No more classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

No more classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Banpai
08-04-06, 08:31 PM Hi I currently work on replacing the standart class system with a system that allows chracters to purchase abilities directly by paying a certan amount of XP instead of taking a class and getting a bundle.
Has someone already tryed something like that or do you know of something that could help me ? (I have already seen ÜberGenerics, it´s very interresting) I would love to hear about it.
Voldar_Mecorthio
08-04-06, 10:13 PM You could create a "power buy" system where you buy various features like spellcasting, turn undead, sneak attack, evasion, speed increce, and every other class feature. You could build them like feats. I recomend Generic Classes from Unearthed Arcana. I dispise the system, but that's just me. You pick one of three classes, expert, warrior, or spellcaster, all they get in the way of class features are bonus feats. (and casting for spellcaster) There are then feats that give class features.
Ilium
08-04-06, 10:19 PM There is a system available that does this, called Buy the Numbers. Available in PDF.
enlightened
08-05-06, 03:09 AM There is a system available that does this, called Buy the Numbers. Available in PDF.

There's another way to do it also. ...............It's called GURPS!
Banpai
08-05-06, 04:41 AM First thank you all for your replies.

Voldar_Mecorthio:Well I do know the Generic Classes from UA but to be onest I think they are rather unappealing to me, the part where they separated the class features into separate feats with requirements does have make sense but most of the time I would just sit down for an hour and write a new class myself it´s not that hard after all. But then my DM is a very nice person.

Ilium:The RPG Now description seems interresting I will certanly look for this one next time I am in a game store.

enlightened:Of course there is always Gurps and it´s usefull for many things but I wanted to create a variant XP->Power System that allows more freedom for character development.

To shed a little bit of light on this: one of my gaming groups recently changed from TDE(The Dark Eye)3rd edition to the 4th edition (a change I wanted for years, but they always said it´s to much like D&D :D ). In the new edition characters are created with a combination of race, culture and profession but once the character is created you can do whatever you want, for instance you can invest something in your speak language skill when you are in another country. Of couse in such a system it´s easier to ruin your chracter with bad choises, but a Bard1/Barbarian1/Commoner1/Expert1....... doesn´t strike me as overly effective either.

This is the freedom I want for my D&D game, for instance wouldn´t it be cool if you could chose to invest most of your XP into feats, or you could invest XP to increase your hit points into the stratosphere. The real advantage of such a system is, despite the fact that most of the powerfull abilities are not accessable until you have learned the basic stuff, that you can react in the adventure the way it makes sense for the character (learning languages, getting getting some obscure feat(special ability) after the training with an important NPC) without having to wait for the next level up. A creative DM/player could easily convert something like prestige class 1232 into a feat chain....I admid it´s pretty close to the generic classes system but it makes more sense to cut the classes alltogether.

Well in case I made you curious TDE (http://www.thedarkeyerpg.com/aventuria.htm) it´s a game system stat stands and falls with his game world and it´s not really compatible with most published D&D Worlds but it can claim its very own realism (mostly nothing a level 11+ character in D&D can do).
Banpai
08-05-06, 05:33 AM I try to write down a little Idea the numbers are far from final:

The Fighter in a classless system:

increase BAB:
1->2=250XP
2->3=300XP
3->4=350XP
....usw
Buy next HD:
2ndHD 3ndHD 4th usw....
D4=150XP 200 250
D6=250XP 300 350
D8=400XP 450 450
D10=600XP 650 700
D12=850XP 900 950

increase base saving throw
1->2 200
2->3 300
3->4 400
usw....

skill points (well I have two different versions for this one)

buy new set of skill points:
2nd set 3rd set 4th set
2+int 100 2+int 150 2+int 200
4+int 200 4+int 250
6+int
8+int

Make skill a class skill 150XP

buy skill ranks (percentual discount for high INT, or maybe INT*2)
rank cost
1 5
2 10
3 15
4 20
5 25
6 30

Buy feat, depending on feat:

Feat Requ. Cost

Power Attack STR 13 2000
Combat Expertise INT13 2000
Weapon Specialization BAB4, Weapon Focus 2500
Profiencies: Simple Weapons 500
Martial Weapons 2000
Armor light 1000
medium 1000
heavy 1000

Well thats a rough draft how to bring a fighter into such a system for (accurate) costs I would have to do my math way better ( a level 20 Fighter has about 200,000 XP, from his class levels he gains:
20d10, 20*2+int skill points with a small list of class skills, 20 points BAB, 11 bonus feats from a specific list, the ability to take feats other classes have no access to, all armor, shield and simple and martial weapons
in addition to that every character gets a number of free feats and ability increases as he gains more levels

no all I have to do is to transfer this into numbers so you can get a similar result with the new system ...... :plotting: )

I wonder is it worth the work of should I just use the good old system.
Witchblade
08-05-06, 01:21 PM You should take a look at the balance calculators for this. Those sheets list special abilities with points. Every level-up should be 10 points. So a base class gets 200 points total, and PrC get 100.

BTW, you shouldn't even expect to come close to any form of aproximate balance by inventing your own system. It just won't work.
Banpai
08-05-06, 05:20 PM And where can I find something like that? And BTW I don´t expect to reinvent the wheel, it´s more of an intellectual challenge.
Witchblade
08-06-06, 08:02 PM Lotus Crane (search google or the boards for his classes) rebalanced all the classes and listed the points. Most class generator tools have those options too.

Anyway, good luck.
Voldar_Mecorthio
08-06-06, 08:27 PM I like your system, and I must say it reminds me of Diablo 2. I don't like a no-class system, but you have a good one.
Illithid_Tentacles
08-06-06, 11:35 PM There's another way to do it also. ...............It's called GURPS!
I was going to say this. Well, I was actually going to say "just go play GURPS," but close enough.
Banpai
08-10-06, 06:14 PM Witchblade:Thank you I found it, very interresting....
Voldar_Mecorthio:Thx
Illithid_Tentacles: GURPS is not D&D not even close ;)

Anywans I need more time to work on this I will present it eventually.
Mr_Spicoli
08-31-06, 10:40 AM There is a system available that does this, called Buy the Numbers. Available in PDF.

I have this system and use it as an option my players can select. It works in combination with normal classes perfectly. So we have groups of players who have classes and some who don't. The system has been playtested and is very useable.

If anything, use this sytem as a framework to tweak to you're tastes. It is already balanced and playtested so it is the best base for a solid foundatoin.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Banpai 08-04-06, 08:31 PM	Hi I currently work on replacing the standart class system with a system that allows chracters to purchase abilities directly by paying a certan amount of XP instead of taking a class and getting a bundle. Has someone already tryed something like that or do you know of something that could help me ? (I have already seen ÜberGenerics, it´s very interresting) I would love to hear about it.
Voldar_Mecorthio 08-04-06, 10:13 PM	You could create a "power buy" system where you buy various features like spellcasting, turn undead, sneak attack, evasion, speed increce, and every other class feature. You could build them like feats. I recomend Generic Classes from Unearthed Arcana. I dispise the system, but that's just me. You pick one of three classes, expert, warrior, or spellcaster, all they get in the way of class features are bonus feats. (and casting for spellcaster) There are then feats that give class features.
Ilium 08-04-06, 10:19 PM	There is a system available that does this, called Buy the Numbers. Available in PDF.
enlightened 08-05-06, 03:09 AM	There is a system available that does this, called Buy the Numbers. Available in PDF. There's another way to do it also. ...............It's called GURPS!
Banpai 08-05-06, 04:41 AM	First thank you all for your replies. Voldar_Mecorthio:Well I do know the Generic Classes from UA but to be onest I think they are rather unappealing to me, the part where they separated the class features into separate feats with requirements does have make sense but most of the time I would just sit down for an hour and write a new class myself it´s not that hard after all. But then my DM is a very nice person. Ilium:The RPG Now description seems interresting I will certanly look for this one next time I am in a game store. enlightened:Of course there is always Gurps and it´s usefull for many things but I wanted to create a variant XP->Power System that allows more freedom for character development. To shed a little bit of light on this: one of my gaming groups recently changed from TDE(The Dark Eye)3rd edition to the 4th edition (a change I wanted for years, but they always said it´s to much like D&D :D ). In the new edition characters are created with a combination of race, culture and profession but once the character is created you can do whatever you want, for instance you can invest something in your speak language skill when you are in another country. Of couse in such a system it´s easier to ruin your chracter with bad choises, but a Bard1/Barbarian1/Commoner1/Expert1....... doesn´t strike me as overly effective either. This is the freedom I want for my D&D game, for instance wouldn´t it be cool if you could chose to invest most of your XP into feats, or you could invest XP to increase your hit points into the stratosphere. The real advantage of such a system is, despite the fact that most of the powerfull abilities are not accessable until you have learned the basic stuff, that you can react in the adventure the way it makes sense for the character (learning languages, getting getting some obscure feat(special ability) after the training with an important NPC) without having to wait for the next level up. A creative DM/player could easily convert something like prestige class 1232 into a feat chain....I admid it´s pretty close to the generic classes system but it makes more sense to cut the classes alltogether. Well in case I made you curious TDE (http://www.thedarkeyerpg.com/aventuria.htm) it´s a game system stat stands and falls with his game world and it´s not really compatible with most published D&D Worlds but it can claim its very own realism (mostly nothing a level 11+ character in D&D can do).
Banpai 08-05-06, 05:33 AM	I try to write down a little Idea the numbers are far from final: The Fighter in a classless system: increase BAB: 1->2=250XP 2->3=300XP 3->4=350XP ....usw Buy next HD: 2ndHD 3ndHD 4th usw.... D4=150XP 200 250 D6=250XP 300 350 D8=400XP 450 450 D10=600XP 650 700 D12=850XP 900 950 increase base saving throw 1->2 200 2->3 300 3->4 400 usw.... skill points (well I have two different versions for this one) buy new set of skill points: 2nd set 3rd set 4th set 2+int 100 2+int 150 2+int 200 4+int 200 4+int 250 6+int 8+int Make skill a class skill 150XP buy skill ranks (percentual discount for high INT, or maybe INT2) rank cost 1 5 2 10 3 15 4 20 5 25 6 30 Buy feat, depending on feat: Feat Requ. Cost Power Attack STR 13 2000 Combat Expertise INT13 2000 Weapon Specialization BAB4, Weapon Focus 2500 Profiencies: Simple Weapons 500 Martial Weapons 2000 Armor light 1000 medium 1000 heavy 1000 Well thats a rough draft how to bring a fighter into such a system for (accurate) costs I would have to do my math way better ( a level 20 Fighter has about 200,000 XP, from his class levels he gains: 20d10, 202+int skill points with a small list of class skills, 20 points BAB, 11 bonus feats from a specific list, the ability to take feats other classes have no access to, all armor, shield and simple and martial weapons in addition to that every character gets a number of free feats and ability increases as he gains more levels no all I have to do is to transfer this into numbers so you can get a similar result with the new system ...... :plotting: ) I wonder is it worth the work of should I just use the good old system.
Witchblade 08-05-06, 01:21 PM	You should take a look at the balance calculators for this. Those sheets list special abilities with points. Every level-up should be 10 points. So a base class gets 200 points total, and PrC get 100. BTW, you shouldn't even expect to come close to any form of aproximate balance by inventing your own system. It just won't work.
Banpai 08-05-06, 05:20 PM	And where can I find something like that? And BTW I don´t expect to reinvent the wheel, it´s more of an intellectual challenge.
Witchblade 08-06-06, 08:02 PM	Lotus Crane (search google or the boards for his classes) rebalanced all the classes and listed the points. Most class generator tools have those options too. Anyway, good luck.
Voldar_Mecorthio 08-06-06, 08:27 PM	I like your system, and I must say it reminds me of Diablo 2. I don't like a no-class system, but you have a good one.
Illithid_Tentacles 08-06-06, 11:35 PM	There's another way to do it also. ...............It's called GURPS! I was going to say this. Well, I was actually going to say "just go play GURPS," but close enough.
Banpai 08-10-06, 06:14 PM	Witchblade:Thank you I found it, very interresting.... Voldar_Mecorthio:Thx Illithid_Tentacles: GURPS is not D&D not even close ;) Anywans I need more time to work on this I will present it eventually.
Mr_Spicoli 08-31-06, 10:40 AM	There is a system available that does this, called Buy the Numbers. Available in PDF. I have this system and use it as an option my players can select. It works in combination with normal classes perfectly. So we have groups of players who have classes and some who don't. The system has been playtested and is very useable. If anything, use this sytem as a framework to tweak to you're tastes. It is already balanced and playtested so it is the best base for a solid foundatoin.