Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Obi-Wan Shinobi 05-02-07, 05:18 PM	Weapon Points Each class gains a certain amount of weapon points to spend every level to increase the number of weapons they are proficient in or to increase the abilities of weapons they already know how to use. This works in a manner similar to skill points; each character has a number of weapon ranks depending on how many points they put into them and the number of ranks determines the abilities the character gets when using such a weapon. The extra abilities that will be gained will be the same as feats, such as weapon focus; these feats will be gained as a certain number of ranks are spent on each specific weapon. Weapons Proficiency Summary Getting weapon proficiencies: a character gets a base allotment of 2, 4, 6 or 8 weapons points for each new level, depending on the class to which was added at that level. Add the characters STR stat modifier to the number of melee weapons points they gain per level and add their DEX stat modifier to the number of ranged weapons points they gain per level. If the character is gaining their first class level overall, these numbers are multiplied by four. For example, a 1st level fighter will gain 32 weapons points to spend as they wish, plus their STR modifier x4 to spend only on melee weapons and their DEX modifier x4 to spend only on ranged weapons. Weapons points are NOT modified by race, such as the humans’ racial ability to gain extra skill points per level; instead, races will treat racial weapons as specific weapon classes (as detailed in PHB or in racial description). A character always gets at least 4 melee and 4 ranged weapon points at first level and 1 melee and 1 ranged weapon point per additional level, even if they have a STR or DEX penalty. If the characters STR or DEX modifiers change, such as from age, spells/magic items, poison, disease, etc, the amount of weapon points does not change unless the change is permanent. Also, if your STR or DEX modifiers are increased/reduced, you do not retroactively gain/lose weapon points from previous class levels. If you spend your weapons points on class weapons, your character gains 1 rank for each point spent. For each weapons point spent on weapons that are not class weapons, you gain a ˝ rank. Your maximum number of weapon ranks is equal to your character level +3; non-class weapons maximum number of ranks is one-half of this number (do not round up or down). Once a weapon is considered a class weapon, it is always considered a class weapon. Weapons points may not be saved for use at later levels nor may they be used for the other type of weapon; melee weapon points may be used only for melee weapon ranks and ranged weapons points for ranged weapons ranks only. Table 1: Weapons Points Per Level Barbarian 6+ Str mod+ Dex mod simple, martial Bard 4+ Str mod+ Dex mod special Cleric 2+ Str mod+ Dex mod simple, special Druid 2+ Str mod+ Dex mod special Fighter 8+Str mod+ Dex mod all Monk 4+ Str mod+ Dex mod special Paladin 6+ Str mod+ Dex mod simple, martial Ranger 6+Str mod+ Dex mod simple, martial Rogue 4+Str mod+ Dex mod simple, special Sorcerer 2+Str mod+ Dex mod simple Wizard 2+Str mod+ Dex mod special Exceptions: Bard: bards treat the longsword, rapier, sap, shortbow and whip as class weapons. Cleric: if the cleric has taken the War domain, they treat their deities favored weapon as if they have 4 ranks in the weapon (gaining proficiency and weapon focus). Druid: druids treat the club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, short spear, sling and spear as class weapons. They also treat any natural attacks from any form they assume in wild shape as class weapons. They cannot, however, spend weapons points on ranks of natural weapons until they are able to assume their forms (starting at 5th level). Fighter: the fighter treats all weapons, even exotic, as class weapons. Monk: monks treat clubs, crossbows (light and heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, slings and unarmed strikes as class weapons. Rogue: rogues treat hand crossbows, rapiers, shortbows and short swords as class weapons. Wizard: the wizard treats clubs, daggers, crossbows (light and heavy) and quarterstaves as class weapons. Use the above exceptions to determine a class weapon for classes not in the PHB, such as PrC’s and base classes from other sourcebooks. Weapon-like abilities, such as ranged touch attacks or ranged spells are always treated as exotic weapons. Acquiring Weapons Ranks Weapons ranks indicate how much training your character has with a specific weapon. Each weapon has a number of ranks, ranging from 0 (you are non-proficient with said weapon and take all standard non-proficiency penalties) to a number equal to character level +3. If you have at least one rank with a weapon, you are considered proficient with it. If you only have a ˝ rank with a weapon, you are not considered proficient, but the non-proficiency penalty is reduced to -2 to hit (from -4 to hit). As you gain more ranks with a specific weapon, you gain added capabilities (virtual feats) to use with that weapon. Treat these capabilities as if you actually have the feat, but you do not need to meet the normal prerequisites for that feat. Table 2: Weapon Ranks Capabilities # of ranks added capability 0 Not Proficient- non-proficiency penalty to hit -4 ˝ Not Proficient. Reduce non-proficiency penalty to hit to -2 1 Proficient 4 Weapon Focus 8 Weapon Specialization 12 Greater Weapon Focus 16 Greater Weapon Specialization 18 Crushing Strike, Driving Attack or Slashing Furry (depending on weapon type). Ranged weapons may instead choose Penetrating Shot instead of Driving Attack. 22 Weapon Supremacy Exceptions: Only the Fighter or classes/PrC’s that specifically may choose or gain weapon specialization (such as Pious Templar) may gain the added capability for having 8 or more ranks in a weapon. All other classes are limited to weapon focus no matter the number of ranks they have with a specific weapon. Additional Rules/Changes With this system, some changes need to be made to the current rules to include the above abilities. Classes/ Prestige Classes: Any class that gives the character proficiency in simple or martial weapons instead adds those types to the characters class weapons list. If a prestige class requires proficiency in any specific weapon or specific class of weapons, such as Eldritch Knights’ requirement for all simple and martial weapons, they only need to have those weapon types on their class weapon list. Races: Change elf racial ability of weapon proficiencies: instead of gaining free ranks, the longsword, rapier, longbow and shortbow (including composite versions) are added to their class weapons list. The character must still spend weapons points to use these weapons proficiently. Feats: Crushing Strike: add to special: you gain 3 weapon ranks with the chosen weapon. This may not exceed the maximum number of weapon ranks allowed by character level. Driving Attack: add to special: you gain 3 weapon ranks with the chosen weapon. This may not exceed the maximum number of weapon ranks allowed by character level. Greater Weapon Focus: add to special: you gain 3 weapon ranks with the chosen weapon. This may not exceed the maximum number of weapon ranks allowed by character level. Greater Weapon Specialization: add to special: you gain 3 weapon ranks with the chosen weapon. This may not exceed the maximum number of weapon ranks allowed by character level. Martial Weapon Proficiency: change benefit to: add chosen weapon to class weapon list and gain 1 weapon rank in chosen weapon. Penetrating Shot: add to special: you gain 3 weapon ranks with the chosen weapon. This may not exceed the maximum number of weapon ranks allowed by character level. Simple Weapons Proficiency: change benefit to: add all simple weapons to class weapon list and gain 1 weapon rank in all simple weapons. Slashing Furry: add to special: you gain 3 weapon ranks with the chosen weapon. This may not exceed the maximum number of weapon ranks allowed by character level. Throw Anything: add to benefit: you may use your ranged weapon points to increase melee weapon ranks. Weapon Focus: add to special: you gain 3 weapon ranks with the chosen weapon. This may not exceed the maximum number of weapon ranks allowed by character level. Weapon Finesse: add to benefit: you may use your ranged weapon points on weapons that weapon finesse would apply to. Weapon Specialization: add to special: you gain 3 weapon ranks with the chosen weapon. This may not exceed the maximum number of weapon ranks allowed by character level. Weapon Supremacy: add to special: you gain 3 weapon ranks with the chosen weapon. This may not exceed the maximum number of weapon ranks allowed by character level. Spells/Magic Items: Any spells and magic items that give the ability to use weapons with which the character is not already proficient in instead add 1 weapon rank to all non-proficient weapons of the class/classes of weapon type the spell or magic item would have gained the character. For example, Tensor’s Transformation adds all simple and martial weapon proficiencies to the caster. Under these rules, this spell would instead add 1 weapon rank to all simple and martial weapons the caster is not already proficient with. If the spell or magic item somehow gives the character a feat, such as weapon focus, it instead gains the character enough weapon ranks for them to gain the feat. Monster Manual: Creatures from the monster manuals gain weapon points either by attack bonus type (as cleric, wizard or fighter- see page 290 MM) or as per class type for NPC’s or monsters with a class. Monsters without class levels add weapon classes as per their type, including any weapons mentioned in their stat block. For example, outsiders gain 8+ STR/DEX modifier weapons points per HD and may spend these points on simple and martial weapons ranks. For ease of use, it is recommended that the DM just spend only the weapon points needed to replicate the stat block of the creature; there is no real need to spend all the monsters weapon points if you only intend on them using 1 specific weapon. What this change accomplishes After years of playing the game and reading other peoples opinions of the game, I decided to make this addition to the game. Yeah, it adds a bit more complexity to the game for character creation/leveling, but it also adds a level of customization that I think the game lacks. With this system, you can create a character with the exact weapons you wish them to use and not have the useless or unused weapons clutter of weapons you will NEVER use. One complaint I have seen is: I have been a wizard for 19 levels. I have never used anything other than a dagger. But if I take 1 level of fighter (or barbarian, ranger or other class that offers it) I gain use of EVERY martial and simple weapon!!! With this system, when I take that one level of fighter, the best I can get is proficiency in a few weapons or weapon focus in one (unless I have an ungodly STR or DEX- not too likely as a wizard). A first level fighter, paladin, barbarian or any other class that starts with proficiency with all simple and martial weapons is considered to have been practicing with them for a while or use of similar weapons gives them these proficiencies. But what about a fighter that wishes to be a swashbuckler or gladiator?? They have most likely only learned how to use a few specific weapons proficiently. Why would they have use of every simple and martial weapon?? When has a barbarian had the time to practice and use a rapier?? He has probably only ever seen spears, shortbows, axes and other such weapons. There are 19 simple weapons (9 of which are ranged), 33 martial weapons (5 of which are ranged) and 19 exotic weapons (7 of which are ranged) in the PHB. This gives the martial classes 52 weapons with which they supposedly know how to use proficiently. In my system, a fighter could spend all his weapon points and almost get the same spread of weapon use or he could simulate the type of fighter he actually is and only know how to use a few specific weapons, but with more proficiency. Using the elite array, a fighter with a 15 STR and 14 DEX would have 48 weapons points to begin with- 8 of which would have to be spent only on melee weapons and 8 which must be spent on ranged weapons only. This would allow the fighter to be proficient in every martial weapon and nearly every simple weapon (or vice-versa) or they could specialize their character and have weapon focus in up to 12 weapons!!!! This also helps out with the fact that a fighter is pigeon-holed into specific builds. Normally, a fighter has to use his class ability of feats to choose the feats to do their job, be it damage dealer, battlefield control, etc. A fighter gets a large number of feats to do this with but it also makes it so that if they choose feats other than those that help their specialty, their specialty is reduced in effect. With my system, the fighter does not have to spend their precious class abilities of feats on things such as weapon focus, specialization or mastery with a limited amount of specific weapons. They can instead spend those feats on other things to make their character more well rounded or to get other feats that might fit better with their character concept. They instead get weapon focus, specialization and such practically for free, depending on how they use their weapon points. This makes them what they are supposed to be- the master of weapons and their use. Another example- It also helps for when they are specializing in the use of long swords and they find this really cool bastard sword with really neat abilities. Either they don’t use it to its fullest potential, they sell it to get money to make the long sword they want, or they can just spend some weapons points and buy ranks in bastard sword and use it to its potential. It allows the player to eventually round out their character without a lot of forced feat usage and such. If one wishes, using my system, the fighter can still spend their class ability feats on weapon specialization and such. It will allow them to get these feats one level earlier than with my system, but again it uses up their one class ability for said level. My system allows for them to master many more weapons and still keep their class ability of feats to spend on other things. Weapons and their use should not have to be paid for with precious feats. I would like for those that wish to, to tell me how my system is. Is it broken?? Any loop holes that need closed?? Anything that needs to be changed, tweaked or added?? I also plan on doing a similar system for armor proficiency and use. also- if anyone knows how to make the tables work correctly- let me know what to do and i will make em easier to read :)
FatMonkey13 05-02-07, 06:06 PM	Seems interesting. But it seems far too complex, I would have to look into simplifying it before I would use it as a DM. Reminds me of AD&D weapon proficiencies.
Obi-Wan Shinobi 05-03-07, 09:48 AM	so i take it no one likes it, it works fine as it is, or no one cares to respond??? beuler, beuler.............
Arcade 05-03-07, 09:52 AM	I think you're likely to find a few trends with this system: 1) dipping into fighter to gain the high rank abilities 2) the fighter learns about 10 or 11 weapons to pure mastery. Every other class learns all weapons to weapon focus status since there is no point in putting more ranks in those weapons. 3) Every class now gets weapon focus for free at 1st level in a ranged and melee weapon. The only other thing I'll mention is weapon groups. If a fighter has a long sword, short sword, and two-handed sword proficiency, you'd hope that learning bastard sword would be a little easier. Perhaps you need to incorporate synergy bonuses for this (5 ranks in 2 or 3 weapons in a weapon group gives a +2 bonus to all weapons with less than 4 ranks in the weapon group).
Obi-Wan Shinobi 05-03-07, 02:47 PM	thats what im lookin fer- thanx man...... 1) they can dip fighter if they wish- it still wont get them anything over weapon focus as you still need to meet the prereqs for wep spec and higher abilities. atleast thats what i wanted to begin with- i just didnt state it too well in this part.. Only the Fighter or classes/PrC’s that specifically may choose or gain weapon specialization (such as Pious Templar) may gain the added capability for having 8 or more ranks in a weapon. All other classes are limited to weapon focus no matter the number of ranks they have with a specific weapon. 2)yup- thats another thing i wanted- it ups the power of the fighter by making him the actual master of weapons not just so-so with em. 3) but i see your point here. any ideas??? maybe just make it so that weapon focus requires 5 or more ranks?? i was thinking about trying to do weapon synergies but i figured that as many weapons that the melee classes can use, it seemed to help them the least. also, i couldnt think of anything other than making it a lower powered form of melee/ranged weapon mastery. any other ideas?suggestions?? or is this idea just too hard to implement and i should scrap it? i dont care if it is too complex- i prefer the game to have a bit more complexity- its harder to break it and offers more customization. i was just throing an idea i had been working on for a month or so out there for everyones perview.......
FatMonkey13 05-06-07, 03:20 PM	Keep working on it. A point based weapon proficiency system has its merits.
Arcade 05-07-07, 07:46 AM	Let's see, upon further reflection ... I don't see the need for splitting up ranged and melee weapons. Let the player figure out if he wants ranged or melee weapons. Most everyone will want at least one ranged and at least one melee weapon proficiency, so I don't think you need to worry about forcing them to choose between the two. If you want to add the ability mods in, take the average of str and dex or let the player choose which stat they want to use. You could also make it so bonus points have to be placed in melee or thrown weapons if they come from strength, and in ranged or weapon finesse weapons if they come from dexterity. I don't think I made my point clear about the fighter vs. other warriors issue. Let's take a fighter with a +3 strength bonus. He will likely have 11 weapons that he will master and be non-proficienct in all other weapons. Now take the paladin. He will instead have weapon focus in every single weapon known to man. A paladin and fighter at similar strength will see the paladin's list of weapon focus weapons outstrip the fighter's list by level 4. By level 10, a fighter will have specialization and greater weapon focus with 11 weapons (given a +3 strength bonus). That same paladin will have weapon focus with 29 different weapons. Improved critical isn't on the list. Adding it could give the non-fighters a reason to put large amounts of weapons ranks into a single weapon and prevent the diversity issue. With your system you are delaying all the weapon specializations and weapon focus abilities by one level. A 4th level fighter can have a max rank of 7, so he won't get weapon specialization until 5th level. I've been keeping track of the consolidated skill list variant threads, and in some ways, I think this system could benefit. After all, if the fighter is always going to focus on the same weapons throughout his career, there's no reason to deal with a per level skill point system. Just have the fighter pick out his list of weapons that he specializes in and automatically give him weapon focus, weapon specialization, and other weapon related feats as he gain the appropriate level. This will be, in effect, what your system will do for the fighters. One final note is that this could be expanded beyond just weapons and can go into weapon style. For instance, you could have a two weapon fighting style and by putting ranks into this, you gain the two weapon fighting feats (improved, greater, two weapon defense, etc.)
RobbyPants 05-07-07, 11:15 AM	I agree with most of the points that Arcade made. This does remind me of the 2E system, particularly the Combat & Tactics Player's Option rules. To prevent fighter level dipping, perhaps allow a maximum number of points to be spent on a weapon limited by your fighter level. All-in-all, I think it's too complex for my taste, but that doesn't mean it's a bad system.
Obi-Wan Shinobi 05-07-07, 02:12 PM	thanx all...... I don't think I made my point clear about the fighter vs. other warriors issue. Let's take a fighter with a +3 strength bonus. He will likely have 11 weapons that he will master and be non-proficienct in all other weapons. Now take the paladin. He will instead have weapon focus in every single weapon known to man. A paladin and fighter at similar strength will see the paladin's list of weapon focus weapons outstrip the fighter's list by level 4. By level 10, a fighter will have specialization and greater weapon focus with 11 weapons (given a +3 strength bonus). That same paladin will have weapon focus with 29 different weapons. thats what i am looking for personally- the fighter SHOULD be able to MASTER more than a few weapons. with this sytem- they could master 10+ weapons (depending on stats). and as for a paladin having weapon focus in most every weeapon- sure he can have that. so he has a +1 to hit with most every weapon he picks up. he wont ever be as good as a fighter with those weapons tho. thats why he has spells and other class abilities- he is NOT the fighter. when i first created the weapon point system, i wanted to be able to figure a way to add in the other ways of fighting but i figured this way is saving the fighter a BUNCH of feats that to need to spend a few on 2-wep fighting and such wasnt a bad trade off. i originally tried to add in the weapon style feats (using some sort of weapon synergy) but it got to be a very large document and people are saying it already is too unwieldy and complex :) With your system you are delaying all the weapon specializations and weapon focus abilities by one level. A 4th level fighter can have a max rank of 7, so he won't get weapon specialization until 5th level. i realize that- it was on purpose. D&D usually does it that way already. when they give something for free (or practically for free) such as class abiliities, it usually is given a level or 2 later than if one were able to choose it with a feat. this way, if they wish to get it quicker, they can spend one of their precious few feats for the ability or hold off for a level and get it by spending some points. that is what i wanted to get to- they can get it pretty much as a class ability or they can spend a feat for the same ability. choices :) Improved critical isn't on the list. Adding it could give the non-fighters a reason to put large amounts of weapons ranks into a single weapon and prevent the diversity issue. didnt want it on the list- mostly due to the fact that i dont WANT the other classes getting it for free. going back to the above example, adding this to the list would give the paladin weapon focus and imprived crit with 20-odd weapons- a bit more power than i want them to have for "free". if they want improved crit and such- they spend a feat on it- classes other than fighter should need to spend their feats to "specialize" with weapons- they have other class abilities to do their intended class role- fighters dont. one thing a system like this does is gives players more choices and also powers up the fighter- giving them a definite niche. supposedly the PHBII feats were a good help in powering up the fighter- only problem is they still have to spend their class abilities (feats) for them. this system- they become what they are supposed to be- the DEFINITE master of weapons. but again- thanx to those that have replied- keep it coming. still not sure if this system actually has any merit or just needs to be scrapped. i dont care about complexity- im personally all for making the game more complex- complexity usually means CHOICES. i hope 4th edition does what 2nd did for Advanced D&D- take the base rules for Advanced D&D and add more rules and choices. make 4th edition the new Advanced 3.5 D&D :)