No High Level Spells ... [Archive] - Wizards Community

No High Level Spells ... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Salla
01-27-08, 12:44 PM It's no secret that spellcasters outclass everybody else at high levels ... well, okay, mid levels, but high levels is where it gets truly ridiculous, with stuff like Gate and Miracle easily accessible to wizards and clerics.

I don't want to try to rebuild the entire magic system. Far too much work, for starters. But I had an idea ... what if spells of 7th to 9th levels (where they get truly ridiculous) simply didn't exist?

The spellcasters, if they stayed single-classed, would still get their spell slots, but would have to either prepare lower-levelled spells in them, or metamagicked spells. Psionics would operate similarly; no powers above 6th level, but they could be augmented to their full 20PP (if 20th level, of course).

I can't recall if there are 7-9 level Cure spells, but Clerics wouldn't be able to drop them spontaneously; similarly, the Druidic Summon Nature's Ally (if I don't houserule that out ... I hate summoning SO MUCH) would top off at 6th.

Any other rules oddnesses that this would create that you can think of and I haven't?
PrinceOfTheVoid
01-27-08, 01:02 PM Healing in combat and Ressurection mostly. Wizards have enough good lower level spells to get by, but when your fighter is -200 hp and needs healing, that might be a problem. Unless of course you want to add a sense of danger. As long as the enemy plays by the same rules. Maybe you could have some sort of epic prestige class like Master of Forbidden Arcana or something that could use 7,8,and 9th level slots.
james_gaines
01-27-08, 06:45 PM Might also make every single high level spell quested. You want Gate? You may only learn it by journeying to Hell and beating Asmodeus at Poker.
Tequila_Sunrise
01-27-08, 07:52 PM I would never ever play a caster in your game. Why? Because I like to blow things up, and I don't want my ability to do so to be penalized because of a few rediculous high level spells. If I play a cleric I want to heal, not just heal. I say just ban or alter the worst of the bunch; no more celerity, time stop, gate, teleports have increased casting times, etc...

TS
Salla
01-28-08, 12:21 AM Healing in combat and Ressurection mostly. Wizards have enough good lower level spells to get by, but when your fighter is -200 hp and needs healing, that might be a problem.

To be honest, I can't recall the last time anybody spent an action healing in the middle of a fight.

Unless of course you want to add a sense of danger. As long as the enemy plays by the same rules.

Naturally. :)

Maybe you could have some sort of epic prestige class like Master of Forbidden Arcana or something that could use 7,8,and 9th level slots.

I don't touch epic, so that really wouldn't become an issue.
kuonji
01-28-08, 07:32 AM Would this be that 7th to 9th level magics no longer exist in the world or that they never existed in the first place?

Some little things would be interesting, such as Clerics having the Heal spell but druids not having it. You might take a look at magic items and edit the list to remove items or change creation spell requirements for spells that are no longer available (rings of wizardry, manuals/tomes that provide inherent bonuses, etc.).

Do you remove spell like abilities from higher level creatures that duplicate these spells?

Scrolls containing 7th-9th level magic might make for fun treasures as well. The PCs could figure out how to use the scroll but cannot themselves duplicate the feats of magic.

And, one last question, do you feel casters would need any sort of compensation for removing these spells? Perhaps some bonus metamagic feats or some such.

Sounds like an interesting idea.
navar100
01-29-08, 03:33 AM You force a spellcaster to spend feats on metamagic, but they may not want to.

Does a cleric really win the game by casting Holy Aura? You tremble at Power Word Stun? Phantasmal Killer is not causing you problems at 7th level? You're ok with the druid casting Freedom of Movement when you have grappling trolls?

Individual spells may cause problems, not all. Spellcasters can always do stuff non-spellcasters can't. However, non-spellcasters are not wimps either. Spellcasters shouldn't be so punished.
ppirilla
01-29-08, 11:53 AM If your group tends to play through to level 20, this will get frustrating to spellcasters toward the end of the campaign, since they would have to multiclass just to gain aby new abilities at all after level 12 or so. If your campaigns never actually get to that high of a level, then this is no problem, but at the very least you should let the spellcasters multiclass freely if not some other ability to compensate.

how about

Your caster level increases by one for every class level you gain in a non-casting class.

All spellcasting classes gain this class feature at the second level in which they would gain 7th level spells (Wizard/Cleric 14, Sorcerer 15, etc)

That needs to be worded better, but I think you get the idea
unundindur
01-29-08, 01:25 PM You could take a look at the magician class in my signature if you want another take on spellcasters, that remove high level spells, in exchange for unlimited powers.
Eldritch_Lord
01-29-08, 01:54 PM It might work, if you made a few adjustments. Off the top of my head:

1) Make any spells cast from 7th/8th/9th slots automatically heightened for 7th/8th/9th save DCs.

2) Give clerics and sorceres free metamagic/item creation feats like the wizard has.

3) Implement a relatively minor "second wind" self-healing at higher levels (for coming back from negative HPs or avoiding damage past -10 HP only) to compensate for lack of resurrection and true resurrection, unless you are deliberately removing them from the game.

If I were in your position, I'd selectively nerf spells and boost non-casters rather than just cutting off spell progression at 13th level, but YMMV.
Xavon
01-31-08, 09:51 PM I'm a fan of this, but I add to it that a caster can 'learn' spells of level 7-9 for by spending a feat.
squidyak
02-01-08, 01:31 AM A better way to do this might be what I do in some of my campaigns. I make wizard a prestige class, with a requirement of knowledge (arcane) or 9 ranks. That way, simply getting to the wizard class takes effort and higher level spells are unavailable until 20th level or so.
Nathreet
02-10-08, 03:32 PM New spell level gained every 3 levels instead of every 2. So a 4th level wizard now casts as a 3rd level wizard, 7th casts as 5th, 10th casts as 7th, etc. You just need to fill in the gaps now. Screw the 7th-9th slots for metamagic; just don't have them at all. There, done.

Even at lower levels when the wizard is weak you'll still likely want at least 1 in the party to handle what others can't. Kinda like a rogue designed to play the skillmonkey.
thecasualoblivion
02-12-08, 10:49 PM An easy solution is just to make all spellcasting classes use the Bard progression. They do end up with fewer castings, and metamagic goes from required to almost entirely pointless, but its an existing system limiting casters to 6th level spells and it is indeed a caster nerf.
Legdiwena
02-14-08, 06:10 PM You would have to adjust psionics. Some of the powers equate to higher level spells when you augment it to 20th .
Eldritch_Lord
02-14-08, 07:19 PM You would have to adjust psionics. Some of the powers equate to higher level spells when you augment it to 20th .

Only a few; on the whole, it's like casting a fireball at CL 20 rather than augmenting up to a meteor swarm.
Dog_O_War
02-15-08, 10:48 AM Maybe keep the 7th level spells.

Offer a free metamagic (and metamagic feat only) at the levels that you would normally gain 8th and 9th level spells.

Maybe also give one extra spells, like.....
15th: +1 1st level spell/day
16th: +1 2nd level spell/day
17th: +1 3rd level spell/day
18th: +1 4th level spell/day
19th: +1 5th level spell/day
20th: +1 6th level spell/day

Give sorcerers an additional spell known (any level, up to one level lower than they can cast) at 16th and 18th as well.

This is what I suggest you do if you cut out higher level spells.

Another option would be to just end all campaigns by 14th level, dragging out the rate at which you gain levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Salla 01-27-08, 12:44 PM	It's no secret that spellcasters outclass everybody else at high levels ... well, okay, mid levels, but high levels is where it gets truly ridiculous, with stuff like Gate and Miracle easily accessible to wizards and clerics. I don't want to try to rebuild the entire magic system. Far too much work, for starters. But I had an idea ... what if spells of 7th to 9th levels (where they get truly ridiculous) simply didn't exist? The spellcasters, if they stayed single-classed, would still get their spell slots, but would have to either prepare lower-levelled spells in them, or metamagicked spells. Psionics would operate similarly; no powers above 6th level, but they could be augmented to their full 20PP (if 20th level, of course). I can't recall if there are 7-9 level Cure spells, but Clerics wouldn't be able to drop them spontaneously; similarly, the Druidic Summon Nature's Ally (if I don't houserule that out ... I hate summoning SO MUCH) would top off at 6th. Any other rules oddnesses that this would create that you can think of and I haven't?
PrinceOfTheVoid 01-27-08, 01:02 PM	Healing in combat and Ressurection mostly. Wizards have enough good lower level spells to get by, but when your fighter is -200 hp and needs healing, that might be a problem. Unless of course you want to add a sense of danger. As long as the enemy plays by the same rules. Maybe you could have some sort of epic prestige class like Master of Forbidden Arcana or something that could use 7,8,and 9th level slots.
james_gaines 01-27-08, 06:45 PM	Might also make every single high level spell quested. You want Gate? You may only learn it by journeying to Hell and beating Asmodeus at Poker.
Tequila_Sunrise 01-27-08, 07:52 PM	I would never ever play a caster in your game. Why? Because I like to blow things up, and I don't want my ability to do so to be penalized because of a few rediculous high level spells. If I play a cleric I want to heal, not just heal. I say just ban or alter the worst of the bunch; no more celerity, time stop, gate, teleports have increased casting times, etc... TS
Salla 01-28-08, 12:21 AM	Healing in combat and Ressurection mostly. Wizards have enough good lower level spells to get by, but when your fighter is -200 hp and needs healing, that might be a problem. To be honest, I can't recall the last time anybody spent an action healing in the middle of a fight. Unless of course you want to add a sense of danger. As long as the enemy plays by the same rules. Naturally. :) Maybe you could have some sort of epic prestige class like Master of Forbidden Arcana or something that could use 7,8,and 9th level slots. I don't touch epic, so that really wouldn't become an issue.
kuonji 01-28-08, 07:32 AM	Would this be that 7th to 9th level magics no longer exist in the world or that they never existed in the first place? Some little things would be interesting, such as Clerics having the Heal spell but druids not having it. You might take a look at magic items and edit the list to remove items or change creation spell requirements for spells that are no longer available (rings of wizardry, manuals/tomes that provide inherent bonuses, etc.). Do you remove spell like abilities from higher level creatures that duplicate these spells? Scrolls containing 7th-9th level magic might make for fun treasures as well. The PCs could figure out how to use the scroll but cannot themselves duplicate the feats of magic. And, one last question, do you feel casters would need any sort of compensation for removing these spells? Perhaps some bonus metamagic feats or some such. Sounds like an interesting idea.
navar100 01-29-08, 03:33 AM	You force a spellcaster to spend feats on metamagic, but they may not want to. Does a cleric really win the game by casting Holy Aura? You tremble at Power Word Stun? Phantasmal Killer is not causing you problems at 7th level? You're ok with the druid casting Freedom of Movement when you have grappling trolls? Individual spells may cause problems, not all. Spellcasters can always do stuff non-spellcasters can't. However, non-spellcasters are not wimps either. Spellcasters shouldn't be so punished.
ppirilla 01-29-08, 11:53 AM	If your group tends to play through to level 20, this will get frustrating to spellcasters toward the end of the campaign, since they would have to multiclass just to gain aby new abilities at all after level 12 or so. If your campaigns never actually get to that high of a level, then this is no problem, but at the very least you should let the spellcasters multiclass freely if not some other ability to compensate. how about Your caster level increases by one for every class level you gain in a non-casting class. All spellcasting classes gain this class feature at the second level in which they would gain 7th level spells (Wizard/Cleric 14, Sorcerer 15, etc) That needs to be worded better, but I think you get the idea
unundindur 01-29-08, 01:25 PM	You could take a look at the magician class in my signature if you want another take on spellcasters, that remove high level spells, in exchange for unlimited powers.
Eldritch_Lord 01-29-08, 01:54 PM	It might work, if you made a few adjustments. Off the top of my head: 1) Make any spells cast from 7th/8th/9th slots automatically heightened for 7th/8th/9th save DCs. 2) Give clerics and sorceres free metamagic/item creation feats like the wizard has. 3) Implement a relatively minor "second wind" self-healing at higher levels (for coming back from negative HPs or avoiding damage past -10 HP only) to compensate for lack of resurrection and true resurrection, unless you are deliberately removing them from the game. If I were in your position, I'd selectively nerf spells and boost non-casters rather than just cutting off spell progression at 13th level, but YMMV.
Xavon 01-31-08, 09:51 PM	I'm a fan of this, but I add to it that a caster can 'learn' spells of level 7-9 for by spending a feat.
squidyak 02-01-08, 01:31 AM	A better way to do this might be what I do in some of my campaigns. I make wizard a prestige class, with a requirement of knowledge (arcane) or 9 ranks. That way, simply getting to the wizard class takes effort and higher level spells are unavailable until 20th level or so.
Nathreet 02-10-08, 03:32 PM	New spell level gained every 3 levels instead of every 2. So a 4th level wizard now casts as a 3rd level wizard, 7th casts as 5th, 10th casts as 7th, etc. You just need to fill in the gaps now. Screw the 7th-9th slots for metamagic; just don't have them at all. There, done. Even at lower levels when the wizard is weak you'll still likely want at least 1 in the party to handle what others can't. Kinda like a rogue designed to play the skillmonkey.
thecasualoblivion 02-12-08, 10:49 PM	An easy solution is just to make all spellcasting classes use the Bard progression. They do end up with fewer castings, and metamagic goes from required to almost entirely pointless, but its an existing system limiting casters to 6th level spells and it is indeed a caster nerf.
Legdiwena 02-14-08, 06:10 PM	You would have to adjust psionics. Some of the powers equate to higher level spells when you augment it to 20th .
Eldritch_Lord 02-14-08, 07:19 PM	You would have to adjust psionics. Some of the powers equate to higher level spells when you augment it to 20th . Only a few; on the whole, it's like casting a fireball at CL 20 rather than augmenting up to a meteor swarm.
Dog_O_War 02-15-08, 10:48 AM	Maybe keep the 7th level spells. Offer a free metamagic (and metamagic feat only) at the levels that you would normally gain 8th and 9th level spells. Maybe also give one extra spells, like..... 15th: +1 1st level spell/day 16th: +1 2nd level spell/day 17th: +1 3rd level spell/day 18th: +1 4th level spell/day 19th: +1 5th level spell/day 20th: +1 6th level spell/day Give sorcerers an additional spell known (any level, up to one level lower than they can cast) at 16th and 18th as well. This is what I suggest you do if you cut out higher level spells. Another option would be to just end all campaigns by 14th level, dragging out the rate at which you gain levels.