Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reseru 08-06-05, 06:16 PM	I took a look at the Taint variant, and I really like it. I wanna know if anyone has taken alignment out of their campaign and how it works. And I'd like to know how taint has worked for people who used it. My only question is, how would certain classes work without alignment? Take a Monk for example, would they need to be tweaked since Lawful alignment isn't there? Thanks in advance:)
Lina_Inverse 08-06-05, 06:48 PM	look at paladins. look at the spell lists. look at monsters. look at magic items. the game requires an entire rewrite to remove alingment.
Reseru 08-06-05, 09:35 PM	Thanks for responding, but...You didn't really answer anything. I don't mean to be a jerk =\ I know it'd have to be a rewrite, and I asked if anyone has: "I wanna know if anyone has taken alignment out of their campaign and how it works." I was asking if anyone has done it, and how?
mrurbanitesmiley 08-06-05, 10:42 PM	D20 Modern uses a system of 'allegiances'. Basically, your character names 3 things that are important to him, like 'Country, Freedom, and Charity', listed in order of importance to him. Check it out. Modern SRD: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd Also, look at paladins. look at the spell lists. look at monsters. look at magic items. the game requires an entire rewrite to remove alingment. is entirely wrong. Paladins are my least favorite class, and, in my opinion, are just a useless archetype that has been grandfathered in from older version of D&D. Spell lists? Yeah. You have to cut out detect alignment spells, and magic circles/protection froms. OMGWTFBBQ. that's a drastic change. As for monsters, is a rakshasa any less evil just because he doesn't have an alignment entry? Nope. Rose by any other name, et al. Magic items? Oh Noes! You can't give them Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, or... um... I can't think of any others. Anyway, I think alignment is one of the most ignored and maligned elements of the current system. I usually don't pay it much attention. It's not detailed enough for a complex, roleplaying intense, dramatic, epic style campaign, and just annoying for a hack & slash dungeonfest. But, whatever.
Reseru 08-07-05, 12:28 AM	Thanks:) I'll check out the allegiance thing
Lina_Inverse 08-07-05, 02:09 AM	Also, is entirely wrong. Paladins are my least favorite class, and, in my opinion, are just a useless archetype that has been grandfathered in from older version of D&D. Spell lists? Yeah. You have to cut out detect alignment spells, and magic circles/protection froms. OMGWTFBBQ. that's a drastic change. As for monsters, is a rakshasa any less evil just because he doesn't have an alignment entry? Nope. Rose by any other name, et al. Magic items? Oh Noes! You can't give them Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, or... um... I can't think of any others. damage reduction /evil or /chaos.thats what i ment by monsters. holy weapons,a standby of mid level fighters(being everything requires it. smite spells,4 domains,a HUGE portion of the cleric list. magic circles are required by the rules to use a couple of other spells. oh and HOW CAN YOU HATE PALADINS?!?!?!paladins are great fun to play. Anyway, I think alignment is one of the most ignored and maligned elements of the current system. I usually don't pay it much attention. It's not detailed enough for a complex, roleplaying intense, dramatic, epic style campaign, and just annoying for a hack & slash dungeonfest. if it was more detailed people would call it a straight jacket.hell they do because they dont understand it. alingment is misunderstood nothing more nothing less.it is a tool for good roleplaying.and a tool to show just how diffrent a D&D world is from our own.in our world we cant use some basic technological device to say HES EVIL,but in a D&D world you can do the equivelent.think on what that means.
Vexsom 08-07-05, 07:58 AM	A few of the elements like action points, wealth, and the removal of alignment are all elements of D20 modern as a default. You simply have to replace your alignments with alligences, a paladin simply takes an alligence to Law and order. It doesn't require a rewrite, just amusing alligences. Also, I love action points. Anyway, taint is a nice varient, but I just can't manage to keep it a simple score in roleplaying terms, as I mentioned in a orevious topic about it.
Gilean 08-07-05, 08:31 AM	damage reduction /evil or /chaos.thats what i ment by monsters.Use materials. A bit of tweaking deals with this easily.holy weapons,a standby of mid level fighters(being everything requires it.Well, no.smite spells,4 domains,a HUGE portion of the cleric list. magic circles are required by the rules to use a couple of other spells.A tiny amount of spells and 4 domains aren't exactly life-threatening.
Ktulu 08-23-05, 02:39 AM	In an upcoming homebrew game, I am using taint instead of alignment. Here's how I'm dealing with it. Monks - Rarely used, if ever, in my game. Easily tossed out. Paladin - Changed Detect Evil to detect taint, smite evil to smite taint. Now, give them a code to follow. The Paladins in my world are all blood decendants from a great hero that long ago fought back the taint. They are immune to taint, and by way of remove disease, can cure it, to a lesser extent. Tossed Alignment spells. Since clerics in my world are mostly evil (following dark gods and demonic cults) I don't have to worry much about the good vs evil cleric. As for demons with Good/chaos descriptor DR, just ignore that one. If alignment doesn't exist, then their DR's for aligned weapons doesn't, either. It's your game, do with it as you wish. My players are psyched to try out a game where it's not important if your good or evil, but if your tainted or not. Ktulu
Paul Hopebringer 08-23-05, 09:27 AM	Just a second, Ktulu... :confused: paladins are immune to taint and can cure it... and taint comes from using evil items and spells... so paladines can use evil items to there little golden hearts content and can help the evil people keep on casting? That is sick and twisted! It sounds like a fun campain, and I'm not saying that there is a problem with it, but I just want to know if you see that those are potential points that could come up. (How would you deal with them???) If it comes from a bloodline... does that mean that you could be evil and still have the bloodline? An evildoer immune to taint sounds really sick! And he gets it from a good ancestor to... :evillaugh Ahh yes, the stuff of legends...
Verelor 08-23-05, 10:04 PM	Removing alignment is a change across the board and should never even be considered to be done. Any DM that kills alignment has no idea what they are doing, is making a change for no fun or discernable reason, and has essentially killed a part of the Dungeons & Dragons experience with it. The more I hear about adn read everything in Unearthed Arcana, the more I realise it is meandering slop written by howler monkies that disliked everything about the game but had no real idea why. If you hate paladins, you're either evil, stupid, or haven't seen a GREAT (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=158114) one.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-23-05, 10:22 PM	Come my friend, the Alignment Removal Project (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53207) awaits to help you with discussion, identification of problem areas -- all the things an evolving DM needs to dump the bloat from his game.
Verelor 08-24-05, 05:36 PM	*barf
Glak 08-24-05, 08:24 PM	Verelor, what is wrong with you? Why does the D&D game need to have the alignment system that it does? Unlike most people on these boards I believe that good and evil are very real things and that a good story usually centers around the conflict between good and evil. However what is the need for an alignment system? Can't a hero be good without having to write it down on his character sheet? Alignment reduces morality to a game mechanic, like weapon focus. Did you start playing D&D so that you could write down that your hero was good, or was it that you wanted to play a hero that was good? Do I really need a spell to detect evil, or would it be more fun to use my brain to figure out who the bad guys are?
Ktulu 08-25-05, 02:16 AM	Just a second, Ktulu... :confused: paladins are immune to taint and can cure it... and taint comes from using evil items and spells... so paladines can use evil items to there little golden hearts content and can help the evil people keep on casting? That is sick and twisted! It sounds like a fun campain, and I'm not saying that there is a problem with it, but I just want to know if you see that those are potential points that could come up. (How would you deal with them???) If it comes from a bloodline... does that mean that you could be evil and still have the bloodline? An evildoer immune to taint sounds really sick! And he gets it from a good ancestor to... :evillaugh Ahh yes, the stuff of legends... Very good points, indeed, Mr. Hopebringer. Most taint, in my world, comes frome tainted land. However, some does come from magic (in my world, ALL arcane magic is, at it's heart, tainted magic), and to a lesser extent, items. So, yes, in theory, a Paladin (or Decendant of Traemor) COULD use a tainted item. However, the stuff is anathema to them. From very young ages they could see tainted ones for what they truly were; cancerous, vile, blighted creatures. They've watched friend and foe alike fall to the sickness wracking the land. Because of this, they have a grim outlook on life. They work alone, they're usually unhappy and drunk when not on a quest, and they fear getting close to people because they've had to slay more than one close ally or loved one due to taint. Therefore, evil or good, they both have basically the same intent. Destroy tainted creatures and items and find a way to cure the land of the taint. If the goal is altruistic or for personal gain, that's up to the player. I have no mechanics in place that stop it, just that simple roleplaying aspect. My players aren't powergamers, so it's never been a big issue to have glaring loopholes like that. So far, out of 4 players, not one of them has even entertained the idea of playing a Paladin in this campaign. Only one player is left to choose, and he's most likely to play a ranger. Ktulu
Verelor 08-25-05, 06:33 PM	Isn't Taint a game mechanic too? Please understand, one thing that makes Dugneons & Dragons and other fantasy games so fun is that these depressingly compromised and debated moral values and ethical choices from real life are so clearly defined, so physical that they shape the cosmos, so real that they are not merely in hearts and minds but flow through the material of the universe. Removing them just seems like a step in the direction of the mundane, not to mention mechanically a change across the board (and how lame does the term Taint become if you are using it every 10 seconds?).
Paul Hopebringer 08-26-05, 07:51 AM	Verelor, you *do* have a point, and it is a very much valid... opinion?... fact of the game that alignment is deeply rooted into the core rules. And yes, having "taint" come up every ten seconds could very easily become very redundant. *BUT* there are other points of view out there. I am a sort of middle man, myself. I can easily see why the vast majority of DnDers wouldn't want to take alignment out (or at least, don't have enough motivation to do anything about it, I'm not sure I can speak for that many people...) But, I feel that having good and evil be so well defined has the same potential problem (as well as the same solution, for the most part) as having taint come up every ten seconds. Basically, he is replacing evil with taint, and making the moralistic system of the game he is running more... realistic/dramatic. Good people as often as evil people would have taint (*cough* right? *cough*) but the amount would vary. Instead of all the villians being "Evil" "Evil!" and "EVIL!!!", you would have a very flexible taint value, and evil good people could have it. Pure goodness=purity and innocence? My behind! How many heroes do you know of that are 1. really cool, 2. innocent, and 3. never seen real evil? This system allows for tainted good people, something I view as very cool/dramatic/realistic, and which the current alignment system wouldn't do justice. Neutral... makes me want to vomit... :schemes: :shifty: :angelhide Now, while playing a "Planescape" style campain is fun, fun, very fun, fun... with all of its "*ONE* evil person to many, time for this chunk of earth to fly to hell :eek: ", it isn't right for every game. If you feel that the game quites being dnd if you don't use their alighnment system... :confused: ... that is fine, I guess. But a creepy "Why are *you* doing this!!! We're friends! " sort of thing is a good flavor for a whole campain... don't knock it 'till you've tried it. *I* think it's great. ... um... taint would basically represent a more realistic style of evil (with magical side effects and all, but that enhances enough to make the fantasy aspect more involved...) Just about anybody could be tainted. Think of the achitypical "Good" guy, and apply taint. Behold! A more dramatic character has been born! *BUT* on the other hand, just because anybody *could* be tainted, it doesn't mean everybody *should* be tainted. If extremly minor taint was fairly spread out, then that might be alright, but even moderatly tainted characters should be fairly rare (i.e. not an every day thing) Really tainted characters should be quite rare indeed. Taint needn't necissarly go with alignment... so on an extreme level, there could be an extremly tainted lawful good guy... probably worn away by being tainted from all the evil he fought or something. The taint would probably affect his judgement, but that isn't neccisary. He could just be a good guy whose particularly bad off. He might be "villianized" by the locals, because his taint is associated with evil, etc. The potential depth of character goes on and on. ... but with the current system, he'd probably be considered...*yark* neutral...