Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DrKultra 05-08-04, 11:29 AM	I was thinking, why not change the DC calculation for spell from 10 + Relevant Mod + Spell Level, which renders most low level spells usless by the time they go to high levels, (this specialy hurts the Sorc who cant change his spells) to 10 + 1/2 Caster Level + Relevant Mod This would ensure that all spells a caster knows could be useful in a certain situation. What do you say?
DarkTouch 05-08-04, 10:13 PM	You'd just have to make sure you removed Heighten Spell as a feat is all.
Veton 05-08-04, 10:33 PM	You might also want to increase save DCs, otherwise it'll be very hard to make saves at higher levels.
Lina_Inverse 05-09-04, 06:42 AM	save or dies.save or dies.save or dies.youve strenghened save or dies,in addition this has been brought up 4 times simply by my viewing.
DrKultra 05-10-04, 01:00 PM	How would I go about strengthening the saves? --------- I suppose this DOES make Save or Dies stronger, but...hmmmm, What if I change them just to a real lot of damage in case of a failed save?
God of Slivers 05-10-04, 09:53 PM	I've used this rule for a while now. I do not find the saves to be too high to make. In fact if you play epic this is a must have rule to prevent your caster from becoming useless.
Dawnspeaker 05-11-04, 11:38 AM	Hmm..this actually isn't bad. I was getting tired of 17th level PCs with +30 Fortitude saves making everything tossed at them by equal to 5 level higher casters. This may even things out, will have to give it a try.
Lina_Inverse 05-11-04, 12:35 PM	Originally posted by DrKultra How would I go about strengthening the saves? --------- I suppose this DOES make Save or Dies stronger, but...hmmmm, What if I change them just to a real lot of damage in case of a failed save? i hate save or dies i house ruled them up the bit dominate is duration concentration as per the XPH.its still hold+uber summon,but now you cant nuke too. save or dies deal.Casterlvl+spelllvl*2 in d12s disentagrate goes back to save or die.this cant reduces someone below half current hp(nor can harm/heal there ment to heal things not be 150damege touch attacks) sleep and color spray are banned.
K.O.E.G 05-11-04, 10:03 PM	In My campaign, I have this as a feat. Spellstretcher General Prereq: Spellcasting attribute 18+, Spellcaster level 15+. Description: Your spell DCs are calculated as 10 + 1/3 Caster Level + Relevant Mod or 10 + Spell Level + Relevant Mod, whichever is higher.
StevenO 05-12-04, 02:09 PM	Yes, this would make all your lower level spells more useful, too useful in fact. It would also make a bard's spells far stronger because they gain class levels faster than they gain new spell levels. An example of why this is bad: Hold Person. At 4th level (the min. needed to cast) the system appears balanced: Save DC 12+mod. vs base save +1(low)/+4(high) +mods so characters need 11/8 to save. Now the same situation and characters at 20th level: Normal save DC 12+mod. vs base save +6(low)/+12(high) +mods so characters need 6/1* to save, they've learned to resist this old spell. Modified system save DC 20+mod. vs base save +6/+12 +mods so characters now need 14/8 to save. So nobody learned anything about resisting this spell and some are even worse at avoidding it? It seems strange that a higher level character would have more difficulty resisting the same spell hes been encountering for 16 levels. While epic casters should see an increase in DCs (to keep up with saves) this method would allow DCs to become impossibly high. This also allows full level casters (bard) that get spells slower to have the same spell DC as a dedicated caster.
ArchonXVI 05-12-04, 02:22 PM	Although I do see your point, you must agree that the spells do get more powerful with experience (fireball increasing damage, etc). It would therefore make sense that the DC for the spell would become more difficult as well, seeing as the caster is far better at manipulating the spell so that it is harder to resist. The DC of the spell should therefore have some sort of correlation to the experience of the caster. While I do agree, hold person would have a higher chance of success, if you are at 20th level why not just cast finger of death or wail of the banshee? You seem to be fixated on the fact that the lower power spells that are more or less save or die become stronger. The higher level spells have far more debilitating effects, and even if they have even saves, eclipse the capabilities of the lower level spells.
Riznar 05-12-04, 02:40 PM	The reason this is bad is that now that 20th level caster has Hold Person as a viable save or die in addition to Wail of the Banshee. And why would you use a high level save or die spell that only affects one target, if you can just use hold person? Or better yet, use that higher level slot for a quickened hold person.
StevenO 05-12-04, 07:18 PM	To Archon and others, I can concede that spells get more powerful as caster level increases but increasing the save DCs increases power even more. Fireball for example starts at 5d6 damage with an about even chance to save for half, at 10th level that becomes 10d6 but the opponent has a better chance to save for half which leaves net damage about the same (or better) than you'd at 5th level. My point is that the while the spell power increased (damage potential) the ability to save increases and thus the spell's power remains constant. As to the question of why use hold person instead of FoD or WotB, Riznar explained that one: You don't need all that power when a low level spell works. Normally the DCs for FoD and WotB are much higher than hold and will work far better but at the same DC (10+ 1/2level) the hold become alot more efficient by saving 5 to 7 spell levels. Even if the higher level spells have more debilitating effect you can cast fewer and they should be harder to overcome. Some higher level spells do nothing more when compared to lower level spell. Cone of Cold does the same damage as fireball (althought with a higher damage cap which sometimes is ingnored) but is two levels higher and gains nothing for it if the DCs are the same(variable area of effect doesn't cut it.) The reason to keep the DCs as they normallt are is to prevent the save or die spells from becoming all of a casters collection. Many lower level spell can effectively be used at higher levels without having the DCs increased. True strike, Cat's Grace and a host of other low level spells don't rely on DCs to be effective. As to a sorcerer losing his spell's usefulness at high levels I say plan ahead, take more utility and non-save spells as they become available, and remember that in 3.5 you can swap out an occasional spell. Finally, remember that changing the DCs to reflect caster level affects the character class with minor spell casting abilities even more dramatically than the full casters.
bitnine 05-13-04, 06:38 PM	Hm. This certainly makes throwing out quickened charm persons a little bit more appealing. Heck, turns all a lot of those depreciating low level save negates spells into things worth having. That's got to be handy - you won't be running out of effective spells nearly as easily.