Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anthor Del Niera 05-01-04, 03:55 PM	Okies; I am doing a rewrite of the wound points/ vitality points system, and decided it would be wise to post it here and see what the sages had to say. Let me know what you think. WOUND / VITALITY POINT SYSTEM Vitality Points “Vitality points are a measure of a character’s ability to turn a direct hit into a graze or a glancing blow with no serious consequences.” (Unearthed Arcana) Judging from the entry in Unearthed Arcana, and the apparent intent of the vitality point system, it is actually less logical to use CON as the determining score than it is to use DEX. However, the option to use CON still exists, primarily for game balance issues. As CON still determined wound points, and is the only thing that does so, this is not unbalancing. As DEX increases, your ability to turn direct hits into grazes increases and therefore the amount of normal direct hits you can take increases. Vitality points in almost all ways are the same as current hit points. They advance with character level, and the vitality die for each class is the same as the hit point die. The differences include the ability to choose Constitution or Dexterity at character creation for the modifier that adds to the class-determined vitality point die. Vitality points are lost first when taking damage, with the exceptions that follow. Wound Points A character has a number of wound points equal to his current Constitution. Critical Hits Critical threat ranges are reduced to a natural 20 only. All critical hits deal normal damage to vitality points plus additional damage that automatically bypasses damage reduction and deals damage directly to wound points. Critical hits deal wound damage equal to: the base weapon damage (not increased by magic) + 1 per point of base weapon’s former threat range beyond 20 + 1 per 2 points of base enhancement bonus to the weapon (rounded down) + 1 per Keen point + 1 for the feat Improved Critical with the weapon + 1 per additional former multiplier over x2 New Definitions Fortification: Fortification provides DR for wound points. Each +1 provides 1/- wound point DR. Suits of armor with this type of bonus giving a +6 or more to wound DR are almost impossibly rare. Market Price: +1 per one point of wound point DR, up to +5. After that, this bonus is epic. Keen/Impact/Precision: These flags allow one to deal additional wound point damage on a successful critical. Each +1 of weapon enhancement adds 1 point of wound damage. This counts only for the weapon enhancement put into the relevant flag. Ex. An Impact 2 Club +1 (total enhancement bonus of +3) would deal 1d6 +2 wound damage on a successful critical. (1d6 base damage + 2 from the two points put into the Impact flag) Weapons with this type of bonus giving a +5 or more to wound damage are called Vorpal and are exceedingly rare. Market Price: +1 per one point of bonus wound damage Healing For healing spells, you decide at the time of casting whether the spell will heal wound or vitality point damage. Cure Light Wounds restores 1 wound point per caster level (max 5) or 1d8+ 1 per caster level (max 5) vitality points. Cure Moderate Wounds restores 1 wound point per caster level (max 10) or 2d8 +1 per caster level (max 10) vitality points. Cure Serious Wounds restores 1 wound point per caster level (max 15) or 3d8 +1 per caster level (max 15) vitality points. Cure Critical Wounds restores 1 wound point per caster level (max 20) or 4d8 +1 per caster level (max 20) vitality points. Heal restores 1 wound point per caster level or up to 150 vitality points. Mass Heal restores all wound points or up to 250 vitality points. Other than these changes, the spells function as according to the PHB. Spells Inflict spells do the opposite of their healing counterparts with the changes noted above, with the exception of the following spells. Otherwise, these spells function as normal according to the PHB. (This includes the Will save for half and the requirement of a touch attack.) Mass Inflict spells do not exist. Harm deals 200 vitality point damage. “Save or die” spells deal 1 wound point damage per caster level on a failed save. On a successful save, most do nothing while some deal 5d6 vitality damage. (The latter are the ones in the PHB which do 5d6 damage on a successful save, like disintegrate.) Death Ward Cleric 6, Druid 6, Sorc/Wiz 7 Provides a +1 bonus per caster level on saves versus death effects for one minute per level. Energy Immunity, Negative Cleric 6, Druid 6, Sorc/Wiz 7 Grants negative energy resistance 250. Vampire’s Kiss Cleric 5, Druid 5, Sorc/Wiz 6 Level drain resistance 1 per 3 caster levels. Kiss of the Vampire Lord Cleric 8, Druid 8, Sorc/Wiz 9 Level drain resistance 1 per caster level. Sneak Attacks Sneak attacks deal 1 point of wound damage per 3 levels of rogue, beginning at level 1. These points take the places of the sneak attack’s d6’s. Sneak attacks also deal normal attack damage to vitality points. Class-Based Death Attacks These attacks include those like the Assassin’s death attack and the Arcane Archer’s arrow of death. If these attacks hit and the opponent fails his save, they deal 2 points of wound damage per level of the class granting the special attack. On a successful save, they deal the same amount of vitality point damage. There we go. Enjoy! J
Anthor Del Niera 05-09-04, 01:04 AM	:bump:
Lina_Inverse 05-09-04, 06:40 AM	you realize,if con dosent add to vitality.it becomes the literal worst stat in the game? dex being pretty much the best/second,needs no more boosting. as for the rest of the stuff,it looks not only too complex but poorly balenced and thought through. dont you remember how they pointed out that +1ac > +1DR.and +1 limited DR?
hiryuu 05-09-04, 10:47 AM	Con makes perfect sense. It's your ability to weather the hit, even if it doesn't hit you - it's about both turning your body away and your ability to take it. Sure, you may have blocked the incoming blow with your sword, but now you're a little more tired. Vitality isn't dodging, though that's part of it - you're running out of steam from all that moving around.
Anthor Del Niera 05-17-04, 06:50 AM	Perhaps it is valid for CON to be there, but I disagree that it would make it the "worst stat." There is an option for con to be added to it, it's just not the only thing that is possible. Consider, Hiryuu, that most fights do not last for minutes. They are over within a few rounds, a minute is normally the largest amount possible. As a martial artist, I've found that moving just a bit to turn the hit into a glance, obviously (to me) a dexterity thing, also forces one to perform less work. As a side note, I am considering allowing players to use constitution as an armor bonus in place of dexterity, their choice. That makes more sense to me, as they are using their toughness to simply shrug the blow off, or accept the glance and ignore it entirely. Also, Lina, I disagree with your statement that +1 AC > +1 DR/ limited DR. It's easier to get AC, cheaper to get AC, and all in all less useful. I am shooting for comments on balance and thinking, not just that it isn't good. I'd like to hear why. I've playtested a bit, and it doesn't change all that much, just makes things a bit more realistic. Seems to do what hit points are trying to do, only better. Still, if someone can spot a loophole or notice something like that, please so. I always appreciate it. Edit: Lina, your statement seems to indicate that you think con cannot add to vitality. It can. It's a choice.
Lina_Inverse 05-17-04, 09:55 AM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Perhaps it is valid for CON to be there, but I disagree that it would make it the "worst stat." There is an option for con to be added to it, it's just not the only thing that is possible. Consider, Hiryuu, that most fights do not last for minutes. They are over within a few rounds, a minute is normally the largest amount possible. As a martial artist, I've found that moving just a bit to turn the hit into a glance, obviously (to me) a dexterity thing, also forces one to perform less work. As a side note, I am considering allowing players to use constitution as an armor bonus in place of dexterity, their choice. That makes more sense to me, as they are using their toughness to simply shrug the blow off, or accept the glance and ignore it entirely. Also, Lina, I disagree with your statement that +1 AC > +1 DR/ limited DR. It's easier to get AC, cheaper to get AC, and all in all less useful. I am shooting for comments on balance and thinking, not just that it isn't good. I'd like to hear why. I've playtested a bit, and it doesn't change all that much, just makes things a bit more realistic. Seems to do what hit points are trying to do, only better. Still, if someone can spot a loophole or notice something like that, please so. I always appreciate it. Edit: Lina, your statement seems to indicate that you think con cannot add to vitality. It can. It's a choice. armor as DR,check the sidebar.also note the system considers +1 to hit to be equal to +2damege.or if your really nutty,do the math. con does 2 things in D&D,add hp and and fort saves.dex is pretty much the games best stat helping every charecter in multible ways.
Anthor Del Niera 05-17-04, 12:44 PM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse armor as DR,check the sidebar.also note the system considers +1 to hit to be equal to +2damege.or if your really nutty,do the math. con does 2 things in D&D,add hp and and fort saves.dex is pretty much the games best stat helping every charecter in multible ways. I'm not using the armor as DR thing. I don't really like it that much, and it doesn't fit with what I've got so far. I can be swayed, I just don't see it helping. Con also adds to a number of skills; it should be noted that I have also instituted an epic fighting technique system, similar to the epic spell system, with Concentration as the prime requisite. The +1 to hit, +2 to damage works quite well with normal hit points. But with this, there is a distinct difference; as the only way to achieve DR for your wound points is through fortification, it is quite worth a +1. With average PC wealth, a typical individual can survive somewhere between 2 and 3 critical hits, which is as it should be, in my opinion.
Lina_Inverse 05-17-04, 12:51 PM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera I'm not using the armor as DR thing. I don't really like it that much, and it doesn't fit with what I've got so far. I can be swayed, I just don't see it helping. Con also adds to a number of skills; it should be noted that I have also instituted an epic fighting technique system, similar to the epic spell system, with Concentration as the prime requisite. The +1 to hit, +2 to damage works quite well with normal hit points. But with this, there is a distinct difference; as the only way to achieve DR for your wound points is through fortification, it is quite worth a +1. With average PC wealth, a typical individual can survive somewhere between 2 and 3 critical hits, which is as it should be, in my opinion. nono,look under the sidebar next to armor as DR.it really is weaker.and in this case fortifacation is strictly weaker than normal,which would you have immunity to crits or DR5/- on crits only?hell id rather have +5 ac because a crit is instant death at high levels 5 hp wont save you when your takeing 60 and have 20. epic fighting wont work,no fighter type has concentration as a class skill or a use for it at low levels.and that is the ONLY skill that it affects,dex is the second best stat for skill useage after int.oh and dex adds to AC and to-hit rolls. etc. etc.
Reney 05-22-04, 06:11 AM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse no fighter type has concentration as a class skill Paladin. And the Ranger if he still counts.
Reney 05-22-04, 07:05 AM	I don't know too many parties with players who beat on each other for the right to be the party cleric, but I think the way you want to change the Healing spells make the class even less attractive. Personally, I love being a Cleric, but I'm not even going to get into how silly it would be to cast Heal to cure the resident fighter's 20 or so Wound points and leave his VP at 0. Healing is supposed to be what makes them special. Is the sole purpose of this section to nerf the Cleric class so that they have to take AT LEAST two seperate spells to heal a character who, at level 11, should be well within their ability to fix with a single spell? In that case, why even use this variant? It's all about getting the characters to bounce around like poodles on speed. The idea of using Dex to add to Vitality is a nice idea. I wouldn't use it though. If you use any non-standard races high Dex bonuses are much easier to come by than high Con bonuses. Dex already allows a character to avoid being hit because of the AC bonus. Even as an option it doesn't sound balanced. Ex) Using two 14's, Chainshirt, and your variants as I understand them. Dwarf Fighter1 Dex 14. Con 16. AC 16/VP 13/WP 16 Speed 20 ft. Elf Fighter1 Dex 16. Con 12. AC 17/VP 13/WP 12 Speed 30 ft. They have the same VP, but the Elf is 5% harder to hit. A critical hit would most likely drop either of them so you might as well go with the Elf. Now, if you use Con to add to your AC it might make it a little more balanced, but only between those two scores. Con and Dex will have duel purposes that almost negate the need for the other because you really only need a good score in one of them. It seems like you could just dump one of the scores entirely to make characters with 5 stats instead of 6. If nothing adds to Wound points (I'm assuming you're including Feats like Toughness?) at higher levels any critical hit is probably going to drop you. At least Toughness can normally be a decent Feat choice with this variant, but if nothing adds to Wounds but Con why bother with it? Adding +1 to Con every 4 levels won't help much so it probably won't happen. Might as well make it harder for them to confirm their criticals. The modifiers to critical damage are okay if you really, really want to do that much math whenever you make a Crit. Would that mean you could take Keen more than once since it's a Keen point? And what would you do with Burst weapons? What about Flaming and Holy dice? If it works for you and your party that's great, but the changes open up a lot of room for abuse.
zarozynia 06-09-04, 09:28 PM	As the game that I am currently running came directly after we had all played a Starwars game, we have been playing with a vit/wound system since shortly before Unearthed Arcana came out. That said, it is slightly different from the way the Wizard's wrote it, and I had a few things that I wanted to add. First off, you said that critical hits go directly to wound point damage bipassing DR. The way that the Starwars game plays it (and definately the way that it should be played) is that DR caused by armor or thick hides should only apply to wound point damage because that is the only time that you are taking a wound that is any way a danger to you. Vitality points are pretty much you getting small scrapes and bruises and narrowly avoiding major damage in a battle. It serves a similar purpose to subdual damage, the more vitality points that you loose, you become tired which is how you end up going into wound point damage because you cannot with stand an attack anymore, so to speak. Okay, I suppose that I only had one thing to add. ;)