New spellsystem - need opinions WIP [Archive] - Wizards Community

New spellsystem - need opinions WIP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
polt
07-27-05, 06:22 PM So, I've tried to adapt the True20 spellsystem into D&D for some time now, and this is what I came up with. I'd like to use it in my Eberron campaing.

I like the system, it's better than the one in the PHB if you ask me. Kinda reminds me of Raistlin though.
The cool thing is you don't have to worry if you'll have enough spells left if you go into combat later.

No more parties suddenly going to sleep in the middle of the afternoon so the wizard can regain spells.

Fatigue spell system:

Most spells in the PHB will be causing fatigue. Basically every time a Wizard casts a spell, he'll need to make a Will or Fortitude save (which ever is higher).
The DC for this save is: 6 + 1/2 caster lvl rounded down + spell lvl.

For example. Mira a 7th lvl Wizard casts a 2nd lvl spell. The DC would then be: 6 + 3 + 2 = 11.

If a wizard casts many spells in a short period of time, the DC increases by 1
for every spell he casts.

The DC goes back to normal when he's healed one step of fatigue.

There are three steps of Fatigue levels. You recover one every hour you don't strain yourself. You can't fight or cast spells.

The three steps are: Winded, Fatigued and Exhausted.

Winded: -2 to strength and dex. Cannot charge.
Fatigued: Cannot charge and -4 to str and dex.
Exhausted: Near collapse. -6 to str and dex. Move half speed. If a character who is exhausted suffer additional fatigue, he falls unconscious.

I'm thinking of doing something like: 10 points in concentration gives you +1 on your will save against fatigue.
Also I'm thinking of doing something like, when you get 3rd lvl spells, 1st spells no longer increase the DC.
And when you get 4th lvl spells, 2nd lvl spells no longer increase the DC. And so on.

But I'd like some help with this. So please give your opinions and thoughts. Not much? Or a whole lot?
Gilean
07-28-05, 01:49 AM Instead of wizard level (which has no basis anywhere, why should it be more straining to cast spells whne you are more skilled at it?) you should use caster level, so mage can opt to cast the spell with less efficiency to not succumb to fatigue as easily.
polt
07-28-05, 06:58 AM Isn't caster lvl the same as his wizard lvl?

Problem is, one of the factors when deciding the DC should be a growing factor. If not, it'll be almost impossible to fail the save for a 1st and 2nd lvl spell, when lvl 7-8.
greatmoat
07-28-05, 07:04 AM No more parties suddenly going to sleep in the middle of the afternoon so the wizard can regain spells.

Now there are parties having a siesta at midday so the wizard can rest :)
polt
07-28-05, 07:06 AM He can still travel. And he can still cast spells or fight, then he just have to wait another hour before regaining a level of fatigue.

So they don't have to stop. They can still explore, or travel.

I've changed wizard Lvl to caster lvl now.
polt
07-28-05, 09:36 AM Okay, I changed the DC a bit. Now it's 6 + 1/2 caster lvl rounded down + spell lvl.

Problem is, that with what I did before (8 + 1/2 spell lvl + 1/2 caster lvl) a lot of the DC's stayed the same. Actually 1st, 2nd and 3rd always had the same save. Which is stupid :)
polt
07-28-05, 05:14 PM Okay.

I'm gonna clear things about a bit, on how I'm thinking of using this system.

Firstly, I almost never play with sorcs. I don't like them, my players don't like them, so that's that.

Therefore I'll choose to ignore the effects this will have on the sorcerer.

Another thing is, I houseruled the part about Wizards automatically getting 2 free spells every lvl. They get spells when they find them.

Therefore I have some form of control over which spell the Wizard gets.

Also, my idea is to apply this system to arcane casters only. Therefore clerics, druids, paladins and rangers stay the same.

How does this effect things?
I kinda like it, because the difference between arcane and divine casters get bigger.
Gilean
07-29-05, 03:49 AM It ovepowers divine casters, who are (arguably) overpowered as is.

Caster level for the simple reason that it can be lowered. A wizard of 9th level can choose to cast fireball with caster level 7, reducing damage and range, if that is desirable. With your system, there actually is a reason to do that.
polt
07-29-05, 04:18 AM How does it overpower divine caster? The way I've tested this, the wizard gets to cast more spells more often than fewer.
Zycko
07-30-05, 03:45 AM I think (but not sure) that Gileans point was your rule about wizards having to find their spells is overpowering divine casters. I think that was what his comment was directed against, not the currently discussed houserule.

I will be back later with some judgement of the houserule in question (since I have been up almost 24h now, for no reason :P)
draco2005
07-31-05, 02:08 PM I have a suggestion for you. There is a spellcasting system that deals with saves DCs and such. From the campaign sourcebook "Soverign Stone", it gives a system where a spellcaster must roll a d20 to cast a spell. Each spell has a casting threshold (CT). Whenever a spell is cast, he/she must roll a d20, plus int. modifier, and any other modifier he/she might have. If the roll is a success, the spell goes off as normal. If not, the spell is waisted.
Also, channeling magic is dangerous and stressful to the caster. For each round the wizard spends spellcasting, he/she must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC=10+spell level). Each time a save is failed, the caster takes 1d4 points of subdual damage. I don't know how the CTs are determined, but I am sure you can find a way to sort that out.

Draco
polt
09-27-05, 08:28 AM I'm also thinking of maybe making the DC one higher for every step of fatigue you have? Maybe be too harsh.
Thelon Fairblade
09-27-05, 09:10 AM Wait, are you saying that the wizard can cast as often as he wants, no limits on daily spells, excepting the fatigue issues it causes?

Have you extrapolated this formula up through the higher levels? By level 20, the wizard will only have a +6 to fort save, but a 9th level spell is DC 6 + 10 + 9 = 25 = must roll a 19 on a d20 to cast the spell without fatigue.

Of course, I would assume that the mage in this system would have a CON of at least 14 (18 by level 20), and perhaps Great Fortitude and Endurance as required feats, bringing this down to 13 or 11 for 9th level, and 4 or 2 for 1st level. Plus, the 20th level mage would have 23 ranks of Concentration, for another +2 to the roll.

As it happens, I am running a campaign where sorcerers (and battlesorcerers) fatigue themselves with spellcasting. Like yours, it is a Fort save. Failure, in my game, results in fatigue for 1 round per spell level. Fail while fatigued, and you are exhausted for 1 minute per spell level. Fail while exhausted, and you are knocked out for 10 minutes. The DC is artifically set at 16 for your highest level spells, and -2 for each lower level. (cantrips don't fatigue.) However, you are still limited by your normal daily allotment of spells.

In this system, Great Fortitude is pretty much a required feat for sorcerers and battlesorcerers, with Endurance also a big hit (house rule, Endurance provides +4 to resist fatigue).
polt
09-27-05, 09:14 AM It says Fort OR will save :)
Thelon Fairblade
09-28-05, 09:55 AM Well.... that makes a big difference! :)
Linkrulesx10
09-28-05, 11:26 AM hmm I think you should look at the system in unearthed arcarna, that may provide you with some ideas... maybe a meshing of the two systems since a person with lucky die roles can go blast after blast after blast infinently... When i say to refer to UA i mean the system where caster have unlimited spells but can only cast their highest every so often... not the spell point.
RobertJ
09-28-05, 11:47 AM I'd favor some sort of Charisma check, personally. Would make Charisma valuable to Wizards, and favors the Sorceror class in the same way they're already favored-- more spells cast per day.
Arcade
09-28-05, 12:22 PM You should consider characters that switch classes a lot for will saves. For instance, a Mystic Theurge build could be a 3rd level wizard, 3rd level cleric, 2nd level mystic theurge at 8th level with a base will save of +9. Grab a cloak of protection, a decent wisdom modifier, and iron will, and your wil save can easily be at +14. Let's say they take that feat that let's them use their cleric levels to add in as caster level.

So this guy can cast 3rd level spells at 8th caster level. That is a DC of 6+4+3 is 13. With his +14 will save, he never has to worry about failing those saves. (barring natural 1) Even over a short period of time, he will likely go 5 or 6 rounds before failing a save. And he can always cut back the power after the first few rounds to make sure he will only fail on a natural 1.

I suggest adopting the optional rule under the injury system in UA to limit the +2 bonus for good saves so that each character can only gain them once per saving throw. This will mean the mystic theurge from above is only at +10 for saves. Still rather high and likely to be casting spells likely crazy, but it's better.

And definitely make exhaustion affect the saves. Dex and str bonuses are bad for wizards, but compared to unlimited spellcastng, they probably don't care. My wizards would likely take -6 to str and dex voluntarily if it meant casting spells an unlimited amount per day. Characters like bladesingers and eldritch knights may feel differently about it however.
polt
09-28-05, 12:27 PM Okay. How about +1 DC for every point of exhausten, but lower the DC thing to 5 + (allthatotherstuff)
Arcade
09-28-05, 01:08 PM Maybe you need to define what "If a wizard casts many spells in a short period of time, the DC increases by 1 for every spell he casts" entails. What is a short period of time? A few rounds? A few minutes? A few hours? You make it sound that every hour that you go without fighting or casting spells will reset the DC increase.

Another thought that just occured to me is the recharge variant. Not because you should use it here, but because there are a bunch of spells they gave specific recharge times to because it would be unbalancing if they didn't. For instance, unlimited charm person spells would make everyone in a village the caster's best friend. Unlimited teleports lets you transport a small army in the course of a few hours.

And technically, undead don't suffer from fatigue, though I'm sure you'd apply this rule to them to stop liches and vampire wizards from ruling the world.
polt
09-28-05, 01:12 PM When you rest 1 point of fatigue, the DC resets. The point of this is that the wizards can use his magic for utility, to do cool stuff, and don't worry about "Will I be totallyu useless in combat later?"
Thelon Fairblade
09-30-05, 09:54 AM Another good point: make it an intrinsic Will save, i.e. no spell effects or items. Just you and your feats (if any).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
polt 07-27-05, 06:22 PM	So, I've tried to adapt the True20 spellsystem into D&D for some time now, and this is what I came up with. I'd like to use it in my Eberron campaing. I like the system, it's better than the one in the PHB if you ask me. Kinda reminds me of Raistlin though. The cool thing is you don't have to worry if you'll have enough spells left if you go into combat later. No more parties suddenly going to sleep in the middle of the afternoon so the wizard can regain spells. Fatigue spell system: Most spells in the PHB will be causing fatigue. Basically every time a Wizard casts a spell, he'll need to make a Will or Fortitude save (which ever is higher). The DC for this save is: 6 + 1/2 caster lvl rounded down + spell lvl. For example. Mira a 7th lvl Wizard casts a 2nd lvl spell. The DC would then be: 6 + 3 + 2 = 11. If a wizard casts many spells in a short period of time, the DC increases by 1 for every spell he casts. The DC goes back to normal when he's healed one step of fatigue. There are three steps of Fatigue levels. You recover one every hour you don't strain yourself. You can't fight or cast spells. The three steps are: Winded, Fatigued and Exhausted. Winded: -2 to strength and dex. Cannot charge. Fatigued: Cannot charge and -4 to str and dex. Exhausted: Near collapse. -6 to str and dex. Move half speed. If a character who is exhausted suffer additional fatigue, he falls unconscious. I'm thinking of doing something like: 10 points in concentration gives you +1 on your will save against fatigue. Also I'm thinking of doing something like, when you get 3rd lvl spells, 1st spells no longer increase the DC. And when you get 4th lvl spells, 2nd lvl spells no longer increase the DC. And so on. But I'd like some help with this. So please give your opinions and thoughts. Not much? Or a whole lot?
Gilean 07-28-05, 01:49 AM	Instead of wizard level (which has no basis anywhere, why should it be more straining to cast spells whne you are more skilled at it?) you should use caster level, so mage can opt to cast the spell with less efficiency to not succumb to fatigue as easily.
polt 07-28-05, 06:58 AM	Isn't caster lvl the same as his wizard lvl? Problem is, one of the factors when deciding the DC should be a growing factor. If not, it'll be almost impossible to fail the save for a 1st and 2nd lvl spell, when lvl 7-8.
greatmoat 07-28-05, 07:04 AM	No more parties suddenly going to sleep in the middle of the afternoon so the wizard can regain spells. Now there are parties having a siesta at midday so the wizard can rest :)
polt 07-28-05, 07:06 AM	He can still travel. And he can still cast spells or fight, then he just have to wait another hour before regaining a level of fatigue. So they don't have to stop. They can still explore, or travel. I've changed wizard Lvl to caster lvl now.
polt 07-28-05, 09:36 AM	Okay, I changed the DC a bit. Now it's 6 + 1/2 caster lvl rounded down + spell lvl. Problem is, that with what I did before (8 + 1/2 spell lvl + 1/2 caster lvl) a lot of the DC's stayed the same. Actually 1st, 2nd and 3rd always had the same save. Which is stupid :)
polt 07-28-05, 05:14 PM	Okay. I'm gonna clear things about a bit, on how I'm thinking of using this system. Firstly, I almost never play with sorcs. I don't like them, my players don't like them, so that's that. Therefore I'll choose to ignore the effects this will have on the sorcerer. Another thing is, I houseruled the part about Wizards automatically getting 2 free spells every lvl. They get spells when they find them. Therefore I have some form of control over which spell the Wizard gets. Also, my idea is to apply this system to arcane casters only. Therefore clerics, druids, paladins and rangers stay the same. How does this effect things? I kinda like it, because the difference between arcane and divine casters get bigger.
Gilean 07-29-05, 03:49 AM	It ovepowers divine casters, who are (arguably) overpowered as is. Caster level for the simple reason that it can be lowered. A wizard of 9th level can choose to cast fireball with caster level 7, reducing damage and range, if that is desirable. With your system, there actually is a reason to do that.
polt 07-29-05, 04:18 AM	How does it overpower divine caster? The way I've tested this, the wizard gets to cast more spells more often than fewer.
Zycko 07-30-05, 03:45 AM	I think (but not sure) that Gileans point was your rule about wizards having to find their spells is overpowering divine casters. I think that was what his comment was directed against, not the currently discussed houserule. I will be back later with some judgement of the houserule in question (since I have been up almost 24h now, for no reason :P)
draco2005 07-31-05, 02:08 PM	I have a suggestion for you. There is a spellcasting system that deals with saves DCs and such. From the campaign sourcebook "Soverign Stone", it gives a system where a spellcaster must roll a d20 to cast a spell. Each spell has a casting threshold (CT). Whenever a spell is cast, he/she must roll a d20, plus int. modifier, and any other modifier he/she might have. If the roll is a success, the spell goes off as normal. If not, the spell is waisted. Also, channeling magic is dangerous and stressful to the caster. For each round the wizard spends spellcasting, he/she must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC=10+spell level). Each time a save is failed, the caster takes 1d4 points of subdual damage. I don't know how the CTs are determined, but I am sure you can find a way to sort that out. Draco
polt 09-27-05, 08:28 AM	I'm also thinking of maybe making the DC one higher for every step of fatigue you have? Maybe be too harsh.
Thelon Fairblade 09-27-05, 09:10 AM	Wait, are you saying that the wizard can cast as often as he wants, no limits on daily spells, excepting the fatigue issues it causes? Have you extrapolated this formula up through the higher levels? By level 20, the wizard will only have a +6 to fort save, but a 9th level spell is DC 6 + 10 + 9 = 25 = must roll a 19 on a d20 to cast the spell without fatigue. Of course, I would assume that the mage in this system would have a CON of at least 14 (18 by level 20), and perhaps Great Fortitude and Endurance as required feats, bringing this down to 13 or 11 for 9th level, and 4 or 2 for 1st level. Plus, the 20th level mage would have 23 ranks of Concentration, for another +2 to the roll. As it happens, I am running a campaign where sorcerers (and battlesorcerers) fatigue themselves with spellcasting. Like yours, it is a Fort save. Failure, in my game, results in fatigue for 1 round per spell level. Fail while fatigued, and you are exhausted for 1 minute per spell level. Fail while exhausted, and you are knocked out for 10 minutes. The DC is artifically set at 16 for your highest level spells, and -2 for each lower level. (cantrips don't fatigue.) However, you are still limited by your normal daily allotment of spells. In this system, Great Fortitude is pretty much a required feat for sorcerers and battlesorcerers, with Endurance also a big hit (house rule, Endurance provides +4 to resist fatigue).
polt 09-27-05, 09:14 AM	It says Fort OR will save :)
Thelon Fairblade 09-28-05, 09:55 AM	Well.... that makes a big difference! :)
Linkrulesx10 09-28-05, 11:26 AM	hmm I think you should look at the system in unearthed arcarna, that may provide you with some ideas... maybe a meshing of the two systems since a person with lucky die roles can go blast after blast after blast infinently... When i say to refer to UA i mean the system where caster have unlimited spells but can only cast their highest every so often... not the spell point.
RobertJ 09-28-05, 11:47 AM	I'd favor some sort of Charisma check, personally. Would make Charisma valuable to Wizards, and favors the Sorceror class in the same way they're already favored-- more spells cast per day.
Arcade 09-28-05, 12:22 PM	You should consider characters that switch classes a lot for will saves. For instance, a Mystic Theurge build could be a 3rd level wizard, 3rd level cleric, 2nd level mystic theurge at 8th level with a base will save of +9. Grab a cloak of protection, a decent wisdom modifier, and iron will, and your wil save can easily be at +14. Let's say they take that feat that let's them use their cleric levels to add in as caster level. So this guy can cast 3rd level spells at 8th caster level. That is a DC of 6+4+3 is 13. With his +14 will save, he never has to worry about failing those saves. (barring natural 1) Even over a short period of time, he will likely go 5 or 6 rounds before failing a save. And he can always cut back the power after the first few rounds to make sure he will only fail on a natural 1. I suggest adopting the optional rule under the injury system in UA to limit the +2 bonus for good saves so that each character can only gain them once per saving throw. This will mean the mystic theurge from above is only at +10 for saves. Still rather high and likely to be casting spells likely crazy, but it's better. And definitely make exhaustion affect the saves. Dex and str bonuses are bad for wizards, but compared to unlimited spellcastng, they probably don't care. My wizards would likely take -6 to str and dex voluntarily if it meant casting spells an unlimited amount per day. Characters like bladesingers and eldritch knights may feel differently about it however.
polt 09-28-05, 12:27 PM	Okay. How about +1 DC for every point of exhausten, but lower the DC thing to 5 + (allthatotherstuff)
Arcade 09-28-05, 01:08 PM	Maybe you need to define what "If a wizard casts many spells in a short period of time, the DC increases by 1 for every spell he casts" entails. What is a short period of time? A few rounds? A few minutes? A few hours? You make it sound that every hour that you go without fighting or casting spells will reset the DC increase. Another thought that just occured to me is the recharge variant. Not because you should use it here, but because there are a bunch of spells they gave specific recharge times to because it would be unbalancing if they didn't. For instance, unlimited charm person spells would make everyone in a village the caster's best friend. Unlimited teleports lets you transport a small army in the course of a few hours. And technically, undead don't suffer from fatigue, though I'm sure you'd apply this rule to them to stop liches and vampire wizards from ruling the world.
polt 09-28-05, 01:12 PM	When you rest 1 point of fatigue, the DC resets. The point of this is that the wizards can use his magic for utility, to do cool stuff, and don't worry about "Will I be totallyu useless in combat later?"
Thelon Fairblade 09-30-05, 09:54 AM	Another good point: make it an intrinsic Will save, i.e. no spell effects or items. Just you and your feats (if any).