New Skill: Physical Training [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Skill: Physical Training [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PiedmonSama
09-13-06, 04:40 PM This is a house rule I introduced into my campaign recently, and I thought I'd share it with you all, for your review and thoughts.

It's always annoyed me that your 9 Str Wizard can never, como se dice, "hit the weights." That is to say, through rigorous training you should at the very least be able to get your stats up to par. So I introduced this new skill, which essentially represents your character logging in extra hours when everyone else was studying, socializing or sleeping to go the extra mile in his workouts.

The "Physical Training" skill, like Speak Language, is connected to no ability score. It gives no benefit until you have four ranks in the skill. When you have the full number of ranks, you may increase one physical attribute--Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution--by two points. You may not put any more ranks in the skill (even for a different attribute) for another four levels. For example, if you put four ranks into Physical Training at first level, you can put in no more until level four, and again no more until level eight, and again no more until level 12. Physical Training may not push an attribute past 20.
058
09-13-06, 05:13 PM Sounds nifty, but the concept seems flawed, in that if a Wizard wants to devote some of his "studdying time" to physical training, then he'd put his Ability Point in Strength, rather than Intelligence or somesuch.
Pandaemoni
09-13-06, 06:14 PM Whereas my first thoughts are: (i) fighters would dump every skill poinmt they have into this, so there is powergaming considerations to consider (I'd rather be stronger than have a few more ranks in "Riding" or "Climbing") and (ii) if a wizard A does devote time to "working out" and wizard B spends his time studying, why doesn't wizard B get an intelligence bonus for all the time he spent exercising his intellect?

Also, is this skill cross class?
058
09-13-06, 06:21 PM Well, he put what seem to be fair limits on its use; you can't get more than two points of it for every few levels, and there's a maximum you can go to.
Telemon_Ajax
09-13-06, 07:27 PM Whereas my first thoughts are: (i) fighters would dump every skill poinmt they have into this, so there is powergaming considerations to consider (I'd rather be stronger than have a few more ranks in "Riding" or "Climbing") and (ii) if a wizard A does devote time to "working out" and wizard B spends his time studying, why doesn't wizard B get an intelligence bonus for all the time he spent exercising his intellect?

Also, is this skill cross class?

Oh, god forbid we give the fighter any more power :eek:
PiedmonSama
09-13-06, 07:29 PM Whereas my first thoughts are: (i) fighters would dump every skill poinmt they have into this, so there is powergaming considerations to consider (I'd rather be stronger than have a few more ranks in "Riding" or "Climbing") and (ii) if a wizard A does devote time to "working out" and wizard B spends his time studying, why doesn't wizard B get an intelligence bonus for all the time he spent exercising his intellect?

Also, is this skill cross class?

They might. The skill is available to everyone. But remember, you can only put up to four ranks in it (and you need to put four ranks in it to get any effect) for every four levels.

And the Wizard studying might learn more spells, but he doesn't get smarter. Studying doesn't make you smarter, not in the way lifting weights will make you stronger.
PiedmonSama
09-13-06, 07:35 PM Sounds nifty, but the concept seems flawed, in that if a Wizard wants to devote some of his "studdying time" to physical training, then he'd put his Ability Point in Strength, rather than Intelligence or somesuch.

Sure, at first level. A typical 1st level adventurer is of the ages 16-22, typically, meaning he's fresh out of the figurative academy and is presumed to have spent years training his "stats" up to where they need to be. The thing that always got my goat was when your Wizard completes his first adventure and makes his first level up. The now-2nd-level Wizard says, "gee, my lack of (Str/Dex/Con) almost got me killed! I think I'll go to the city gymnasium for a couple months and build that up!" And then the DM says, "uh..... well, you can't." And the PC says, "what? Why?" And the DM says, "well, you'll need to earn three more levels before you can improve an attribute." And the PC might be like "bwuh? I don't see weightlifters running around bashing Gnolls to train," but there you are.

So yes, that's my thinking behind this.
Pandaemoni
09-13-06, 07:50 PM They might. The skill is available to everyone. But remember, you can only put up to four ranks in it (and you need to put four ranks in it to get any effect) for every four levels.

And the Wizard studying might learn more spells, but he doesn't get smarter. Studying doesn't make you smarter, not in the way lifting weights will make you stronger.

You can train things like memory and logical reasoning skills every bit as much as you can train muscles. Mental stimulation that keeps people sharp it's not simply that you are born as smart as you'll ever be.

Besides, this seems more something that fighters would use (or other melee classes) rather than 9 strength wizards.
PiedmonSama
09-13-06, 07:59 PM As someone else put, it's not like the fighter is dangerously overpowered as it is. He's perfectly able to take advantage of it as much as the less-physical characters, although this was really designed with them in mind.

It even makes a sort of sense. While the other village youths were out learning to herd livestock, climbing trees and swimming in the river, you spent all winter and most of summer in your room doing pushups and lifting rocks under a big sign that read "PAIN IS WEAKNESS LEAVING THE BODY."

This skill comes with an RPing restriction that your character essentially sacrificed his social life between learning his class abilities and training his body, and I'd point that out to any player who took it. And the crux of my argument, for low-skill characters (Fighters, Paladins, Clerics, I mean you) those four skill points can be a heavy cost. What happens when you need to scale a rock wall or jump a chasm? Well you took four ranks you could have put in that skill and put them in an ability that gives you a bonus of one to the skill in return.

It's not as helpful to fighters as you think, I think.
TheEndLessBuilder
09-13-06, 08:16 PM No just no. This would not even change the game because every NPC would take it aswell logicaly. And studing is the same as hitting the waits you can incress your mental ability by just studying. A wizard can always pumb his str any way at every four lvls. If you don't like weak wizards then put a higher number in to your str.
PiedmonSama
09-13-06, 08:26 PM No just no. This would not even change the game because every NPC would take it aswell logicaly. And studing is the same as hitting the waits you can incress your mental ability by just studying. A wizard can always pumb his str any way at every four lvls. If you don't like weak wizards then put a higher number in to your str.

Having to wait four levels to get one point doesn't even make sense. Unless you play in a campaign where lifting weights gives you XP, the two should have nothing to do with each other.

You're the one who's not using logic. Taking this skill represents a huge sacrifice of time and effort. An unadventurous NPC farmer or whatever doesn't have any reason to do it. An adventurer who is intending to put his life on the line in search of treasure and wants to be as prepared as possible does.

A Fighter has much less reason to take this than a Wizard. The fighter's already got good abilities (or he should), he's assumed to be training his body just as part of his regular class prep, he doesn't need to put in overtime. He'll be more versatile and ultimately more succesful if he uses those ranks for Jump, Climb, Swim, etc.
058
09-13-06, 08:30 PM Hm. Upon considering these arguments, I see that this is a rather logical and well-considered idea.
GnomeBarbarian
09-13-06, 09:22 PM Basically all this does is when u sacrfice a skill point per level you get bonuses to ur attributes. I dont like the idea at all because the whole point of getting an attribute every 4 lvls is that is probably as long as it should take to do things enough times to justify earning a new ability point. But if you are going to do this why wouldn't a wizard just "become smarter" rather than build muscles because with him being smarter he will just be able to stay away and kill things with the magic easier.
Seldriss
09-14-06, 10:39 AM If you want to make this accessible but not unbalanced, why don't you make it a feat ?

Physical Training (General) :
Effects : By practicing intense physical workout daily, the character gains a +1 enhancement to his Strength score for the next 8 hours of the day. The training has to be kept for 2 hours (minimum) every day, otherwise the effect cannot be obtained, unless the character spends twice as long to recover his good shape. Resting, sleeping or inconsciousness end the effect.

Souplesse (General) :
Effects : By practicing intense acrobatics and gymnastics daily, the character gains a +1 enhancement to his Dexterity score for the next 8 hours of the day. The training has to be kept for 2 hours (minimum) every day, otherwise the effect cannot be obtained, unless the character spends twice as long to recover his good shape. Resting, sleeping or inconsciousness ends the effect.

Vigor (General) :
Effects : By practicing intense endurance workout daily, the character gains a +1 enhancement to his Constitution score for the next 8 hours of the day. The training has to be kept for 2 hours (minimum) every day, otherwise the effect cannot be obtained, unless the character spends twice as long to recover his good shape. Resting, sleeping or inconsciousness ends the effect.

Of course, some players mighht want to invest into these three feats, but they would have then to train for 6 hours every morning, to get the effects for a quite similar duration (actually for 4, 6 and 8 hours), which wouldn't be worth it.

Some similar training can be developped for mental abilities, like Intelligence (reading, researching) and Wisdom (meditation, focusing).
Egarb
09-14-06, 11:01 AM I always kinda thought that people with NPC classes would gain levels differently that people with PC class levels would. I mean, PC are PC because theyre adventurers, whatever set of skills they happen to be using is just how they accomplish in their profession. IE Adventurers gain XP by adventuring.

Commoners on the other hand arent adventurers, so they gain XP by doing theyre job. That farmer gets XP for farming. That scribe scribes things to gain levels. If its a challenge, it gets you xp. For an adventurer, reading a book, farming, or scribing all day under your cranky boss, simply isnt a challenge. For those CR 1/2 peasants it is.

So that means, that if you have a level one warrior who weight trains, he gains levels.
ReverendBSB
09-15-06, 07:49 PM I have thought about adding feats in my game to raise attributes, but using skill points seems way to easy to me. When you think about what it takes to improve your strength, dexterity in the real world, just using skill points seems overpowered.
rydi123
09-15-06, 11:53 PM why not use these rules, or just some modification of them:

Stephen “Shoe” Schubert, Developer
It’s You, Not Your Gear: Treasure is reduced 10-15% and permanent ability score boosting items are banned. Instead, characters get a stat increase at every even level (instead of every four levels) and a feat at every odd level.

or you could just offer the epic feats (great charisma, great dex, etc) as non-epic feats.

or, if you are set on the physical prowess skill, you could make it work differently so that you cant just keep going up in your strong stats. Maybe allow the skill to only give +2 to a stat ever, and make the pc keep thier ranks at max or lose the bonus (when you stop working out, the muscle goes away).
Drodain
09-16-06, 12:23 AM The above posters last idea I would not have a problem with, but other than that it just doesn't seem to work. I've always thought the stat point at every four levels WAS them working hard at that thing, there is just an affect at the fourth level. Having a skill double that effect at level 1 is a lot. I wouldn't use it unless it was high powered or you needed to keep max ranks. Just have like Physical Training(Dex), Physical Training(Str), Mental Training(Wis). Require 4 ranks for an unnamed +1 and 8 for +2, if ranks are not raised at a standard rate the effect is lost until caught up.
theotherdraxen
09-16-06, 01:55 AM I would suggest basing it off the point buy method (in the DMG pg 169), so that strong stats are exponentially harder to increase than weak stats. You can put ranks into Training (stat name). For every 4 ranks you have, you get one point to increase a stat, but by the point-buy method. If you have a 7 strength, you can put 4 ranks (the max at 1st level) to buy a 9. However, if you have a 16 wisdom, buying a 17 will require putting 12 ranks into Training (wisdom).
sren
09-16-06, 10:31 PM Just thought I'd add my two cents:

There is a feat called "open mind" that gives you five skill points (I believe its in the XPH, but its not a psionic feat), and an epic feat that gives a character a +1 stat bonus, so, in my opinion, a stat bonus is worth 5 skill points at epic level, so should be worth more at pre-epic levels (where that +1 to hit and damage is far more important).

Althought I'm not sure I'd be ready to implement it in my game, I do have a suggestion. This would be a variation on the idea of "it's you, not your gear" posted above. Let characters spend XP and gold to train themselves, instead of skill points. Spending XP represents propper time allocated to training, and gold is spent for training equipment, instruction, propper diet or even things like inscense that helps create a propper learning environment. The ammount spent should be equivilent to making a normal magic item, modified to make it slottless and not vulnerable to dispelling/anti-magic/null magic (should be about a x3 multiplier).

So the market value would be bonus-squared times 3,000 GP. It takes half that value in gold for training aids (which are consumed or broken in the training), 1/25th of that value in XP, and 1 day in training for every 1,000 GP in value. Treat the final bonus as an enhancement bonus so it doesn't stack with normal magic items (or multiply the market value by two if you want it to stack with enhancement bonuses). Enforce the training time as consecutive days, or at least complete weeks at a time (but don't charge the gold or XP until training is completed) to enforce the idea of completing training regemins.

Also, pre epic limit the characters to a +6 bonus, and maybe only allow them to buy +2 chunks at a time. This doesn't chane the balance of the game too much, lets characters choose some of their improvements (vs. waiting for the DM to assign magic items in loot), and mimics reality by enforcing the idea that training is free and gets harder for each additional step.

Edit: Fixed typos.
Zersch
09-17-06, 02:05 PM There does seem to be quite a number of viable possiblities presented here, but I'm actually surprised that I haven't seen this one yet.

If a character does and can perform a feat of strength, through roleplaying (i.e, single-handedly lifts a heavy portcullis gate, actually grapples an ogre to the ground, etc), shouldn't the DM just consider, "Hey, that was a mighty cool idea, and the fact that they pulled it off impresses me to no end." and possibly award the character with a point of Strength right there on the spot, at the end of the session, or the next time they pass out experience?

While this does present some problems for weaker characters, I don't see why they can't as well attempt it. Maybe not to the scale of the examples I gave, but something slightly more (maybe two or three more points above) difficult than there current Strength score.

Inversly, why can't the same be applied for Intelligent ideas? Something so mind-shattering that it could affect the whole story arc, the region that they are in, or something like that.

Basically, I feel that there are more than an adequate number of skills, and quite a sufficient number of feats out there. Why must experience only be dolled out with a numerical effect? Why can't someone gain a point in any ability with a truly amazing, astonishing, and awesome effect, as an experience award?

I do apologize that this deviates a little, but I wanted to encompass everything with this thought.
a_psh
09-17-06, 02:12 PM Back in the day, they used to be a saying on the Psionics boards, which was used to explain why making up some feats to fix 3.0 Psionics was a bad idea:
"Feats should be nice, not required."
This indicated that if something is so good that you basically had no choice but to take it, it shouldn't be an optional ability in the first place.

Similar concept applies here:
Skills should be nice, not required.

As written, every martial character and every character with skill points to burn will want this skill. Badly. Rogues, clerics, wizards, fighters, barbarians, everybody!
mattdm
09-17-06, 03:57 PM I have thought about adding feats in my game to raise attributes, but using skill points seems way to easy to me. When you think about what it takes to improve your strength, dexterity in the real world, just using skill points seems overpowered.

Skill points seems particularly bad because it's a bit odd that high-skill point classes like rogues, scouts, and even rangers and bards would have the most benefit -- followed by wizards with their high intelligence. Sorcerers often have low or average int, so they probably don't have the extra skill points to blow.

The feat idea seems okay if you really like this. Or, how about trying this: start at a low-total point buy for ability scores and give out additional "points" which may be spent on increasing stats at every level, replacing the standard +1-to-an-ability-every-4-levels.
Neofish
09-17-06, 05:29 PM I think that sounds nice, but I would rule that the "Wizard" hitting the weights would only gain a single point in attribute he wanted every 4 character level...

:D
Ltheb Liadon
09-17-06, 05:46 PM Why not make the bonus an inherent bonus? It wouldn't stack with the tomes, (which do the same thing magically.)
mattdm
09-17-06, 08:06 PM To expand on my idea above:

For *all* characters, start with 15 point ability score point buy. Then, replace the standard ability score increase every four levels with an additional point-buy point every level. This point can be either spent immediately or stored for later.

The 20th-level result is a 35-point point buy, which sounds astronomical, *but*, consider that most 4-level ability score increases go into an already-high score, and so are worth the equivalent of 16 or more points each.

This solves the issue of not knowing what you wanted at first level, while letting *all* characters grow into power.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PiedmonSama 09-13-06, 04:40 PM	This is a house rule I introduced into my campaign recently, and I thought I'd share it with you all, for your review and thoughts. It's always annoyed me that your 9 Str Wizard can never, como se dice, "hit the weights." That is to say, through rigorous training you should at the very least be able to get your stats up to par. So I introduced this new skill, which essentially represents your character logging in extra hours when everyone else was studying, socializing or sleeping to go the extra mile in his workouts. The "Physical Training" skill, like Speak Language, is connected to no ability score. It gives no benefit until you have four ranks in the skill. When you have the full number of ranks, you may increase one physical attribute--Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution--by two points. You may not put any more ranks in the skill (even for a different attribute) for another four levels. For example, if you put four ranks into Physical Training at first level, you can put in no more until level four, and again no more until level eight, and again no more until level 12. Physical Training may not push an attribute past 20.
058 09-13-06, 05:13 PM	Sounds nifty, but the concept seems flawed, in that if a Wizard wants to devote some of his "studdying time" to physical training, then he'd put his Ability Point in Strength, rather than Intelligence or somesuch.
Pandaemoni 09-13-06, 06:14 PM	Whereas my first thoughts are: (i) fighters would dump every skill poinmt they have into this, so there is powergaming considerations to consider (I'd rather be stronger than have a few more ranks in "Riding" or "Climbing") and (ii) if a wizard A does devote time to "working out" and wizard B spends his time studying, why doesn't wizard B get an intelligence bonus for all the time he spent exercising his intellect? Also, is this skill cross class?
058 09-13-06, 06:21 PM	Well, he put what seem to be fair limits on its use; you can't get more than two points of it for every few levels, and there's a maximum you can go to.
Telemon_Ajax 09-13-06, 07:27 PM	Whereas my first thoughts are: (i) fighters would dump every skill poinmt they have into this, so there is powergaming considerations to consider (I'd rather be stronger than have a few more ranks in "Riding" or "Climbing") and (ii) if a wizard A does devote time to "working out" and wizard B spends his time studying, why doesn't wizard B get an intelligence bonus for all the time he spent exercising his intellect? Also, is this skill cross class? Oh, god forbid we give the fighter any more power :eek:
PiedmonSama 09-13-06, 07:29 PM	Whereas my first thoughts are: (i) fighters would dump every skill poinmt they have into this, so there is powergaming considerations to consider (I'd rather be stronger than have a few more ranks in "Riding" or "Climbing") and (ii) if a wizard A does devote time to "working out" and wizard B spends his time studying, why doesn't wizard B get an intelligence bonus for all the time he spent exercising his intellect? Also, is this skill cross class? They might. The skill is available to everyone. But remember, you can only put up to four ranks in it (and you need to put four ranks in it to get any effect) for every four levels. And the Wizard studying might learn more spells, but he doesn't get smarter. Studying doesn't make you smarter, not in the way lifting weights will make you stronger.
PiedmonSama 09-13-06, 07:35 PM	Sounds nifty, but the concept seems flawed, in that if a Wizard wants to devote some of his "studdying time" to physical training, then he'd put his Ability Point in Strength, rather than Intelligence or somesuch. Sure, at first level. A typical 1st level adventurer is of the ages 16-22, typically, meaning he's fresh out of the figurative academy and is presumed to have spent years training his "stats" up to where they need to be. The thing that always got my goat was when your Wizard completes his first adventure and makes his first level up. The now-2nd-level Wizard says, "gee, my lack of (Str/Dex/Con) almost got me killed! I think I'll go to the city gymnasium for a couple months and build that up!" And then the DM says, "uh..... well, you can't." And the PC says, "what? Why?" And the DM says, "well, you'll need to earn three more levels before you can improve an attribute." And the PC might be like "bwuh? I don't see weightlifters running around bashing Gnolls to train," but there you are. So yes, that's my thinking behind this.
Pandaemoni 09-13-06, 07:50 PM	They might. The skill is available to everyone. But remember, you can only put up to four ranks in it (and you need to put four ranks in it to get any effect) for every four levels. And the Wizard studying might learn more spells, but he doesn't get smarter. Studying doesn't make you smarter, not in the way lifting weights will make you stronger. You can train things like memory and logical reasoning skills every bit as much as you can train muscles. Mental stimulation that keeps people sharp it's not simply that you are born as smart as you'll ever be. Besides, this seems more something that fighters would use (or other melee classes) rather than 9 strength wizards.
PiedmonSama 09-13-06, 07:59 PM	As someone else put, it's not like the fighter is dangerously overpowered as it is. He's perfectly able to take advantage of it as much as the less-physical characters, although this was really designed with them in mind. It even makes a sort of sense. While the other village youths were out learning to herd livestock, climbing trees and swimming in the river, you spent all winter and most of summer in your room doing pushups and lifting rocks under a big sign that read "PAIN IS WEAKNESS LEAVING THE BODY." This skill comes with an RPing restriction that your character essentially sacrificed his social life between learning his class abilities and training his body, and I'd point that out to any player who took it. And the crux of my argument, for low-skill characters (Fighters, Paladins, Clerics, I mean you) those four skill points can be a heavy cost. What happens when you need to scale a rock wall or jump a chasm? Well you took four ranks you could have put in that skill and put them in an ability that gives you a bonus of one to the skill in return. It's not as helpful to fighters as you think, I think.
TheEndLessBuilder 09-13-06, 08:16 PM	No just no. This would not even change the game because every NPC would take it aswell logicaly. And studing is the same as hitting the waits you can incress your mental ability by just studying. A wizard can always pumb his str any way at every four lvls. If you don't like weak wizards then put a higher number in to your str.
PiedmonSama 09-13-06, 08:26 PM	No just no. This would not even change the game because every NPC would take it aswell logicaly. And studing is the same as hitting the waits you can incress your mental ability by just studying. A wizard can always pumb his str any way at every four lvls. If you don't like weak wizards then put a higher number in to your str. Having to wait four levels to get one point doesn't even make sense. Unless you play in a campaign where lifting weights gives you XP, the two should have nothing to do with each other. You're the one who's not using logic. Taking this skill represents a huge sacrifice of time and effort. An unadventurous NPC farmer or whatever doesn't have any reason to do it. An adventurer who is intending to put his life on the line in search of treasure and wants to be as prepared as possible does. A Fighter has much less reason to take this than a Wizard. The fighter's already got good abilities (or he should), he's assumed to be training his body just as part of his regular class prep, he doesn't need to put in overtime. He'll be more versatile and ultimately more succesful if he uses those ranks for Jump, Climb, Swim, etc.
058 09-13-06, 08:30 PM	Hm. Upon considering these arguments, I see that this is a rather logical and well-considered idea.
GnomeBarbarian 09-13-06, 09:22 PM	Basically all this does is when u sacrfice a skill point per level you get bonuses to ur attributes. I dont like the idea at all because the whole point of getting an attribute every 4 lvls is that is probably as long as it should take to do things enough times to justify earning a new ability point. But if you are going to do this why wouldn't a wizard just "become smarter" rather than build muscles because with him being smarter he will just be able to stay away and kill things with the magic easier.
Seldriss 09-14-06, 10:39 AM	If you want to make this accessible but not unbalanced, why don't you make it a feat ? Physical Training (General) : Effects : By practicing intense physical workout daily, the character gains a +1 enhancement to his Strength score for the next 8 hours of the day. The training has to be kept for 2 hours (minimum) every day, otherwise the effect cannot be obtained, unless the character spends twice as long to recover his good shape. Resting, sleeping or inconsciousness end the effect. Souplesse (General) : Effects : By practicing intense acrobatics and gymnastics daily, the character gains a +1 enhancement to his Dexterity score for the next 8 hours of the day. The training has to be kept for 2 hours (minimum) every day, otherwise the effect cannot be obtained, unless the character spends twice as long to recover his good shape. Resting, sleeping or inconsciousness ends the effect. Vigor (General) : Effects : By practicing intense endurance workout daily, the character gains a +1 enhancement to his Constitution score for the next 8 hours of the day. The training has to be kept for 2 hours (minimum) every day, otherwise the effect cannot be obtained, unless the character spends twice as long to recover his good shape. Resting, sleeping or inconsciousness ends the effect. Of course, some players mighht want to invest into these three feats, but they would have then to train for 6 hours every morning, to get the effects for a quite similar duration (actually for 4, 6 and 8 hours), which wouldn't be worth it. Some similar training can be developped for mental abilities, like Intelligence (reading, researching) and Wisdom (meditation, focusing).
Egarb 09-14-06, 11:01 AM	I always kinda thought that people with NPC classes would gain levels differently that people with PC class levels would. I mean, PC are PC because theyre adventurers, whatever set of skills they happen to be using is just how they accomplish in their profession. IE Adventurers gain XP by adventuring. Commoners on the other hand arent adventurers, so they gain XP by doing theyre job. That farmer gets XP for farming. That scribe scribes things to gain levels. If its a challenge, it gets you xp. For an adventurer, reading a book, farming, or scribing all day under your cranky boss, simply isnt a challenge. For those CR 1/2 peasants it is. So that means, that if you have a level one warrior who weight trains, he gains levels.
ReverendBSB 09-15-06, 07:49 PM	I have thought about adding feats in my game to raise attributes, but using skill points seems way to easy to me. When you think about what it takes to improve your strength, dexterity in the real world, just using skill points seems overpowered.
rydi123 09-15-06, 11:53 PM	why not use these rules, or just some modification of them: Stephen “Shoe” Schubert, Developer It’s You, Not Your Gear: Treasure is reduced 10-15% and permanent ability score boosting items are banned. Instead, characters get a stat increase at every even level (instead of every four levels) and a feat at every odd level. or you could just offer the epic feats (great charisma, great dex, etc) as non-epic feats. or, if you are set on the physical prowess skill, you could make it work differently so that you cant just keep going up in your strong stats. Maybe allow the skill to only give +2 to a stat ever, and make the pc keep thier ranks at max or lose the bonus (when you stop working out, the muscle goes away).
Drodain 09-16-06, 12:23 AM	The above posters last idea I would not have a problem with, but other than that it just doesn't seem to work. I've always thought the stat point at every four levels WAS them working hard at that thing, there is just an affect at the fourth level. Having a skill double that effect at level 1 is a lot. I wouldn't use it unless it was high powered or you needed to keep max ranks. Just have like Physical Training(Dex), Physical Training(Str), Mental Training(Wis). Require 4 ranks for an unnamed +1 and 8 for +2, if ranks are not raised at a standard rate the effect is lost until caught up.
theotherdraxen 09-16-06, 01:55 AM	I would suggest basing it off the point buy method (in the DMG pg 169), so that strong stats are exponentially harder to increase than weak stats. You can put ranks into Training (stat name). For every 4 ranks you have, you get one point to increase a stat, but by the point-buy method. If you have a 7 strength, you can put 4 ranks (the max at 1st level) to buy a 9. However, if you have a 16 wisdom, buying a 17 will require putting 12 ranks into Training (wisdom).
sren 09-16-06, 10:31 PM	Just thought I'd add my two cents: There is a feat called "open mind" that gives you five skill points (I believe its in the XPH, but its not a psionic feat), and an epic feat that gives a character a +1 stat bonus, so, in my opinion, a stat bonus is worth 5 skill points at epic level, so should be worth more at pre-epic levels (where that +1 to hit and damage is far more important). Althought I'm not sure I'd be ready to implement it in my game, I do have a suggestion. This would be a variation on the idea of "it's you, not your gear" posted above. Let characters spend XP and gold to train themselves, instead of skill points. Spending XP represents propper time allocated to training, and gold is spent for training equipment, instruction, propper diet or even things like inscense that helps create a propper learning environment. The ammount spent should be equivilent to making a normal magic item, modified to make it slottless and not vulnerable to dispelling/anti-magic/null magic (should be about a x3 multiplier). So the market value would be bonus-squared times 3,000 GP. It takes half that value in gold for training aids (which are consumed or broken in the training), 1/25th of that value in XP, and 1 day in training for every 1,000 GP in value. Treat the final bonus as an enhancement bonus so it doesn't stack with normal magic items (or multiply the market value by two if you want it to stack with enhancement bonuses). Enforce the training time as consecutive days, or at least complete weeks at a time (but don't charge the gold or XP until training is completed) to enforce the idea of completing training regemins. Also, pre epic limit the characters to a +6 bonus, and maybe only allow them to buy +2 chunks at a time. This doesn't chane the balance of the game too much, lets characters choose some of their improvements (vs. waiting for the DM to assign magic items in loot), and mimics reality by enforcing the idea that training is free and gets harder for each additional step. Edit: Fixed typos.
Zersch 09-17-06, 02:05 PM	There does seem to be quite a number of viable possiblities presented here, but I'm actually surprised that I haven't seen this one yet. If a character does and can perform a feat of strength, through roleplaying (i.e, single-handedly lifts a heavy portcullis gate, actually grapples an ogre to the ground, etc), shouldn't the DM just consider, "Hey, that was a mighty cool idea, and the fact that they pulled it off impresses me to no end." and possibly award the character with a point of Strength right there on the spot, at the end of the session, or the next time they pass out experience? While this does present some problems for weaker characters, I don't see why they can't as well attempt it. Maybe not to the scale of the examples I gave, but something slightly more (maybe two or three more points above) difficult than there current Strength score. Inversly, why can't the same be applied for Intelligent ideas? Something so mind-shattering that it could affect the whole story arc, the region that they are in, or something like that. Basically, I feel that there are more than an adequate number of skills, and quite a sufficient number of feats out there. Why must experience only be dolled out with a numerical effect? Why can't someone gain a point in any ability with a truly amazing, astonishing, and awesome effect, as an experience award? I do apologize that this deviates a little, but I wanted to encompass everything with this thought.
a_psh 09-17-06, 02:12 PM	Back in the day, they used to be a saying on the Psionics boards, which was used to explain why making up some feats to fix 3.0 Psionics was a bad idea: "Feats should be nice, not required." This indicated that if something is so good that you basically had no choice but to take it, it shouldn't be an optional ability in the first place. Similar concept applies here: Skills should be nice, not required. As written, every martial character and every character with skill points to burn will want this skill. Badly. Rogues, clerics, wizards, fighters, barbarians, everybody!
mattdm 09-17-06, 03:57 PM	I have thought about adding feats in my game to raise attributes, but using skill points seems way to easy to me. When you think about what it takes to improve your strength, dexterity in the real world, just using skill points seems overpowered. Skill points seems particularly bad because it's a bit odd that high-skill point classes like rogues, scouts, and even rangers and bards would have the most benefit -- followed by wizards with their high intelligence. Sorcerers often have low or average int, so they probably don't have the extra skill points to blow. The feat idea seems okay if you really like this. Or, how about trying this: start at a low-total point buy for ability scores and give out additional "points" which may be spent on increasing stats at every level, replacing the standard +1-to-an-ability-every-4-levels.
Neofish 09-17-06, 05:29 PM	I think that sounds nice, but I would rule that the "Wizard" hitting the weights would only gain a single point in attribute he wanted every 4 character level... :D
Ltheb Liadon 09-17-06, 05:46 PM	Why not make the bonus an inherent bonus? It wouldn't stack with the tomes, (which do the same thing magically.)
mattdm 09-17-06, 08:06 PM	To expand on my idea above: For all characters, start with 15 point ability score point buy. Then, replace the standard ability score increase every four levels with an additional point-buy point every level. This point can be either spent immediately or stored for later. The 20th-level result is a 35-point point buy, which sounds astronomical, but, consider that most 4-level ability score increases go into an already-high score, and so are worth the equivalent of 16 or more points each. This solves the issue of not knowing what you wanted at first level, while letting all characters grow into power.