New Take on Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

New Take on Skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeviat-DM
10-04-05, 03:38 AM Many people recently have been questioning about being able to use skills to purchase feats. After DMing for 3 years, I've come to feel that characters in D&D don't seem to have enough feats to fully customize their character the way they want them to be. Instead, people have to take PrCs to get the full effect they want, for the most part.

After playing a little bit of the L5R game (a d10 system), I found a mechanic that I'd like to explore for implimenting in D&D. The skill system in L5R (legend of the five rings, the game that started the Rokugan setting used in the 3rd edition OA book) has an interesting part of it that doesn't translate into D&D. In addition to gaining more ranks to have a better chance of achieving certain results with a skill, achieving certain ranks gives you new capabilities.

D&D already uses a skill synergy system, and that's close to what I'm looking for. But rather than just skill synergy, I think it may be interesting to grant characters new uses of a skill for achieving certain ranks. Just to throw out some ideas:

Balance: At some point, reduce the penalties taken for accelerated movement. Eventually add a (reasonable) DC to run across liquids or other surfaces that cannot support your weight (such as a branch), and eventually add a DC to remain still on such surfaces.
Bluff: Possibly reduce the time it takes to make bluff checks to feint (replacing improved feint). Possibly reduce the bluff modifier for making rediculous lies.

As you can see, many things can be came up with. Mainly, the two easiest things to do is reduce penalties associated with using a certain skill in certain ways (fast diplomacies, accelerated balance, climb, and tumble, jumping without a running start, ect.), or giving new uses (with appropriate, but achievable, DCs). Not sure how far this idea will go, but I think it would be an interesting ability to add depth to characters without rediculously powering them up.
IceFractal
10-04-05, 03:53 AM Some of those abilities are already available as Epic uses of the skill (although they can be achievable pre-Epic by a skill-centric character). For example:

Run across a branch: Balance, DC 40
Run across a liquid: Balance, DC 90
Detect magic just by looking: Appraise, DC 50
Turn someone from hostile to a fanatic follower: Diplomacy, DC 150
Pass through Wall of Force: Escape Artist, DC 120
Ignore falling damage: Tumble, DC 100
Animate rope: Use Rope, DC 80
weasel fierce
10-05-05, 12:41 AM Isnt this already covered, by higher skills letting you perform tasks at higher DC's ?

I'd rather see the feat and skill system combined into one, sane system, than add more rules to the skill system, IMO
FlameLover
10-05-05, 12:45 AM Ilike the idea of getting new uses for skills with more ranks invested, but lowering DCs isn't a good idea. You're already putting the ranks in, so that's not the best way to do things.

I think the new abiltities should be handed out at 8 ranks, 13 ranks, 18 ranks and 23 ranks. That means at the earlist you'd get a new ability at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20. Coming up with 4 abilities 4 each would be tough, but some of the current uses of abilities could be seperated. Like your example of Accelerated Climbing that "ability" should be gained at level 5 and maybe catching yourself while falling should be gained at level 15. Level 20 should give you a nigh-epic use of the skill like running on water for a round with a succesful balance check (you'd atuomatically fall after that though).

But yeah, i love the idea and i'm making a note of it for further development.

Isnt this already covered, by higher skills letting you perform tasks at higher DC's ?
I agree but the concept of getting almost mini-feats is good though, atleast IMO.

I'd rather see the feat and skill system combined into one, sane system, than add more rules to the skill system, IMO
Lovely idea, how do you propose doing such though?

Anyway i think their are quite a few feats that shouldn't actually be "feats". Like alot of the mounted feats should just be extra abilities gained from putting ranks into ride, for example. But if you have an idea how to combine the systems though i'd love to hear it since i'm making my own RPG currently and i'd like to integrate the system somehow.
RaspK FOG
10-05-05, 06:29 AM The concept is already worked out in the rules; apart from the various things you can accomplish albeit at a penalty (-XX on skill check, etc.), there also are the various 5 rank benefits added to some skills, like Tumble's bonus when fighting defensively, ability to read lips (Spot) and distinguish North (Survival).
FlameLover
10-05-05, 05:52 PM Yes but they should be expanded so you get more and more uses for skills as you level up. If i put 23 ranks into a skill i should have some unique options, not just the ability to do what i could 5 levels ago with magic items!
Xeviat-DM
10-05-05, 06:10 PM I know that a number of the abilities I tossed out as ideas (mainly the Balance skill ones) are already handled in the epic rules, but I feel that so few people play epic games, yet still might want something like that (I know my group does at times).

I didn't mean to suggest that DCs should be lowered, only that certain penalties could be lowered as a possible bonus. And yes, there are already a few (spot's, survival's, and tumble's), and there are synergies, but I think that the skill system has room for something like this.

BESM has a skill = feat system, sort of. I don't have the book, I've only browsed the SRD, so I don't know how it works exactly. L5R has an almost entirely skill based system, but I don't think I'd want to introduce that into D&D just yet (maybe for 4th).

If I get any more ideas on my own, I'll throw them out. Please contribute any of your own, because reading other's ideas often brings about more from other people.
FlameLover
10-05-05, 07:37 PM I'm going to give examples for each skill of special abilities you might gain from extra ranks in the skill.

Appraise
The ability to lower error margine (so to lessen the 50% + or - from a failed check) plus the ability to determine magical power like the Epic usage would be good. I think a DC30 check would be enough for determining if it's magical or not while a DC50 check would be required to work out it's exact powers (with ofcourse some varying degrees inbetween that).

Balance
With a few ranks you'd get the "not flat-footed while balancing" thing and at high levels you should be given some epic uses like walking on fragile branches and running on water for a round.

Bluff
Secret messages, diversions and suggestion abilities would all work, as well as lowering the DC for making a hasty bluff. Also combine the Improved Feint feat into the skill.

Climb
Lower DC modifiers, speed up climbing, catching self while falling... all good stuff. Add in the Epic ability to climb at normal movement speed and you're cracking :)

Concentration
Lower DC modifiers and come up with some more uses like a "meditation" thing ot something. This one is tricky but you should be able throw in enough stuff.

Craft
Just allow higher levels of masterworks and reduce crafting times, etc.

Decipher Script
Lower times, add in epic usage. This skill is sorta weak in standard D&D but with a more comprehensive language system could become very valuable.

Diplomacy
Faster diplomacy times, some extra uses like maybe haggling and the epic usage in some form.

Disable Device
Decrease time, allow it to effect more magic and that sorta stuff. I like the idea of a +1d6 damage against constructs or something myself.

Disguise
I think this should be rolled into either the Forgery and/or Bluff skills but if i had to keep it seperate i would just decrease time and lessen the modifiers for disguising as a non-standard subject, etc. Also throw in Epic usages.

Escape Artist
Faster, more uses and Epic stuff. I'd fold this into an Acrobatics skill myself though.

Forgery
Faster times, lower DC modifiers and Epic usage. Shouldn't be a skill in it's own right me thinks though.

Ok already getting tired of this but you get the idea. Just make things faster, more reliable and give some extra uses. For things like Ride you can give some feats for free though like Mounted Combat or Trample, etc.
Tenzhi
10-06-05, 03:42 AM I'd rather see the feat and skill system combined into one, sane system, than add more rules to the skill system, IMO

Agreed. Once you consider that combat is a skill, it's easy to foresee perhaps eliminating the intrinsic tie of feats to character level, and instead have feats gained via skill ranks (and most feats would be tied to specific skills as well).

Of course, once you go that far, it's just as easy to see tying skill ranks to level and thereby simplifying the entire process if simplicity rather than micromanagement is more up your alley.
weasel fierce
10-06-05, 03:46 AM Or even simply have feats have a certain cost in skill points.
But then, we're almost playing GURPS instead (not that 3.x D&D doesnt try to be GURPS, but it might be a transition some players wouldnt want)
Tenzhi
10-06-05, 04:16 AM Or even simply have feats have a certain cost in skill points.
But then, we're almost playing GURPS instead (not that 3.x D&D doesnt try to be GURPS, but it might be a transition some players wouldnt want)

Personally, I would lean towards the simplified rules I mentioned and away from the GURPiness. But that's because I don't like an overabundance of micromanagement. Some people do (and even more shockingly, some people like GURPS as well :P ).
Gilean
10-06-05, 12:38 PM For the OP, change skill focus to only grant a +2 bonus, and give access to these special abilities. An extra devotion to the skill.
RaspK FOG
10-06-05, 03:51 PM I'm going to give examples for each skill of special abilities you might gain from extra ranks in the skill.Most of the things you mention can be found as actions you can perform at a penalty on your check in Complete Adventurer, and that's partly what I meant earlier. ;)
Tenzhi
10-07-05, 12:35 AM The reason I'd prefer such actions to be feats rather than skill checks, is because I feel that most of them should be able to be automatically performed by a PC with the appropriae skill. Indeed, many of the so-called "Epic" uses of skills (and some of the Epic feats, for that matter) don't seem particularly "Epic" to me.

Walking on water, for instance, is something I'd expect from a 10-15th level monk or rogue.

Detecting magic should come naturally to a simlarly-levelled magic-user.
Xeviat-DM
10-17-05, 04:59 PM The reason I'd prefer such actions to be feats rather than skill checks, is because I feel that most of them should be able to be automatically performed by a PC with the appropriae skill. Indeed, many of the so-called "Epic" uses of skills (and some of the Epic feats, for that matter) don't seem particularly "Epic" to me.

Walking on water, for instance, is something I'd expect from a 10-15th level monk or rogue.

Detecting magic should come naturally to a simlarly-levelled magic-user.

I, on the other hand, think that certain things should be attainable at earlier levels, but with chances of failure. Sure, a 20th level monk should be able to stand or walk on water just fine, but a 10th level monk would have to try (the difference between the 20th level monk succeeding on a skill check of 1 vs the 10th level monk only succeeding on a skill check of 11). Likewise, for the 20th level monk, running on water (balance check -10 for running) would have a chance of failure, depending on the DCs.

I don't have stable internet connection anymore, but I'll try to post some more thoughts on Thursday.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 10-04-05, 03:38 AM	Many people recently have been questioning about being able to use skills to purchase feats. After DMing for 3 years, I've come to feel that characters in D&D don't seem to have enough feats to fully customize their character the way they want them to be. Instead, people have to take PrCs to get the full effect they want, for the most part. After playing a little bit of the L5R game (a d10 system), I found a mechanic that I'd like to explore for implimenting in D&D. The skill system in L5R (legend of the five rings, the game that started the Rokugan setting used in the 3rd edition OA book) has an interesting part of it that doesn't translate into D&D. In addition to gaining more ranks to have a better chance of achieving certain results with a skill, achieving certain ranks gives you new capabilities. D&D already uses a skill synergy system, and that's close to what I'm looking for. But rather than just skill synergy, I think it may be interesting to grant characters new uses of a skill for achieving certain ranks. Just to throw out some ideas: Balance: At some point, reduce the penalties taken for accelerated movement. Eventually add a (reasonable) DC to run across liquids or other surfaces that cannot support your weight (such as a branch), and eventually add a DC to remain still on such surfaces. Bluff: Possibly reduce the time it takes to make bluff checks to feint (replacing improved feint). Possibly reduce the bluff modifier for making rediculous lies. As you can see, many things can be came up with. Mainly, the two easiest things to do is reduce penalties associated with using a certain skill in certain ways (fast diplomacies, accelerated balance, climb, and tumble, jumping without a running start, ect.), or giving new uses (with appropriate, but achievable, DCs). Not sure how far this idea will go, but I think it would be an interesting ability to add depth to characters without rediculously powering them up.
IceFractal 10-04-05, 03:53 AM	Some of those abilities are already available as Epic uses of the skill (although they can be achievable pre-Epic by a skill-centric character). For example: Run across a branch: Balance, DC 40 Run across a liquid: Balance, DC 90 Detect magic just by looking: Appraise, DC 50 Turn someone from hostile to a fanatic follower: Diplomacy, DC 150 Pass through Wall of Force: Escape Artist, DC 120 Ignore falling damage: Tumble, DC 100 Animate rope: Use Rope, DC 80
weasel fierce 10-05-05, 12:41 AM	Isnt this already covered, by higher skills letting you perform tasks at higher DC's ? I'd rather see the feat and skill system combined into one, sane system, than add more rules to the skill system, IMO
FlameLover 10-05-05, 12:45 AM	Ilike the idea of getting new uses for skills with more ranks invested, but lowering DCs isn't a good idea. You're already putting the ranks in, so that's not the best way to do things. I think the new abiltities should be handed out at 8 ranks, 13 ranks, 18 ranks and 23 ranks. That means at the earlist you'd get a new ability at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20. Coming up with 4 abilities 4 each would be tough, but some of the current uses of abilities could be seperated. Like your example of Accelerated Climbing that "ability" should be gained at level 5 and maybe catching yourself while falling should be gained at level 15. Level 20 should give you a nigh-epic use of the skill like running on water for a round with a succesful balance check (you'd atuomatically fall after that though). But yeah, i love the idea and i'm making a note of it for further development. Isnt this already covered, by higher skills letting you perform tasks at higher DC's ? I agree but the concept of getting almost mini-feats is good though, atleast IMO. I'd rather see the feat and skill system combined into one, sane system, than add more rules to the skill system, IMO Lovely idea, how do you propose doing such though? Anyway i think their are quite a few feats that shouldn't actually be "feats". Like alot of the mounted feats should just be extra abilities gained from putting ranks into ride, for example. But if you have an idea how to combine the systems though i'd love to hear it since i'm making my own RPG currently and i'd like to integrate the system somehow.
RaspK FOG 10-05-05, 06:29 AM	The concept is already worked out in the rules; apart from the various things you can accomplish albeit at a penalty (-XX on skill check, etc.), there also are the various 5 rank benefits added to some skills, like Tumble's bonus when fighting defensively, ability to read lips (Spot) and distinguish North (Survival).
FlameLover 10-05-05, 05:52 PM	Yes but they should be expanded so you get more and more uses for skills as you level up. If i put 23 ranks into a skill i should have some unique options, not just the ability to do what i could 5 levels ago with magic items!
Xeviat-DM 10-05-05, 06:10 PM	I know that a number of the abilities I tossed out as ideas (mainly the Balance skill ones) are already handled in the epic rules, but I feel that so few people play epic games, yet still might want something like that (I know my group does at times). I didn't mean to suggest that DCs should be lowered, only that certain penalties could be lowered as a possible bonus. And yes, there are already a few (spot's, survival's, and tumble's), and there are synergies, but I think that the skill system has room for something like this. BESM has a skill = feat system, sort of. I don't have the book, I've only browsed the SRD, so I don't know how it works exactly. L5R has an almost entirely skill based system, but I don't think I'd want to introduce that into D&D just yet (maybe for 4th). If I get any more ideas on my own, I'll throw them out. Please contribute any of your own, because reading other's ideas often brings about more from other people.
FlameLover 10-05-05, 07:37 PM	I'm going to give examples for each skill of special abilities you might gain from extra ranks in the skill. Appraise The ability to lower error margine (so to lessen the 50% + or - from a failed check) plus the ability to determine magical power like the Epic usage would be good. I think a DC30 check would be enough for determining if it's magical or not while a DC50 check would be required to work out it's exact powers (with ofcourse some varying degrees inbetween that). Balance With a few ranks you'd get the "not flat-footed while balancing" thing and at high levels you should be given some epic uses like walking on fragile branches and running on water for a round. Bluff Secret messages, diversions and suggestion abilities would all work, as well as lowering the DC for making a hasty bluff. Also combine the Improved Feint feat into the skill. Climb Lower DC modifiers, speed up climbing, catching self while falling... all good stuff. Add in the Epic ability to climb at normal movement speed and you're cracking :) Concentration Lower DC modifiers and come up with some more uses like a "meditation" thing ot something. This one is tricky but you should be able throw in enough stuff. Craft Just allow higher levels of masterworks and reduce crafting times, etc. Decipher Script Lower times, add in epic usage. This skill is sorta weak in standard D&D but with a more comprehensive language system could become very valuable. Diplomacy Faster diplomacy times, some extra uses like maybe haggling and the epic usage in some form. Disable Device Decrease time, allow it to effect more magic and that sorta stuff. I like the idea of a +1d6 damage against constructs or something myself. Disguise I think this should be rolled into either the Forgery and/or Bluff skills but if i had to keep it seperate i would just decrease time and lessen the modifiers for disguising as a non-standard subject, etc. Also throw in Epic usages. Escape Artist Faster, more uses and Epic stuff. I'd fold this into an Acrobatics skill myself though. Forgery Faster times, lower DC modifiers and Epic usage. Shouldn't be a skill in it's own right me thinks though. Ok already getting tired of this but you get the idea. Just make things faster, more reliable and give some extra uses. For things like Ride you can give some feats for free though like Mounted Combat or Trample, etc.
Tenzhi 10-06-05, 03:42 AM	I'd rather see the feat and skill system combined into one, sane system, than add more rules to the skill system, IMO Agreed. Once you consider that combat is a skill, it's easy to foresee perhaps eliminating the intrinsic tie of feats to character level, and instead have feats gained via skill ranks (and most feats would be tied to specific skills as well). Of course, once you go that far, it's just as easy to see tying skill ranks to level and thereby simplifying the entire process if simplicity rather than micromanagement is more up your alley.
weasel fierce 10-06-05, 03:46 AM	Or even simply have feats have a certain cost in skill points. But then, we're almost playing GURPS instead (not that 3.x D&D doesnt try to be GURPS, but it might be a transition some players wouldnt want)
Tenzhi 10-06-05, 04:16 AM	Or even simply have feats have a certain cost in skill points. But then, we're almost playing GURPS instead (not that 3.x D&D doesnt try to be GURPS, but it might be a transition some players wouldnt want) Personally, I would lean towards the simplified rules I mentioned and away from the GURPiness. But that's because I don't like an overabundance of micromanagement. Some people do (and even more shockingly, some people like GURPS as well :P ).
Gilean 10-06-05, 12:38 PM	For the OP, change skill focus to only grant a +2 bonus, and give access to these special abilities. An extra devotion to the skill.
RaspK FOG 10-06-05, 03:51 PM	I'm going to give examples for each skill of special abilities you might gain from extra ranks in the skill.Most of the things you mention can be found as actions you can perform at a penalty on your check in Complete Adventurer, and that's partly what I meant earlier. ;)
Tenzhi 10-07-05, 12:35 AM	The reason I'd prefer such actions to be feats rather than skill checks, is because I feel that most of them should be able to be automatically performed by a PC with the appropriae skill. Indeed, many of the so-called "Epic" uses of skills (and some of the Epic feats, for that matter) don't seem particularly "Epic" to me. Walking on water, for instance, is something I'd expect from a 10-15th level monk or rogue. Detecting magic should come naturally to a simlarly-levelled magic-user.
Xeviat-DM 10-17-05, 04:59 PM	The reason I'd prefer such actions to be feats rather than skill checks, is because I feel that most of them should be able to be automatically performed by a PC with the appropriae skill. Indeed, many of the so-called "Epic" uses of skills (and some of the Epic feats, for that matter) don't seem particularly "Epic" to me. Walking on water, for instance, is something I'd expect from a 10-15th level monk or rogue. Detecting magic should come naturally to a simlarly-levelled magic-user. I, on the other hand, think that certain things should be attainable at earlier levels, but with chances of failure. Sure, a 20th level monk should be able to stand or walk on water just fine, but a 10th level monk would have to try (the difference between the 20th level monk succeeding on a skill check of 1 vs the 10th level monk only succeeding on a skill check of 11). Likewise, for the 20th level monk, running on water (balance check -10 for running) would have a chance of failure, depending on the DCs. I don't have stable internet connection anymore, but I'll try to post some more thoughts on Thursday.