class at the same time that is not your favorite class. That prevents characters with many many classes at 1st level. This limitation could be relaxed to 2 classes ATST, but more defeats its point. 2nd, same benefits from more than one class do not stack. This means that you only gain best BAB, saves, and HP from each class. This means that a fighter 6/barbarin 5 will have BAB of 6. HP require some more explanation. HP: Each time you gain hit points, you roll a die and add the result to your HP, as normal. But you also write down what you rolled in a special table that has 10 fields, for one best result of each level. Next time you gain the same level in another class, you roll for that class again, and if you roll higher, your HP improve. For example, if you gained 2nd level of fighter class (you didn't have any classes before) and rolled 4, you write it down and add 4 to your HP. If you later gained 2nd level of ranger and rolled 8, you change the 4 in table for 8, so your HP improve by 4. 2.2. You gain skill points from each level of each class, so your skills can improve infinitely, but your maximum skill rank is equal to 3+your higher class level (half of that for cross-class skills), so you will never have more than 13 ranks in a single skill. Guess those skill focuses might become valuable now. You gain extra skill points at 1st level of the first class (and only then). Instead of simply multiplying starting SP by 4, use the following: First class has 2 sp/level: (2+Int mod) x4 + 12 First class has 4 sp/level: (4+Int mod) x4 + 8 First class has 6 sp/level: (6+Int mod) x4 + 4 First class has 8 sp/level: (8+Int mod) x4 That way there is still a difference between classes in starting skill points, but its smaller. It prevents players from always picking 1 level or a rogue just for load of skill points. 2.3. Level-dependant benefits: Due to unique multiclassing rules, this table from PHB needs some changes. First of all, there aren't any more character levels, ECLs, or LAs. For all purposes, your level (or your HD) is equal to your highest class level. Each of the following sentences applies to each class seprartely, unless where noted otherwise (*). You gain bonus feat at levels 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 9th. You gain this feat with every class, so you can have truly big list of feats, given time. *You gain a bonus feat at 1st level, but only once. *You gain 4x number of skill points at 1st level + some bonus (see 2.2), but only with your 1st class. You gain bonus 1 point on ability score of your choice at levels 4th, 7th, and 10th. You gain this bonus every class. Note that some feats will be removed from the game due to their prerequisites. For example greater weapon specialization and greater two-weapon fighting. Whenever you gain 10th level of any class, this class becomes your favored class so you can now have one more. 2.4. Prestige classes: Its very simple really. Treat them like normal classes that can only be taken if you meet the requirements. When you do, you can start a prestige class from level one for measily 1,000 xp. There are only few PrCs that require you to have more than 10 levels. Those can either be tweaked to require 10 levels, or more preferably, to require 10 levels in one class and few in other. Or they can be droped altogether. All classes that improve two classes at faster rate (mystic theurge and his gang) have no place in this system. 2.5. Racial levels: This concept proves to be problematic. You could treat racial levels just like any other class, thus making their abilites not-stackable. You could make them stackable, but charge them with more xp, so for example, 1st level or racial class would cost 5,000 xp, but its BAB and saves would stack with classes. The benefit of the second option is the fact that it will better portay the power of races. After all, if there are two 10-level fighters, and one is a ogre, he should be clearly more powerful. The dark side is that I don't really know if 5000 xp is a good number, that such mechanic will ultimately make powerful races the best in the game because they are the only ones that can break the limit, and it makes already problematic CR estimation go nuts. 3. CR system. Well, first of all the CR won't work too well with this system. As long as a character as only one class it will be fine. But as soon as you add classes it becomes flawed unless you use precautions. My (unplaytested) advice is to treat levels of 2nd class as worth only 1/4 of normal levels, and levels of next classes at even lower value. Also the strength of players' equipment must be taken into consideration, as they will undoubtly improve their magic items, while gaining those new low levels. My best advice is just to guesstimate the challange a monster will provide based on the group's composition and levels. Remeber that players will probably not be able to beat monsters with CR 15 or higher (unless they have VERY powerful magic items), simply because the gap in abilities' CRs, attacks' bonuses, and spells' saves becomes too big. Since a player only gains 1,000 xp per session, new method of determining how much xp should a slain enemy yeld needs to be determined. its quite simple (assuming you can make CR system work at all, but it isn't that hard on the other hand): a single monster is worth 200 xp if its CR is equal to the level of player's character. For every point of differect, either add or substract 40 xp. Of course you can change this if you want your players to advance mainly thanks to battles or if you value mostly roleplaying aspect of the game. If you don't like original CR at all, you can just give xp based on your feeling how easily the group defeated monster. For example, if they barely survived, give them 400 xp (divided between players). If they didn't break a sweat, give them 80 xp. 4. Pros and Cons. 4.1. Strong points of this system: - prevents players from becoming ungodly powerful, but allows them to advance and be better as long as they want at the same time. This could be invaluable in some games, like Call of Cthulhu or D20 modern, basically everywhere, where someone who can survive falling from the plane is problematic to explain. You also never reach levels of insane math, where you have to roll 25d6 for spell damage, etc. and this also means game will not slow down to crawl (at least in my epic games it used to). - some hazards and monsters will always be deadly, no matter how far they advance. - previously underdog feats, such as skill focus and toughness, will become more desirable once the players hit their maximum HP/ranks. And you gain more feats in this system too. - overpowered and underpowered classes are easy to adjust. Just charge less or more xp when a player takes them. For example, with this system you could make a commoner a viable class by reducing his required xp by 60%. Hammer of Moradin (THE most overpowered class I had pleasure DMing) could be fixed simply by require double amount of xp to advance in. 4.2. Shortcomings of this system: - racial levels are problematic in this system. - after time, CR system will become useless as a mathematical tool and only be useful as a hint of the monster's threat value. 5. Mutators. Mutators are optional rules you can insert into the system, but it can work just fine without them. 5.1. Multiclass spellcaster: You keep your spellcasting classes separate, but there is one exception. If you can cast (you have it learned or known, not necessarily prepared) the same spell with two of your classes, the spell uses better caster level of both classes. For example, if you have 10 levels of wizard and charm person is in your spellbook, and you take 1st level of sorcerer and choose charm person again, you cast your sorcerer charm person at 10th caster level. 5.2. Free-form feats: Under this variant, you can buy feats with experience points. You no longer gain feats as you advance in levels (you however retain your free feat at 1st level of 1st class). Instead, you can buy a feat for a number of xp, from 1000 (for least feats like endurance) to 2000 (improved two-weapon fighting). This number should be dependant on average amount of xp gained on sessions. If DM gives increasing number of xp, cost should increase for each feat bought. DM can also set more complex rules of pricing feats, dependant on prerequisites, for example.
Fargren 07-19-05, 03:04 PM	2.3. Level-dependant benefits: Due to unique multiclassing rules, this table from PHB needs some changes. You gain bonus feat at levels 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 9th. You gain this feat with every class, so you can have truly big list of feats, given time. You gain a bonus feat at 1st level, but only once. You gain 4x number of skill points at 1st level, but only with your 1st class. You gain bonus 1 point on ability score of your choice at levels 4th, 7th, and 10th. You gain this bonus every class. Note that some feats will be removed from the game due to their prerequisites. For example greater weapon specialization and greater two-weapon fighting. Ok, I don't get this. Are you talking about class levels or character levels? Because th table in the PHB is about character levle, but you seems to be talking about character level, and that's damn confusiong. You are not changing the table, you are removing it and creating a new one, that talks about other stuff.
Szatany 07-19-05, 03:06 PM	Ok, I don't get this. Are you talking about class levels or character levels? Because th table in the PHB is about character levle, but you seems to be talking about character level, and that's damn confusiong. You are not changing the table, you are removing it and creating a new one, that talks about other stuff. I'm talking about class levels, there no such thing anymore as character level, ECL, or LA.
rbrt_Spade 07-19-05, 04:30 PM	live on raw! :)
Szatany 07-19-05, 04:59 PM	live on raw! :) Can't do. I like my meat roasted.
Elvintry 07-20-05, 12:44 AM	what about gestalt classing? How would you fit that into the system or would it fit?
Szatany 07-20-05, 02:10 AM	No gestalts with this system, they don't fit at all, just like MT. That's because all characters become sort of gestalts over time.
Fargren 07-20-05, 02:58 PM	Thanks for the editing. I like the system, but it will be REALLY hard for you to asignate encounters...Good luck anyway
Gilean 07-21-05, 03:18 AM	:clap: This is just beautiful. Amazing. I was thinking of something similar, which will change. I'll present the current changes I have in mind. Ok, I'm about to start a WoW game and I though that I'll try new multiclassing rules. Basically what I try to accomplish with this is a system where characters grow more powerful, but mostly by gaining new abilities, not improving their BAB, saves, HP, etc. ad infinitum.A worthy goal, to be sure.1. XP and levels. Before I proceed to description of multiclassing rules, this is necessary introduction. Accumulation of xp and levels doesn't work exacly the same way as in normal d20. First of all, whatever xp award system is used, a player should gain roughly 1,000 xp per session. Tweaked CR rules are presented in point 3. Since we have determined how fast a character advances, we can now proceed to modified XP table. Level XP needed 1 1,000 2 3,000 3 6,000 4 10,000 5 15,000 6 21,000 7 28,000 8 36,000 9 45,000 10 55,000 As you can see, this table looks rather similar, but the main difference is the fact that it will take a player increasing number of sessions to get to next levels (Exaclty a # of sessions equal to the level he wants to achieve). Of course the table can be meddled with, lowering or upping (not recommended) XP required. You also noticed that it only goes to level 10. Yupp thats right, in this system you cannot go beyond magic ten. Table starts with 1000 xp. That what you begin with if you start play at 1st level. Why not zero? It will be clear in a moment.I'll remove the level cap.2. Multiclassing. Ok, so now that I explained new system of amassing xp, its time to explain what you can do with it. As long as you have only one class, everything is just like normal, except the fact that you will only score 10 levels. You can have more than one class and its now much easier to do this. When you decide to have more classes, you create second xp pool and start assigning your xp to it. Each of your classes has its own xp and levels. When you gain xp, you can put it into any class in any combination you like. Once you gain first 1,000 xp in your new class, you have 1st level in it. This means that you could theoretically have any number of classes, if not for limitation (see below).Pretty much goes unchaged. Maybe some ad hoc limitations on where the exp can be placed. For example, if someone spends a lot of time in the woods, better take barbarian, ranger, druid etc. experience instead of fighter, or bard.2.1. So now that you know you can buy levels in new classes faster than your old class, you surely wonder what's keeping you from just having bunch of classes at low levels? Well, there are 2 severe limitations. 1st, you cannot have more than one class at the same time that is not your favorite class. That prevents characters with many many classes at 1st level. This limitation could be relaxed to 2 classes ATST, but more defeats its point.I probably will scrap the limit. Though not sure yet.2nd, same benefits from more than one class do not stack. This means that you only gain best BAB, saves, and HP from each class. This means that a fighter 6/barbarin 5 will have BAB of 6. HP and spells require some more explanation.This is the brilliant part.- HP: Each time you gain hit points, you roll a die and add the result to your HP, as normal. But you also write down what you rolled in a special table that has 10 fields, for one best result of each level. Next time you gain the same level in another class, you roll for that class again, and if you roll higher, your HP improve. For example, if you gained 2nd level of fighter class (you didn't have any classes before) and rolled 4, you write it down and add 4 to your HP. If you later gained 2nd level of ranger and rolled 8, you change the 4 in table for 8, so your HP improve by 4.As is this.- Spells: Generally, you keep your spellcasting classes separate, but there is one exception. If you can cast (you have it learned or known, not necessarily prepared) the same spell with two of your classes, the spell uses better caster level of both classes. For example, if you have 10 levels of wizard and charm person is in your spellbook, and you take 1st level of sorcerer and choose charm person again, you cast your sorcerer charm person at 10th caster level.Probably scrapped.2.2. You gain skill points from each level of each class, so your skills can improve infinitely, but your maximum skill rank is equal to 3+your higher class level (half of that for cross-class skills), so you will never have more than 13 ranks in a single skill. Guess those skill focuses might become valuable now.This allows skilled academics without great battle prowess. Good thing.2.3. Level-dependant benefits: Due to unique multiclassing rules, this table from PHB needs some changes. First of all, there aren't any more character levels, ECLs, or LAs. For all purposes, your level (or your HD) is equal to your highest class level. Each of the following sentences applies to each class seprartely, unless where noted otherwise (*). You gain bonus feat at levels 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 9th. You gain this feat with every class, so you can have truly big list of feats, given time. *You gain a bonus feat at 1st level, but only once. *You gain 4x number of skill points at 1st level, but only with your 1st class. You gain bonus 1 point on ability score of your choice at levels 4th, 7th, and 10th. You gain this bonus every class.ECL and LA I am already removing, so no problem there. Feats will accumulate at standard speed, as will ability boni.Note that some feats will be removed from the game due to their prerequisites. For example greater weapon specialization and greater two-weapon fighting. Whenever you gain 10th level of any class, this class becomes your favored class so you can now have one more.Scrapped.2.4. Prestige classes: Its very simple really. Treat them like normal classes that can only be taken if you meet the requirements. When you do, you can start a prestige class from level one for measily 1,000 xp. There are only few PrCs that require you to have more than 10 levels. Those can either be tweaked to require 10 levels, or more preferably, to require 10 levels in one class and few in other. Or they can be droped altogether.Experience requirements for prestige classes will be doubled (at least). Those of NPC classes will be reduced to 3/4ths of normal. Commoner will require half the experience.All classes that improve two classes at faster rate (mystic theurge and his gang) have no place in this system.Possibly scrapped.2.5. Racial levels: This concept proves to be problematic. You could treat racial levels just like any other class, thus making their abilites not-stackable. You could make them stackable, but charge them with more xp, so for example, 1st level or racial class would cost 5,000 xp, but its BAB and saves would stack with classes. The benefit of the second option is the fact that it will better portay the power of races. After all, if there are two 10-level fighters, and one is a ogre, he should be clearly more powerful. The dark side is that I don't really know if 5000 xp is a good number, that such mechanic will ultimately make powerful races the best in the game because they are the only ones that can break the limit, and it makes already problematic CR estimation go nuts.I am making racial classes for all races (yeah, like I would have the patience...) with no LAs. Some will be templated completely, such as undead (most, not nightshades, for example). Ogre class will increase str and con, or at least allow possibilities to do it (the racial levels are modeled after ultimate classes). Thus, even if ogre only has 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, ogre fighter or barbarian will have full BAB/HD and the stat boosts from ogre.3. CR system. Well, first of all the CR won't work too well with this system. As long as a character as only one class it will be fine. But as soon as you add classes it becomes flawed unless you use precautions. My (unplaytested) advice is to treat levels of 2nd class as worth only 1/4 of normal levels, and levels of next classes at even lower value. Also the strength of players' equipment must be taken into consideration, as they will undoubtly improve their magic items, while gaining those new low levels. My best advice is just to guesstimate the challange a monster will provide based on the group's composition and levels. Remeber that players will probably not be able to beat monsters with CR 15 or higher (unless they have VERY powerful magic items), simply because the gap in abilities' CRs, attacks' bonuses, and spells' saves becomes too big.Would full levelī, half the levels of second class, one third of third class, etc. work?Since a player only gains 1,000 xp per session, new method of determining how much xp should a slain enemy yeld needs to be determined. its quite simple (assuming you can make CR system work at all, but it isn't that hard on the other hand): a single monster is worth 200 xp if its CR is equal to the level of player's character. For every point of differect, either add or substract 40 xp. Of course you can change this if you want your players to advance mainly thanks to battles or if you value mostly roleplaying aspect of the game. If you don't like original CR at all, you can just give xp based on your feeling how easily the group defeated monster. For example, if they barely survived, give them 400 xp (divided between players). If they didn't break a sweat, give them 80 xp.Experience will be given ad hoc.- prevents players from becoming ungodly powerful, but allows them to advance and be better as long as they want at the same time. This could be invaluable in some games, like Call of Cthulhu or D20 modern, basically everywhere, where someone who can survive falling from the plane is problematic to explain. You also never reach levels of insane math, where you have to roll 25d6 for spell damage, etc. and this also means game will not slow down to crawl (at least in my epic games it used to).Scrapped.- some monsters will be simply unbeatable without artifacts and epic items. This is advantage from DM's point of view.Can be achieved normally through high CRs.- previously underdog feats, such as skill focus and toughness, will become more desirable once the players hit their maximum HP/ranks. And you gain more feats in this system too.Partially true for me, though skill focus will probably be taken.- as first pros, so make sure that your players like this system and don't want to player epic characters.Scrapped.- racial levels are problematic in this system.Scrapped.- after time, CR system will become useless as a mathematical tool and only be useful as a hint of the monster's threat value.Nothing new, actually. You have my deepest respects, Szatany :bow: Consider this sigged.
Gilean 07-21-05, 03:59 AM	I just had an interesting idea: Ultimate adventurer, 3 classes, allow it to be taken multiple times, the ultimate gestalt, says I. Now, the point. You could very well allow one to take same class multiple times, only gaining class features that are genuinely different, at least if using ultimate classes. For example, Druid [underground, shepherd of stones] 7 and, after starting to travel, druid [no terrain, was it travelling druid?; summoner to not feel so lonely] would not gain more skill points, spells (perhaps the cap of twenty could improve?, or the like, but would have benefits of both specialisations.
Gilean 07-25-05, 01:38 PM	How do you deal with intelligence modifiers to skill points? Does it have an effect once, or always?
Szatany 07-25-05, 01:45 PM	How do you deal with intelligence modifiers to skill points? Does it have an effect once, or always? Always, every time you gain skill points you modify them with your INT mod. And you gain skill points EVERY TIME you gain a level.
Fargren 07-25-05, 05:15 PM	Always, every time you gain skill points you modify them with your INT mod. And you gain skill points EVERY TIME you gain a level. Wouldn't here be a pointin wich all characters have all skills maxed up? As a matter os fact, wouldn't there be a point in wich al characters without PrCs would have to be almost exactly equal?
Gilean 07-26-05, 03:04 AM	Wouldn't here be a pointin wich all characters have all skills maxed up? As a matter os fact, wouldn't there be a point in wich al characters without PrCs would have to be almost exactly equal?In theory, no. There are (nigh-)infinite amounts of crafts, profession, performs and knowledges.Always, every time you gain skill points you modify them with your INT mod. And you gain skill points EVERY TIME you gain a level.Human, starting int 18, and a rogue at that. Starts with 13 maxed skills. Multiclasses as bard (or expert or PHB ranger), 24 maxed skills. If all skill groups are counted as single skills, there are a total of 36 skills. The above is truly not bad for only 1000 experience. If the rule is relaxed, or feats adding more favored classes allowed, take another level of one of the forementioned classes for a grand total of 35 maxed skills. Not bad at all. I am considering to only have intelligence modifier have an effect once. But, if target gets only 2 skill points and has intelligence of 3, the remaining penalty applies to next skill points. So, 1 skill per level, and if next level would grant 4, only 1 is gained, again. But all skills are gained from all classes thereafter. This does carry a few prolems, such as the order in which classes are taken having significant effect on where skill points can be placed as class skills.
Szatany 07-26-05, 11:06 AM	Human, starting int 18, and a rogue at that. Starts with 13 maxed skills. Multiclasses as bard (or expert or PHB ranger), 24 maxed skills. Remember that you gain x4 skill points only with 1st class. Also, since the player knows he will eventually gain very high amount of skill points, it's likely that he puts that 18 into more useful stat. If all skill groups are counted as single skills, there are a total of 36 skills.But they are not :)
Lina_Inverse 07-26-05, 06:04 PM	oooo i like i really do.id only make a few quick alterations. multible casters dont stack for mp(i always use mp nowadays),youll just get more spells preped and more versitility.or perhaps half of mp stacks but i fear uber casters who cant run out of spells that way. you only get half a classes skillpoints unless its your highest. int is retroactive but only applys to highest(like con,but i always make int retroactive :P)
Gilean 07-27-05, 02:12 AM	Of course. I will probably enter a limitation bit like yours, but it can't work the same as there is no level cap. I'll explain it through an example. We have an elven wizard 3. The elf wants to learn a bit of fighting, and multiclasses as wizard 3 fighter 2. At this point the elf notes how distasteful mere killing is, and starts to seek a more natural way of fighting, taking a level of ranger. Elf wizard 3 fighter 2 ranger 1. The elf can't take more ranger levels because the ranger level is already half of the fighter level (another nonfavoured class). And the elf can't start taking other nonfavoured levels because half of the ranger level is 0. So the elf must take levels in either wizard or fighter. Because the elf knows multiclassing rules, a level of wizard that is. Wizard 4 fighter 2 ranger 1 Now, fighter level is only half of the wizard level. At this point, the elf can take ranger levels again. So, the elf happily becomes Wizard 4 ranger 4 fighter 2 Now, the elf could start taking levels in another nonfavoured class, because the lowest favoured class is 2. Taking another level of fighter would require either 2 levels of ranger (half of 6 is 3) or 4 levels of wizard (so that ranger level only is half of wizard levels). Quite obscure? In essence, anyone can have as many levels in favoured and racial classes as anyone wants, in limits of experience, of course. 1 nonfavoured class can be taken to any level, no limits here. If second nonfavoured class is learned, it can only have half the levels of first nonfavoured class. If 3rd nonfavoured class is learned, it can only have half the levels of second nonfavoured class. Etc. But, just in the case of someone wishing to change the order of nonfavoured classes, if first nonfavoured class is only half, or less, of highest class (which must be favoured or racial), second class can be increased to double the level of previous first nonfavoured class. Once this has started, it must be finished. Also note that prestige classes are never favoured. What a pity, a limit to level dipping. How unfortunate.
Fuzzy_Logic 07-30-05, 08:12 AM	excess skill aren't really a problem unless one deliberately multiclasses heavily among high-skill classes. if one simply raises a few levels in rogue first, say to rogue 3, then takes a level of bard, the bard skill points apply to a max rank of 6, lessening the problem. another possible fix would be to create a feat which increased the character's max skill rank by 1.
Szatany 07-30-05, 10:38 AM	excess skill aren't really a problem unless one deliberately multiclasses heavily among high-skill classes. if one simply raises a few levels in rogue first, say to rogue 3, then takes a level of bard, the bard skill points apply to a max rank of 6, lessening the problem. another possible fix would be to create a feat which increased the character's max skill rank by 1. I have another suggestion for anyone who thinks a character could have too many skill points: House Rule: You can spend 4 skill points on a single skill you have at least one rank with. Put asterisk next to this skill. For each asterisk you can re-roll one check of this skill. Each skill can have a number of asterisks equal to its ranks or less. You can do that with more than one skill.
Sildatorak 08-02-05, 01:11 AM	I like this idea and have just a few suggestions. I'd scrap the limit on how many classes you can take or set it at 2+favored class. Since you are only going to be gaining hp, saves, and BAB to appreciable levels by increasing your highest level there is a built in incentive to put xp toward the highest level class you have. I would increase the max level to 11th so that taking the last 4 levels of fighter type classes is worth it. That way the only way to get 3 attacks per round is to take a full BAB class to the top of the progression and taking a non-spontaneous caster to 11 will let you get 6th level spells, though you'll never have many per day. Perhaps 12th should be the cap so that non-sponts can get 6th levels also. I'd also suggest that you put something about only receiving max hp at first level with the first class you take or else everyone will take rogue first even if they don't plan on taking it clear up. One thing you might want to deal with is how PrC's that improve spellcasting level interact with spellcasters who are already 10th level. I'd suggest that they don't get any new spells per day but still get increased caster level and/or new spells known.
Szatany 08-02-05, 09:14 AM	I like this idea and have just a few suggestions. I'd scrap the limit on how many classes you can take or set it at 2+favored class. Since you are only going to be gaining hp, saves, and BAB to appreciable levels by increasing your highest level there is a built in incentive to put xp toward the highest level class you have.Perhaps, I like to limit # of classes my players can have but if you don't, you can lift the limit. I would increase the max level to 11th so that taking the last 4 levels of fighter type classes is worth it. That way the only way to get 3 attacks per round is to take a full BAB class to the top of the progression and taking a non-spontaneous caster to 11 will let you get 6th level spells, though you'll never have many per day. Perhaps 12th should be the cap so that non-sponts can get 6th levels also.You can do that (you can limit your game at any level you wish, I was making rules for low-level games and 10th level seemed like good barrier). Just remeber that only core classes have more than 10 levels, so prestige classes can't go to the end of the scale. You can also introduce feats that give 3rd attack or 6th-level spells, for example: Fast Attack Prerequisites: BAB +10 from 2 classes. Benefit: You gain 3rd attack in a round when you use full attack action. That attack is made with -10 penalty. One thing you might want to deal with is how PrC's that improve spellcasting level interact with spellcasters who are already 10th level. I'd suggest that they don't get any new spells per day but still get increased caster level and/or new spells known. I was thinking that when you gain levels in prestige class that improves your spellcasting you instead gain spell slots as if you took your original class once again. For example wizard 5 has slots: 4/3/2/1. Wizard 5/Loremaster 5 will have 8/6/4/2. Caster level or bonus slots from high ability score do not stack.
Gilean 08-04-05, 10:31 AM	I was thinking that when you gain levels in prestige class that improves your spellcasting you instead gain spell slots as if you took your original class once again. For example wizard 5 has slots: 4/3/2/1. Wizard 5/Loremaster 5 will have 8/6/4/2. Caster level or bonus slots from high ability score do not stack.I'd say do that after caster level tries to jump past character level, not earlier. So, a rogue 10 wizard 5 PrC 5 would cast as 10th level wizard, but another level of wizard or PrC would invoke the rule you wrote.
Szatany 08-15-05, 07:06 AM	I'd say do that after caster level tries to jump past character level, not earlier. So, a rogue 10 wizard 5 PrC 5 would cast as 10th level wizard, but another level of wizard or PrC would invoke the rule you wrote. No, no, no. Levels do not stack. Wiz 5 Prc 5 cannot cast spells as Wiz 10 because you need much less xp to get 5/5 than 10.
Gilean 08-15-05, 07:43 AM	What I proposed was that the levels stack up to HD, not beyond that. Wiz 5 PrC 5 would not have 5th level spells, but fighter 10 wizard 5 PrC 5 would.
Szatany 08-16-05, 03:41 PM	What I proposed was that the levels stack up to HD, not beyond that. Wiz 5 PrC 5 would not have 5th level spells, but fighter 10 wizard 5 PrC 5 would. But if you have 10 levels of fighter, you still pay less for wiz5/prc5/ftr10 than for ftr10/wiz10 so I'm against it. EDIT: Added rules discouraging rogue dip at first level for skill points. Added mutators (point 5) and some changes in pros and cons.
Gilean 08-17-05, 11:45 AM	I don't like the extra skill points. The difference isn't that high with ultimate classes, anyway. Without them it might be an issue, though. Cster level stacking, I have prestige classes costing more experience (double the normal) and NPC ones costing less (3/4, half for commoner). I still don't think it would be all to imbalanced when they have the normal experience cost.
Gilean 11-03-05, 01:25 PM	A few ways of granting experience First, the simple one: Use static experience in UA. Second, the utterly complicated one that requires some mathematics that may be beyond some Effectivel level for gaining experience equals highest level + square root of second highest + cubic root of third highest .... Favoured classes are ignored for this calculation, unless the highest level is favoured, in which case highest remaining nonfavoured class is ignored. For reference, roots of some numbers (pre-epic) Square root of 1-3 is 1 4-8 => 2 9-15=> 3 16-24=> 4 Cubic roots 1-7=> 1 8-26 => 2 Fourth roots 1-15=> 1 16-80=>2 Fifth roots 1-31=>1 So, a gnomish wizard 14 ranger 6 fighter 3 would have an effective level of 14 + 6^(1/2) + 3^(1/3) = 17 The same character, but elven, would have an effective level of 14 + 0 (ranger ignored; wizard favoured, ranger next nonfavoured) + 3^(1/2) = 15 The system encourages sticking with the classes that have been started, and discourages level-dips.
Tisner44 02-18-06, 11:20 PM	This system seems clumsy and annoying to use. It reminds of second edition too much. Trying to track XP seperately from each class, marking down all the HP you roll. This seems like it will just be messier than the current system and has too much stuff to try to follow. I understand that you were looking for a way in making the classes less dependent on BAB on saves...but this dosen't look very fun to me. Alright if we take the classes to 20th level...the major things I notice is that the classes will end pretty similar toward the end...most class skills will be maxed and since you will have two sets of class skills then a lot of the characters will have the same class list... Also you get a lot of feats, but how do you work with the classes w/ only ten levels...class abilities and stuff. Also...this seems to be more of a minmaxer setup...Ranger/Wizard, Fighter/Bard, any fighter class/monk will all end up with full BAB and all good saves...All this seems to do is to take away the characters weaknesses and give them more abilities at the same time. Where is the limitation of multiclassing... Or is this system set up to force all characters to multiclass? Just Curious.. :cool:
Keldorn2198 06-07-06, 05:33 PM	I absolutely love this system. While I doubt I'll use it for my standard D&D games (I like epic leves), it is a lifesaver for D20 Modern Star Wars, and other low-power level settings. A few ideas of my own: 1. Instead of re-rolling HP on additional classes, each new level beyond the levels in your first class adds a fixed amount of HP based on the class's HD as follows: d4 or d6 +1 hp d8 or d10 +2 hp d12 +3hp So a PC starts as a Wizard, and gains d4+con hp for 10 levels. He then takes a level of fighter. Instead of rolling a d10 to see if he gains more hp, he gets 2 hp. For each additional level of fighter, he gains another 2 hp. If he multi-classes into a bard, he gains an additoinal 1 hp per level. This option eliminates the need to keep track of every HP roll ever made, and over the long run gives PCs a little more endurance. 2. Caster spell slot progression stacks, but caster level and spells known stop at level 10. In other words, a Wizard 10/Loremaster 8 would have the spell slots of a level 18 Wizard. However, his caster level would be only 10 and he would never gain spells over 5th level. The additonal spell slots could be used only to cast spells enhanced with Meta-magic feats or to cast spells of a lower level. Regardless of how many PrCs are taken, there is absolutely no spell progression beyond 20th level. If the Wizard in the example became a Wizard 10/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5/Red Wizard 10, he would have the spell slots of a Lvl 20 wizard plus those of a Lvl 15 wizard. He still would have a maximum spell level of 5, but could perform some impressive effects with metamagics. This gives spellcasters more punch over time, without making them into the monsters they can become in RAW. One almost mandatory requirement for this option is that a PC must reach Lvl 10 in a core casting class before he can take any levels in a PrC that adds to caster level. 3. Add a PrC that allows a Level 10 monk to gain access to the classs features of an 11-20 level monk. Most of the core classes give all class features out by level 10, and just increase their potency or uses/day at levels 11-20. The monk stands out as a class that continuously gains new class features all the way through 20th level. None of the monk's high-level class features are exceptionally powerful, expecially when they will only function as if possessed by a 10th level character. However, without access to the high-level abilities, the monk class loses a great deal. In many ways, monks suffer through the first 10 levels of mediocrity just so they can get the rewards of the later 10 levels. And it should be pointed out that most of the abilities gained by a monk at level 11-20 could be emulated by a sorcerer of lesser level. 4. Allow Paladins and Rangers who multi-class into Clerics and Druids to add their entire spell lists to the spell lists of Cleric/Druid. Why? Paladins and Rangers have numerous spells that are not found on any other list, but that suit them extremely well. With a level cap of 10, they can never access these spells. One definite requirement for this would be that the PC must have 10 levels of Paladin/Ranger before adding their spell lists to those of other Divine caster classes they multi-class into.
ErlendA 06-07-06, 06:23 PM	I like this system. For things like d20 modern, cthulu and stuff I would probably lower the limit to level 8 or something. One thing, however, regarding spellcasting: I think the idea to add slots in the following way (as suggested) is a good idea: level 10 wizard/level 10 loremaster would have the twice the spell slots of a level 10 wizard. I don't think it's wise to allow for higher level spell slots to metamagic. It could potentially be WAY too powerful. However, I don't see why caster level shouldn't stack. The Wizard 10/Loremaster 10 could have caster level 20 without problems to balance. Consider for instance ways to increase spell resistance. Assuming one would play for some time, getting equipment that would defeat any caster would not be a major problem. Also, spells from level 0 to 5 cap numerical benefits gained from caster level anyhow.
Szatany 02-02-07, 05:53 PM	I think the idea to add slots in the following way (as suggested) is a good idea: level 10 wizard/level 10 loremaster would have the twice the spell slots of a level 10 wizard. Interesting, but then a fighter10/barbarian10 should have twice as many attacks as figther 10 (+10/+10/+5/+5). I don't think it's wise to allow for higher level spell slots to metamagic. It could potentially be WAY too powerful.Perhaps you're right. Hmm. However, I don't see why caster level shouldn't stack. The Wizard 10/Loremaster 10 could have caster level 20 without problems to balance. Because XP doesn't stack. (almost) Everything in this system is resolved separately if it comes from different sources. That's the whole premise.