Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 10-25-05, 01:05 PM	I tried to create this thread several weeks ago, but it died before it got the chance to get off the ground. Rather than resurrecting the old thread, I decided to rewrite it and put more thought into it. The system I am striving to build would grant new abilities to characters upon achieving certain ranks in certain skills. The reason I feel a system like that which I will propose could be a good addition to the game is this: Currently, someone with a 20 wisdom and no ranks in spot has the exact same spot modifier as someone with a 10 wisdom and 5 ranks in spot. The person who spent 5 ranks in the skill has nothing to show for it, even though they are better trained. To me, it seems intuitive that training should allow certain individuals the ability to do things that untrained people don't have. Second, I will show several examples of what I am proposing that already exist within the skill system. Hopefully, this will make my proposition seem less drastic. Currently, there are many skills labled as "Trained only" skills, meaning someone without ranks in the skill cannot use the skill at all. This makes sense; you have to know how to do it before you can do it. It also makes sense that many skills are "Untrained", because they are things that everyone can do (climb, jump, spot, ect.), but people with training (ranks) and/or natural talent (ability modifier) can simply do better. Additionally, several skills grant a special ability upon achieving 5 ranks. Many of these abilities are skill synergies, representing the fact that someone's ability with one skill can aid them with their use of another skill (one can think of synergy as using the aid another action one one's self). But aside from these, several skills grant abilities which are more unique: Balance, Survival, and Tumble. From the SRD: If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you have 5 or more ranks in Survival, you can automatically determine where true north lies in relation to yourself. If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when executing the total defense standard action instead of the usual +4 dodge bonus to AC. Now, for my proposal. After playing L5R (Legend of the Five Rings) for several sessions, I came to enjoy their skill based, semi-free form experience system. Almost everything about your character is determined by ability scores and skill ranks. Achieving greater ranks in skills not only gives you a better chance of succeeding skill checks, but also grant you certain bonuses (called mastery abilities) on using those skills. When I thought about it, and compared it to skill synergy and the special abilities with the above skills, I began to consider the possibility of introducing such a system into D&D. My proposal is such: introduce abilities into many, if not as many as possible, skills at every 5 ranks, granting characters new uses of the skill (with appropriate DCs), or improved use of current abilities. Someone with raw talent (ability scores) can achieve decent skill checks, even succeeding a DC20 check with enough luck, but only someone who's trained in a skill will be able to achieve certain results. I will try to make some suggestions, and I'd love all the input I can get both for and against the topic: APPRAISE At certain rank (10?), give characters the ability to appraise magic items, but only if they have access to the Spellcraft skill. At certain rank (5?), give characters the ability to take a penalty on their appraise check to make an accelerated appraise. Reduce this penalty upon achieving greater rank (10 or 15?). BALANCE If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. At certain rank (5, 10?) introduce the ability to accept a -10 penalty to balance while using the run action, requiring only one skill check. At higher rank, reduce this penalty. At certain rank (15 or 20), introduce surface DCs for balancing on surfaces that couldn’t normally hold your weight (liquid, tree branches, spider webs, ect.). Surface obstruction and slippery modifiers would apply as well. BLUFF At certain rank, allow Feint as a move action (replacing Improved Feint). At certain rank, reduce Sense Motive modifier for telling unbelievable lies. At certain rank, allow a suggestion to be introduced along with the bluff. At certain rank, allow Feint as a swift action. CLIMB At certain rank, reduce penalty for accelerated climbing. At certain rank, allow climber to retain Dex bonus to AC. At certain rank, allow greater penalty to climb at full speed. Possibly reduce this penalty. At certain rank, introduce DC to climb perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surfaces (insects can do it after all). CONCENTRATION Unsure. CRAFT (INT) Make crafting masterwork items require 5 ranks in the appropriate Craft skill. If using mastercraft rules, do the same for different levels of mastercraft. DECIPHER SCRIPT (INT; TRAINED ONLY) Unsure. DIPLOMACY (CHA) At certain rank, reduce penalty for rushed Diplomacy check. DISABLE DEVICE (INT; TRAINED ONLY) Unsure. DISGUISE (CHA) At certain rank, allow for hastily constructed Disguises. ESCAPE ARTIST (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY) Unsure. I'll continue more later, but I hope that gives people an idea of what I am going for. Any suggestions?
FlameLover 10-25-05, 05:45 PM	As i said in your out thread i like the idea although i'm not sure whether every 5 or 4 ranks would be best. But i agree that pure ranks should count - i don't like how a magic item makes you just as good as someone who as trained hard in most cases. Like your Appraise example - i'd allow a 1 minute action to identify whether an item was magical or not with a failure giving you the opposite answer if you failed by more than 5. You could make it a full-round action but with a -20 penalty. At 2nd ability that'd lessen to just -15, 3rd would be maybe learning the enhancement bonus of an item (if any) and 4th would be lessening hasty penalty to -10. I'm working on a CS and i'll be instituting this into the core rules for every skill. Post more ideas Xeviat because some skills, like Forgery, are a little hard to come up with. While doing this i'd revamp some of the skills too - like folding Disguise and Forgery into the same skill. EDIT: I like every 4 levels myself. This would give you a special use at level 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 and 21. This means you get 5 pre-Epic and one first level of Epic (which flows quite nicley i think). I think lessening penalties, gaining Dex to AC, more crafting options, etc. are all great special uses for skills.
Xeviat-DM 10-28-05, 02:15 AM	Not every 5 ranks, though I think 5 is a good place. It keeps the ability out of a first level character's hands, and it makes it so if a character with no skill points wants to pick up the ability later in their career, they'll have to devote an entire level's worth, or more, of skill points to get it. Also 5 is where the current abilities and synergies are located. I think that works nicely. I know a few skills will be difficult, especially forgery (though reduced time seems best). Likewise, I think disguise could do to be disolved, folded half into bluff and half ino forgery. Does that sound cool?
FlameLover 10-28-05, 02:43 AM	Yeah i like the idea that acting in character is a Bluff check while making a beleivable disguise would be a Forgery check. This'd also allow someone to make a disguise for someone then get the person with high Bluff mod to wear it (team work people!) The reason i like the ability every 4 ranks though is that it works out nicer progression-wise. You get a new ability at 21st level for example and you end up with 5 before Epic (a nice number i think). 5 would work too but getting stuff on levels 2, 7, 12 and 17 isn't as nice to me as 1, 5, 9, 13, 17. You get your last ability before Epic at the same time though so it doesn't really matter either way I guess.
Patrick Draken-Korin 01-26-06, 09:59 PM	... COOL! i'm gonna help, when i can at least. let me see what i can add at the moment... (i'm currently reworking the skills for a new campaign. mostly rewriting them to include stuff from other books than core, but with some additions). okay, 2 things; 1) do you insist on adding something like this to every skill, or can you admit that some just don't have the capacity (or that they're already powerful enough). this is just a hypothetical question, not an attack. A) i don't see any point in "master abilities" that will make checks easier (such as reducing the penalty for unbelievable lies or making combat climbing easier). sure intense training should have a benefit, but the difficult related benefit is already accounted for (by the rank itself). 2) if you're dissatified with characters just getting an item so they don't need ranks (+20 use magic item!), add the house rule that they can't benefit from any bonus that exceeds thier ranks +5 (so a 0 climb rank character can use a +5 bonus, but can't full use the full bonus from the improved ring of jumping). appraise; appraising a magic item (normally) requires the Appraise Magical Item feat, in complete arcane (the feat is Appraise Mystical Item in my campaign). It's a DC 10 check that if you fail, you can't retry. Attempting this requires 8 hours and 25 Gp. - i've added the option to appraise magic items without the feat at DC 25. (not sure that this comment helps, just refrencing my work thus far). - i've also added the appraise psionic item ability (same as for magic items; DC 25 or DC 10 with the Appraise Mystical Item feat). > idea: with 5 ranks and the Appraise Magical/Mystical Item feat the attempt only takes 1 hour. With 15 ranks and the feat, the attempt only takes 10 minutes (and is assured). With 25 ranks (epic, i'll admit) and the feat, the attempt only takes 1 minute (and once reduced to a minute the attmpt can be rushed by increaseing the DC, as normal) > idea: offer the same speedier appraisal as having the Appraise Magical/Mystical Item feat, but the number of ranks required to gain the benefit increases by 10 (at 15, 25, and 35 instead of 5, 15 and 25). balance; i allow a running balance check at a -20 penalty (as per the complete arcane). That's a single check for the full movement. - the DCs for balancing on branches that can't hold your weight, liquids, clouds, hair thin materials, etc, are all in the epic level handbook. Note that i consider them epic usage (requiring at least 24 ranks to even attempt, regardless of your modifier). bluff; i don't really like the idea of making unbelievable lies easier, though i really like the option for feinting faster. - instilling a suggesion is a DC 50 check mentioned in th epic level handbook. > idea; gain the ability to faint as a move action at 10 bluff ranks, but this also requires 15+ dexterity. Gain the ability to bluff as a swift action at 20 bluff ranks, but this also requires 19+ dexterity. Sufficient dexterity drain/damage/burn would prevent use of faster feinting. > idea; gain the ability to make a suggestion as a bluff check at 15 ranks, but this also requires 17+ charisma. The DC is opposed by a will save, but you take a -15 penalty on the check (for an average roll of 13, if you don't have any futher bonuses from feats/items). Sufficient charisma drain/damage/burn would prevent use of the suggestion ability. climb; all of your suggestions are either in complete adventurer or the epic level handbook, though they're not handled in the manner that you're proposing. craft; that's sort of redundant. few (if any creatures, EVER) would attempt crafting a masterwork item unless they have at least 6 ranks (ranks, +4 int modifier or ranks, +2 int modifer, +2 for stoncunning with dwarves/alchemy with gnomes). i'd like to see the 1 HD creature that's churning out masterwork items (4 ranks, +3 int, +2 dwarf +3 skill focus{craft{weaponsmithing}})? - on the other hand for mastercrafting, that makes sense; sure the first level (5 rank) requirement is redundant, but it sets the scene for the later levels. [b]disguise[b/]; that's a good idea. hmm. on the other hand, i think i'd rather simply set a penlty for the attempt (-10 or -20). altogether, i like your idea, though i'm not how much use can be gained from this. we'll just have to see, huh? i'd post some suggestions for skill beyond disguise, except that i haven't actually gotten past there for my own reworking. i organize some ideas over he next few days, and see what i can come up with. bye
FeyearthDM 01-28-06, 02:08 AM	I've also been wrestling with this idea, that skill ranks should count for something more than a +5% success chance. Natural ability (scores) make performing a skill easier, magic can help you succeed where you'd otherwise fail, but ranks represent the time and effort put into study and practice. So, skill ranks should in some way determine not just facility at completing a task (bonus to skill check roll) but also the limits of what tasks a character is capable of. This idea is particularly important for knowledge skills - including craft, gather information, and use magic device. It seems there should be tasks, expertises if you will, that only someone of rank n could accomplish; no amount of natural ability can substitute for training and experience. Craft is a good example. Weaponsmithing allows a character to fashion various weapons, and to create masterwork weapons. It would be reasonable to state that a certain number of ranks in the skill were required before even attempting a more difficult task. A rule of thumb might be that the character needs enough ranks to succeed on the DC with a 10, disregarding other bonuses or penalties. Thus an exotic weapon would require the crafter to have 8 ranks simply to attempt the creation.
Xeviat-DM 01-29-06, 04:09 PM	Well, definately I think that someone should have to have 5 ranks in craft to make a masterwork item. I'm also eventually going to have higher levels of masterwork, so I'll insert them too (actually, in my games, I'm considering the possibility of having a weapon's +enhancement be based upon it's crafting, where any other enhancements like flaming would be magical; items could be reforged to boost their +enhancement). So, people here don't think that reducing some of the penalties associated with a skill and a certain use of the skill doesn't seem within the bounds of such a skill bonus? Such as 10 ranks in jump making one suffer less of a penalty when they fail to make a running start. These are feat worthy abilities, sort of, and some of the current 5 rank skill abilities are partially feat worthy.
Ulorian 01-29-06, 04:29 PM	This is a great idea. Xeviat-DM, I've read a lot of your rules system thoughts lately, and they've been excellent by and large. Do you have a link to a collection of rules/ideas?
Fox Lee 01-29-06, 05:39 PM	Your ideas intrigue me, and I shall be suggesting them to our group's GMs, as well as for our homebrew system. Thanks for that ^^
Patrick Draken-Korin 01-30-06, 05:08 PM	Xeviat-DM, i didn't say that those abilities aren't worth having, just that it doesn't make a great deal of sense in the manner proposed; with core D&D, a rank is worth a 5% chance of success, and there are certain penalties & DC increases that are associated with non-standard tasks. with your proposed system, for certain skills, a rank is normally worth a 5% chance of success, except where the number of ranks allows you to reduce the penalty for a non-standard task (because a sufficient number of ranks reduces that penalty/DC increase). this means that for certain non-standard tasks, "normal" training (ranks purchased from skill points), advances skill in standard tasks at a normal rate (+5% each rank), while the same normal training advances non-standard tasks (things not normally trained for) at a greater rate. i don't see that as logical. considering the "normal" method of training for non-standard tasks is feats, your general proposal would work, just not in the manner you proposed... otoh, an idea that just occured to me, you could apply this penalty reducing factors to other skills. eg; 10/15 ranks in diplomacy reduces the opponents sense motive modifier when you use bluff; reduce all modifiers by -5 (wants to believe you: -10, believable: -5, a little hard to believe: +0, too hard to believe: +5, almost unbelievable: +15) 10/15 ranks in tumble reduces the penalty for climb checks when combat climbing to -15. and other similar bonuses. first of all, this maintains the synergy feeling of advanced skill training, and also make more sense to... dang, i just saw you point of view. ok, i can see a reason why a those who've put actual training in a skill should be better than an individual who only has a magical item that matches thier skill. but there are two sides; (as i see 'em) yours- sufficient training should relate further advancement because personal training is superior to a magical gimick that lets some twit copy your achivement and efforts. example; guy with 10 climb ranks is better at non-standard climbing maneuvers and looks down on guy that has 0 ranks an uses a +10 competence bonus on climb from a pair of gloves. mine- if magic is used to match a person skill, it should match there skill, but not provide all of the little tricks that don't relate directly to thier skill at the task at hand. example; guy with 10 climb ranks knows how to slow thier fall properly (slow fall 10ft), and so looks down on guy that has 0 ranks an uses a +10 competence bonus on climb from a pair of gloves. you system could work, and so could mine. i currently think mine's better, but that's just a matter of opinion. hmm. okay, heres a thought. what we do is list a skill an a number of proposed modifiers/tricks that can be acquired for sufficient ranks in that skill. then individuals that read this read (whethere or not the themselves post anything), can take whichever proposed variants they like the most (which they'd do anyways, and the 'ell with those who actually put an effort into the thread). ... hmm... let's see... ok now that i've made you impatient for my next bit'o'wisdom (or crap), here's a suggested format for these skill mastery variants: (supprise supprise, the format is alot like what i used in my previous post). skill > skill mastery 1 (proposed ranks required): description of mastery or effects of mastery > skill mastery 2 (proposed ranks required): description of mastery or effects of mastery > skill mastery 3 (proposed ranks required): description of mastery or effects of mastery etc. Example: climb > slow fall (10+): the character gains slow fall 10ft (if carrying more than a light load or wearing armor heavier than light, a DC 25 climb check is required. increase the DC by +2 for every 50 lb above thier light load and by +5 for every weight category of armor above light). every 10 ranks beyond the base 10 increses the creatures slow fall ability by 10ft. at 100 ranks, the creature gains the ability to slow fall any distance (rather than slow fall 100ft). > race climber (10): reduce the penalty for accellerated climbing to -2 (at 20 ranks this penalty is eliminated). reduce the penalty for rapid climbing to -15 (at 20 ranks reduce the penalty to -10, at 30 ranks reduce the penalty to -5, at 40 ranks eliminate the penalty). > fight climber (15): reduce penalty for combat climbing to -15 (at 30 ranks reduce this penalty to -10, at 45 ranks reduce this penalty to -5, at 60 ranks elimiate this penalty) > epic climber (25): allow character to attempt epic climb checks (such as perfectly smooth surfaces, force effects and clouds/smoke).
Xeviat-DM 01-31-06, 03:25 AM	Patrick Draken-Korin, thanks for all the input. I will admit that I'd rather have "unique" abilities for the ranks (like you suggest slow fall for climb), but for some it just isn't possible. I'd like rank 10 and rank 20 in all skills to grant something, though some skills will have abilities at 5 and 15 as well. I want synergies to grant +2 at 5, +3 at 10, +4 at 15, +5 at 20, and +6 at 25 ... and so on ... but that's just me. I'm going to collect the ideas posted here, and "sanction" the use of your format; it's a good format for this presentation. Please toss out any more ideas you have, I'll post more of mine shortly. Thanks.
Vapthorne 01-31-06, 09:05 AM	Xeviant, I think you're one to something here. I've read these suggestions, and have some input. I know how you want to give some of the skills a unique ability, so here are some of my thought. Granted right now, I don't have access to any of my books, everything is off the top of my head. Here's some ideas to consider If you have 5 ranks in certain skills, you can reroll that skill check once per day. This roll must be done before the result of that roll is known. If you have 10 ranks, once per day you can use a pseudo-feat ability with that skill. For example, if you have ten ranks in Bluff then (once per day) you can feint as a move-action (or a free-action, if you have improved feint). Personally, I think this is better than just giving the Improved Feat because then that'll make the option more powerful. Note, for other feats (like I said, no access to book), but the complete series (especially, Complete Adventurer) has some skilled related feats that you could use for other skills (like clmib, etc) For 15 ranks, once per day, you can take a 10 every when under pressure. More to come
R-G 02-01-06, 10:52 AM	we do something like this in our group. Mainly with Knowledge checks and Profession checks though. At Certain Skill Ranks, (Normally every 5) the DM gives the Player with the Ranks a Package of Knowledge that he can read. Eg. History 5 = General time line of world and knowledge of important events. Every 5 after that he gets another package with more accurate detail about what he is looking for, (This normally ties in with finding a book of knowledge in a library, so there is a reason, but with out the ranks, he would never have found it) Profession 10 (Bounty Hunter) = Higher bounties are given to you as you are now seen as being accomplished at your job. And People will seek you out rather than you having to hunt for jobs. It also allows the player to give themselves, (with DM's acceptence) a ''special move'' at certain high skill levels. EG. High Jump maybe a perfect backflip. Or a high survival means having to drink and eat less than a normal mortal. What ever you want that you can incorporate into your character and the DM doesn't think will over power your character too much. Anyway, i approve.
Phoenix Knight 02-04-06, 11:20 PM	I like the idea for Knowledge and Profession. I have mixed feelings about more standard skills. R-G, can you give some examples of what you give for those skills?
bholdr_mage 02-05-06, 06:46 PM	I really like the skill ideas presented. Starting at levels divisible by 5, I think would be great.(5,10,15,20) For disguise, one could not recieve as harsh of penalty when disguising as the opposite sex, and at higher ranks, not suffer from appearing as monstrous humanoids.
Reshall 02-06-06, 01:12 AM	It is a good idea, but I do think that the skill system does already cover it. (though I've often added new abilities and extra things to my games). I would say do it if you think that it makes your game more enjoyable to you. As for the way the rules handle it, it is somewhat realistic. Using spot as an example. Some people are naturally more observant then others, so that they are more observant than someone with little training. As the character practices more (levels up places more skills), then the person who trains will become far more observant then the naturally gifted one and will be able to see things that the natural could never see. Also, look at the epic level handbook for ideas. They detail special applications for skills. Those might help you to take a look at and see if any of those fit into your game and give you a chance to see if they would unbalance your game. Remember, the largest rule in the game (and has been as long as I've been playing) is that the rules in the books are only guidelines.
Phoenix Knight 02-19-06, 04:51 PM	I'd still like to see more work on this project. Xeviat, are you still working on this project, or have you abandoned it? For non-profession or knowledge skills, the bonuses can effectively replace synergies. That is, some of the bonuses at 5 ranks or 10 ranks may be the same as the synergy bonuses, but I'd strip the existing ones. There are also new skill uses in the Complete Adventurer that might work well, such as the ability to use Balance with -10 to resist trip if you have 10+ ranks. I implemented the idea of knowledge packets for every 5 ranks, and players seemed to like it okay.
Millenia 02-20-06, 01:49 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=393055 <- Perhaps this thread may give you ideas for new uses of Concentration?
Seerow 02-20-06, 09:58 PM	Draken-Korin should be headed simply for having the best reference I have seen on these boards. (Okay maybe not best, I liked Sarig as well...) Hail to the strange one. Here's the part where I actually contribute something. Instead of doing so, I shall complain that Xeviat-DM has not touched his MP System in forever, and should do so.
Xeviat-DM 02-22-06, 02:34 PM	No one ever replies to that thread; I recieved many emails requesting the files, but hardly any replies ever popped up up on the thread. I'm still editing the files, though. As for the skill revisions, thanks for keeping this thread alive. I'm organizing my thoughts to be able to post some new ideas soon.