Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jal Dorak 07-21-05, 05:41 PM	Here is our groups solution to the maligned sorcerer. Instead of using measly charisma, use constitution as the primary ability modifier. Taking a level 10 sorcerer with maximum HD rolls, you have the following: Old: 12 STR, 16 DEX, 12 CON, 10 WIS, 14 INT, 18 CHA (+1 to hit, +3 AC, 50hp, +1 fort, +3 reflex, +0 will, +20 skill points, +4 charisma checks) New: 12 STR, 14 DEX, 18 CON, 12 WIS, 16 INT, 10 CHA (+1 to hit, +2 AC, 80hp, +4 fort, +2 reflex, +2 will, +30 skill points, +0 charisma checks) I certainly would rather use the second, but is it unbalancing? I don't think so, even a bard has minimum 60hp, so the increase isn't that much. Any comments? Good, bad, how will this affect other gameplay issues? I realize this may have come up in the past.
Lord Schpungus 07-21-05, 07:02 PM	So, just because you've got a huge gut and some set of lungs, you can cast awesomely? Don't make no sense. Try making charisma more useful rather than dumping it like a chump.
Sir Knight 07-22-05, 07:46 AM	Charisma is one of the most useful stats in my opinion... My straight Fighter has the following stats: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 14. I like balance but I would rather have a high Cha than Dex or Con. I like to play smart Fighters who use all the tools they have, including diplomacy, to get out of combats. But, if there is no option, they can kick butt! :) I would question WHY you want to not use Cha for Sorcerers... keep in mind that they use Cha for balance reasons and you wouldn't want to mess that up, you know?
Jal Dorak 07-22-05, 11:26 AM	Unfortunately I had initially prepared a long post, which I then lost and didn't feel like rewriting, in which I explained the why. First of all, our group has specific issues with the sorcerers combat abilities...maybe this could be simply fixed by giving them something like bonus fighter feats. More importantly, the actual ROLEPLAYING issue of using charisma was never satisfactory..."Yeah, every sorcerer has dragon ancestry and some of their abilities, translating to good looks and/or a quick wit, and this is reflected in the high charisma score." Keep in mind, that in general I usually have decent CHA for my PCs, right now I am playing a CHA 20 Paladin, and I've had a CHA 16 Rogue recently. The issue relates to the generic sorcerer outlook of my whole group. Wisdom makes sense for some, it is a perceptual, thoughtful stat, exactly what is required for a druid or cleric. Intelligence makes sense for some, it represents learning and problem solving, exactly what is required for a wizard. And I do think charisma is appropriate for bards. My group feels that the bard is using their performance to cast their spells. As for why CON? Well, the sorcerer is a natural caster. So being attractive or self-aware makes you able to cast high-level spells? Maybe. But being strong of body and having the ability to withstand physically the strong arcane forces required for spontaneous casting, now to me that sounds cool. Perhaps it is unbalancing...but how? Specifically? Other than a sorcerer having more hp, which isn't a problem for me. Are there certain feats that become useless/accessable? Did they intend for most sorcerers to succumb to fort-save spells? I suppose I should also mention that in my last campaign I generally added small bonuses to each class, so each core class was slightly more able.
DarkJediReborn 07-22-05, 11:43 AM	Why should how tough your body is relate to how powerful your spells are, or for that matter how many you can cast? Personally, I say leave Sorcerers as Charisma casters. Their magic is inborn talent, shaped and molded by their personality. They need to have a strong, forceful personality to shape and mold the magic within them, not necessarily a strong body. However, if you do decide that magic is extremely dangerous to wield and can tear characters apart, then you would need to rethink the mechanics for each spellcaster and not simply the sorcerer.
AesirRaven 07-22-05, 12:26 PM	According to the RAW, Sorcerors should be Wisdom casters. Check their class description, you'll see the word "intuitive" in relation to their magic. That keyword appears under Wisdom, not Charisma. Charisma only makes sense if you're trying to BS the universe to get your effect, and that's not what Sorcerors do. But as we all know, WotC needed another Charisma-caster, so they nerfed Sorcerors from the outset to get it. :rolleyes:
spamfiltre 07-22-05, 01:18 PM	Old: 12 STR, 16 DEX, 12 CON, 10 WIS, 14 INT, 18 CHA (+1 to hit, +3 AC, 50hp, +1 fort, +3 reflex, +0 will, +20 skill points, +4 charisma checks) New: 12 STR, 14 DEX, 18 CON, 12 WIS, 16 INT, 10 CHA (+1 to hit, +2 AC, 80hp, +4 fort, +2 reflex, +2 will, +30 skill points, +0 charisma checks) It looks like you want a high CON character without making any sacrifices. That might not be the case, but that's what it looks like. CHA is the traditional dump stat, which I believe is one reason why CHA-based casters were created. The CHA-based caster is now well established, with Bards, Favored Souls, Sorcerors, and Warlocks all falling into that category. The problem is the changing definition of CHA. Using the current definition, which includes force of personality, CHA-based casters can be seen as using magic by literally bending the universe to fit their own definition of what is right. For example, one way to look at it is the Sorceror doesn't cast a spell so much as bring a fireball into existence because he believes it should exist. If you are talking modifications to the system, make Sorcerors more like Favored Souls. Charisma governs spells per day while Wisdom governs max spell level (or the other way around). This isn't the character optimization board, so I can justify saying that not every character must have an 18 in a primary stat. Instead of this stat block: 12 STR, 14 DEX, 18 CON, 12 WIS, 16 INT, 10 CHA You could easily use this one: 10 STR, 12 DEX, 18 CON, 12 WIS, 14 INT, 16 CHA or this one: 10 STR, 16 DEX, 18 CON, 12 WIS, 12 INT, 14 CHA etc. Since this isn't the character optimization board, I can freely state that casters don't have to have maximum stats to be effective. It's called diversity. Not everyone is an A student, which is why we have both scientists and politicians in the world. Maybe your High-CON, low-CHA Sorceror should choose another line of work after 4th, 6th or 8th level?
Ilium 07-22-05, 01:32 PM	If you really wanted to, you could let each sorcerer character have spellcasting based on a stat (or stats) of choice. So you would have the charismatic sorcerer (CHA), the robust sorcerer (CON), the clever sorcerer (INT), and even the "mystic" sorcerer (WIS). I don't see how you could use STR or DEX, but I'm sure somebody could come up with something. :) But yes this would tend to make CHA even more of a dump stat than it is, but in most campaigns there are consequences for that. The point is, it would prevent every sorcerer looking the same without having to make all new classes. If you want to have a sorcerer who can go toe-to-toe in melee, you put good stats in Dex and Con, make him a Robust Sorcerer, and give him Weapon Finesse for his touch spell attacks. Maybe throw in Still Spell so he can cast spells in armor and you're good to go. He's not a perfectly efficient build, but he's interesting to play.
Myrdinn 07-22-05, 01:35 PM	I think that he means that the Sorcerer draws on his life-force to cast spells. And dosn't that make more sense than his force of personality? But thats only my opinion.
Crystal Monk 07-22-05, 03:01 PM	As for why CON? Well, the sorcerer is a natural caster. So being attractive or self-aware makes you able to cast high-level spells? Maybe. But being strong of body and having the ability to withstand physically the strong arcane forces required for spontaneous casting, now to me that sounds cool. Why should how tough your body is relate to how powerful your spells are, or for that matter how many you can cast? Personally, I say leave Sorcerers as Charisma casters. Their magic is inborn talent, shaped and molded by their personality. They need to have a strong, forceful personality to shape and mold the magic within them, not necessarily a strong body. However, if you do decide that magic is extremely dangerous to wield and can tear characters apart, then you would need to rethink the mechanics for each spellcaster and not simply the sorcerer. odd thing is, I agree with both of these arguments. I think either intrepretation of where a sorcerer's magic comes from would work. however, you would need a reason as to why only Sorcerers are 'physical' casters and not any other class. as for game balance, there are two things to consider. first, there's the matter of hit points, but that's only going to amount to 1-3 more per hit die at first. CON-based Sorcerers might be a little harder to kill, and that's something you'd have to decide on your own if it was imbalancing. also, most of a Sorcerer's skills are CHA-based, so making CON a Sorcerer's main stat would usually lead to them being less effective with some of their class skills. I'm not sure if this is imbalancing, but it could be frustrating for the player. According to the RAW, Sorcerors should be Wisdom casters. Check their class description, you'll see the word "intuitive" in relation to their magic. That keyword appears under Wisdom, not Charisma. Charisma only makes sense if you're trying to BS the universe to get your effect, and that's not what Sorcerors do. I dunno, if Sorcerers are supposed to be charismatic and good at interaction, maybe they are BSing the universe into thinking they can cast spells. :rofl: If you really wanted to, you could let each sorcerer character have spellcasting based on a stat (or stats) of choice. So you would have the charismatic sorcerer (CHA), the robust sorcerer (CON), the clever sorcerer (INT), and even the "mystic" sorcerer (WIS). I don't see how you could use STR or DEX, but I'm sure somebody could come up with something. :) ah, those would be the Flexing Sorcerer (originally from the half-orcs) and the Dancing Sorcerer (elvish in origin, often mistaken for a bard). :D :D :D
Venom of the Yuan Ti 07-22-05, 04:19 PM	Sorcerours use cha because they can change reality with THE FORCE OF THIER PERSONALTY AND WILL!! None of this naby pamby memorisation, a sorcerour simply decides the world should be differant (like, it should be a world containing a ball of molten fire (yes I know!) or one that has them several miles away) AND IT IS!!! That is the reson for Cha.
DragonBringerX 07-22-05, 04:45 PM	The point is, it would prevent every sorcerer looking the same without having to make all new classes. If you want to have a sorcerer who can go toe-to-toe in melee, you put good stats in Dex and Con, make him a Robust Sorcerer, and give him Weapon Finesse for his touch spell attacks. Maybe throw in Still Spell so he can cast spells in armor and you're good to go. He's not a perfectly efficient build, but he's interesting to play. If you realy want a sor who can go toe-to-toe in melee combat, and still be a powerful caster, just pick up enlighten fist in the complete arcane by level 20 [ 10 sor/ 10 enl fist] you have a 17 caster level, 8th level spells, 3 attacks, and realy kewl special abilities. eg. the ability to attack w/ a touch spell at the same time!! :mage: BUT, sense class build isn't what your looking for, i'll throw in my 2 cents :twocents:. leave the sor how it is, if you realy want to play a stronger sor, then play warmage (complete arcane class), or just make your second highest score CON, third highest STR...DOEN!! :D
Jal Dorak 07-22-05, 04:53 PM	I completely agree that Wisdom seems a more appropriate stat for determining spells per day, and I like the dual primary stat idea. I can definetly see the flavour change to the class, and it does mess with their class skills (something I hadn't considered). As for the ability scores I used, I wasn't optimizing the numbers themselves, I just picked average rolls and put them where most sorcerers would. Thanks for the suggestions. Also, multiclassing a low-cha, high-con sorcerer into barbarian or monk would be cool.
Ilium 07-22-05, 08:26 PM	If you realy want a sor who can go toe-to-toe in melee combat, and still be a powerful caster, just pick up enlighten fist in the complete arcane by level 20 [ 10 sor/ 10 enl fist] you have a 17 caster level, 8th level spells, 3 attacks, and realy kewl special abilities. eg. the ability to attack w/ a touch spell at the same time!! :mage: BUT, sense class build isn't what your looking for, i'll throw in my 2 cents :twocents:. leave the sor how it is, if you realy want to play a stronger sor, then play warmage (complete arcane class), or just make your second highest score CON, third highest STR...DOEN!! :D I wasn't really going for more powerful, just more flavorful. I figure if you let the sorcerer pick his casting stat, you get 6 different "flavors" of sorcerer without needing a bunch of extra classes. They could be lineages or arcane traditions or whatever. Just seems like a good way to tweak the class without re-writing the whole thing. No sorcerer will be a really effective melee fighter without multi-classing, though, I agree. Even if you have a 20 Strength, that poor BAB and armor restrictions will be no fun. :)
MadBlue 07-23-05, 02:59 AM	According to the RAW, Sorcerors should be Wisdom casters. Check their class description, you'll see the word "intuitive" in relation to their magic. That keyword appears under Wisdom, not Charisma.Sure, their magic is "intuitive", but that's in the context it not being "logical" - it means that they don't study, it just comes to them naturally. The flavor text also uses the words "innate", "inborn talent", "raw power directed at will" and "part of his soul" to describe how their magic works. There's a reason why creatures have innate supernatural abilities tied to Charisma and why Sorcerers base their spellcasting on Charisma, and it's not just "to give Charisma something to do". Charisma only makes sense if you're trying to BS the universe to get your effect, and that's not what Sorcerors do.Or if you don't limit yourself to that one explanation of why Sorcerer spells are based on Charisma. MadBlue
Crystal Monk 07-23-05, 10:05 AM	Sure, their magic is "intuitive", but that's in the context it not being "logical" - it means that they don't study, it just comes to them naturally. The flavor text also uses the words "innate", "inborn talent", "raw power directed at will" and "part of his soul" to describe how their magic works. There's a reason why creatures have innate supernatural abilities tied to Charisma and why Sorcerers base their spellcasting on Charisma, and it's not just "to give Charisma something to do". the thing is, though, if you go by the flavor text of a sorcerer's magic being innate and inborn, rather than something they study, then in theory couldn't it come from any part of themselves, rather than just what's represented by their Charisma? a high-INT or high-WIS sorcerer might believe that their magic comes from understanding the world on a higher level and thus being able to manipulate it, while a high-DEX sorcerer might believe that they create magic through their intricate and, to some others, impossible movements. I'm not disagreeing with you - I think the flavor text provides a good reason as to why CHA was the stat chosen for sorcerers. but the same text also could be used to base sorcerers' magic in any stat.
MadBlue 07-23-05, 03:18 PM	the thing is, though, if you go by the flavor text of a sorcerer's magic being innate and inborn, rather than something they study, then in theory couldn't it come from any part of themselves, rather than just what's represented by their Charisma? a high-INT or high-WIS sorcerer might believe that their magic comes from understanding the world on a higher level and thus being able to manipulate it, while a high-DEX sorcerer might believe that they create magic through their intricate and, to some others, impossible movements.I don't disagree with you. There are a number of ways to fit spellcasting to a particular stat. I just feel that the way the Sorcerer's spellcasting is fit to Charisma works well. A Wizard learns spells through study. A Cleric learns spells through connection to a higher power. A Sorcerer 's magical ability wells up from within, and he manipulates it through force of will (note - not the same as "willpower", i.e. resistance - which is the domain of Wisdom, but evoking one's will, in the sense of manipulating the forces of magic to do what one wants it to do). Wisdom-based spellcasting has to do with a kind of attunenment to the Cosmos. Charisma based spellcasting has to do with manipulating and shaping power that wells up from within. I'm not disagreeing with you - I think the flavor text provides a good reason as to why CHA was the stat chosen for sorcerers. but the same text also could be used to base sorcerers' magic in any stat.I understand what you're saying. I think a lot of what Charisma represents isn't stressed in the Charisma flavor text, but if you take into account how it's treated in the Monster Manual and other sources, it makes more sense than just going by what the Charisma flavor text suggests. :) MadBlue