No Resurections [Archive] - Wizards Community

No Resurections [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Voldar_Mecorthio
07-04-06, 10:27 PM I am going to start a new campaign, and I was thinking of axing the raise dead, reincarnate, resurection, and true resurection spells. They make death just a minor hassle! I want to create an atmosphere of "if you die then you're dead" rather than "if you die it costs you 1000-2000gp to come back to life". It would still be possable to bring people back from the dead, but to do so would require some sort of quest, possably to find some sort of artifact.

Is this a good idea?
Makuya
07-04-06, 10:34 PM You'll have to raise the CRs... BIG TIME.
AT-AT Assault
07-04-06, 10:41 PM I am going to start a new campaign, and I was thinking of axing the raise dead, reincarnate, resurection, and true resurection spells. They make death just a minor hassle! I want to create an atmosphere of "if you die then you're dead" rather than "if you die it costs you 1000-2000gp to come back to life". It would still be possable to bring people back from the dead, but to do so would require some sort of quest, possably to find some sort of artifact.

Is this a good idea?Good? Depends. Will your players like it (because they could be out of play for a session or two, and that's not good)?

I think its doable, have some Cleric of a good deity (or rarely, have the deity itself) put a quest on you for their deity, then once said quest is completed, all dead party members are restored to life.

BTW, Only Reincarnate costs 1000 gp. Raise Dead costs 5000 (a starter magic item). Resurrection costs 10000 gp (a magic item). Finally True Ressurection cost 25000 gp (a decent magic item). So its not as cheap as you make it to be.
Verelor
07-04-06, 11:00 PM If a group of characters can survive a life and danger and despair until 6th level, they can do so for longer than that, I say.
grelna
07-04-06, 11:31 PM If a group of characters can survive a life and danger and despair until 6th level, they can do so for longer than that, I say.The problem with that particular point of view is that at the higher levels there are so many more encounters involving save or die situations. Players could do everything right and still lose their characters due to one unfortunate die roll and sooner or later, they will, unless the GM nerfs the bad guys by avoiding those types of spells or traps.
CryoSilver
07-04-06, 11:39 PM Instead of just tossing Ressurection, how about you give it an XP cost?

1,000 XP for Raise Dead and Reincarnate, 2,000 XP for Ressurection and 3,000 XP for True Res. That would make it a LOT harder to stumble across, while leaving it avaialable if someone really liked their (relaitvely wealthy) character; remember: extra 5 gp cost to have it cast for each XP it costs. That makes Raise Dead cost an extra 5,000 gp, and True Res and extra 15k;a lot at any level.
lostone
07-05-06, 08:50 AM I've considered doing this as well, just changing the setting so the afterlife does not allow returns. It would definitely make the group slow down and strategize more.

However I'd highly recommend limiting those save or die situations.

Introduce "Fate Points" (I don't remember where I first got this idea, think it was a house rule of a previous DM of mine). At the beginning of the campaign during character creation, the DM rolls 1d6-1 (or 1d4-1 or whatever DM wants) for each character and keeps track. When the player is going to die and can't avoid it, they can opt to use a Fate Point. At this time the DM tells them they are out of Fate Points, or elaborates on some miracle that saves the character's life but likely keeps them near death and out of the fight until the fight is over. Each time a Fate Point is used, the DM subtracts one from the number left for that character. When the character is out of Fate Points and dies, they're gone, roll up a new character.
Nelagend
07-05-06, 10:46 AM I wouldn't entirely take out resurrections unless you basically eliminate the "save or die" spells as well, or make counteracting magical items readily available to the PCs. Roguelikes that include "save or die" as a mechanic have ways to become immune (the only one that comes to mind is Nethack, where you can consume black dragon corpses to become disintegration resistant), or it requires you to do something stupid (such as wandering into lava in Crawl while confused - smart players don't stand within one square of deep water or lava unless they're in an area without confusion, immune to confusion, or levitating.) If you take out resurrections, you're basically playing a party-oriented roguelike with roleplaying.

Now, if you want players to respect death more, that's simply done by adding XP costs to the spells. Reincarnate carries a 500-1000 XP tag. You CAN buy this one, although it's expensive and the DM rolls what you end up as. Ooh, look at the scary halfling barbarian... or worse, the half-fiendish paladin that now has a lot of explaining to do.

Raise Dead should have something like a 4000-8000 XP cost. Spells like Resurrection, True Resurrection, and Wish make you lose a level just like the lower spells. If you want to make Wish avoid level loss and keep death something to really avoid, I'd make it uncastable and only available in non-craftable rings from a lost age.

By the same token, in order to keep life fair, Disintegrate should have its damage cut in half and then increased by one die type, for somewhere from half to a third of actual damage. There should probably also be items available with disintegration resistance, but if you're going to make better items available, don't let the PCs craft them freely! Control this yourself. Stuff like Cloudkill and Death Spell deals poison/negative damage instead of autokill, and Finger of Death is probably a big hit to Con. Items should exist to partially protect from this ability damage, but again, do NOT let the PCs craft such items, or you'll end up with PCs who are totally immune to incorporeal undead or something unintended like that.
Phoenix Knight
07-05-06, 11:12 AM I don't use ressurection magic, either. Like lostone, I use fate points in a way pretty similar to the way he describes. The topic was actually being discussed on an action point thread several days back.
Nani?
07-05-06, 11:28 AM Make the resurrection cost not in GP but in intangible things, like bargins with the gods, the priests etc.
For example, as a result of a resurrection, the priest who cast the spell looks at the resurrectee as thier adopted son or daughter (I gave you life) and the person returned considering that they where literarally brought back from the dead are permanently charmed.

How about a diety agrees to the resurrection of somebody, but with the understanding that they must observe a taboo or agree to some action. Imagine for example, the only cleric availible to cast resurrection serves Correllian Latharian....well, you'd better get used to being an elf.

All the Best,

Nani?
calvinNhobbes
07-05-06, 11:55 AM I also do not like the ease of being raised from the dead. Remember that someone has to want to be brought back to life. Would you give up heaven to come back to Earth? I often require quests, which usually requires the party travelling to the specific outerplane the soul of the deceased resides and then convincing them to give up their utopian dream and be brought back to life. The longer they have been dead the more convincing they need. On the flip side, if they were an evil character, sometimes their soul needs rescuing form an eternity of torture in hell. I will usually let the player with the dead character play some cool outsider the party has searched out for help, like a hound archon, for the duration of the quest.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Voldar_Mecorthio 07-04-06, 10:27 PM	I am going to start a new campaign, and I was thinking of axing the raise dead, reincarnate, resurection, and true resurection spells. They make death just a minor hassle! I want to create an atmosphere of "if you die then you're dead" rather than "if you die it costs you 1000-2000gp to come back to life". It would still be possable to bring people back from the dead, but to do so would require some sort of quest, possably to find some sort of artifact. Is this a good idea?
Makuya 07-04-06, 10:34 PM	You'll have to raise the CRs... BIG TIME.
AT-AT Assault 07-04-06, 10:41 PM	I am going to start a new campaign, and I was thinking of axing the raise dead, reincarnate, resurection, and true resurection spells. They make death just a minor hassle! I want to create an atmosphere of "if you die then you're dead" rather than "if you die it costs you 1000-2000gp to come back to life". It would still be possable to bring people back from the dead, but to do so would require some sort of quest, possably to find some sort of artifact. Is this a good idea?Good? Depends. Will your players like it (because they could be out of play for a session or two, and that's not good)? I think its doable, have some Cleric of a good deity (or rarely, have the deity itself) put a quest on you for their deity, then once said quest is completed, all dead party members are restored to life. BTW, Only Reincarnate costs 1000 gp. Raise Dead costs 5000 (a starter magic item). Resurrection costs 10000 gp (a magic item). Finally True Ressurection cost 25000 gp (a decent magic item). So its not as cheap as you make it to be.
Verelor 07-04-06, 11:00 PM	If a group of characters can survive a life and danger and despair until 6th level, they can do so for longer than that, I say.
grelna 07-04-06, 11:31 PM	If a group of characters can survive a life and danger and despair until 6th level, they can do so for longer than that, I say.The problem with that particular point of view is that at the higher levels there are so many more encounters involving save or die situations. Players could do everything right and still lose their characters due to one unfortunate die roll and sooner or later, they will, unless the GM nerfs the bad guys by avoiding those types of spells or traps.
CryoSilver 07-04-06, 11:39 PM	Instead of just tossing Ressurection, how about you give it an XP cost? 1,000 XP for Raise Dead and Reincarnate, 2,000 XP for Ressurection and 3,000 XP for True Res. That would make it a LOT harder to stumble across, while leaving it avaialable if someone really liked their (relaitvely wealthy) character; remember: extra 5 gp cost to have it cast for each XP it costs. That makes Raise Dead cost an extra 5,000 gp, and True Res and extra 15k;a lot at any level.
lostone 07-05-06, 08:50 AM	I've considered doing this as well, just changing the setting so the afterlife does not allow returns. It would definitely make the group slow down and strategize more. However I'd highly recommend limiting those save or die situations. Introduce "Fate Points" (I don't remember where I first got this idea, think it was a house rule of a previous DM of mine). At the beginning of the campaign during character creation, the DM rolls 1d6-1 (or 1d4-1 or whatever DM wants) for each character and keeps track. When the player is going to die and can't avoid it, they can opt to use a Fate Point. At this time the DM tells them they are out of Fate Points, or elaborates on some miracle that saves the character's life but likely keeps them near death and out of the fight until the fight is over. Each time a Fate Point is used, the DM subtracts one from the number left for that character. When the character is out of Fate Points and dies, they're gone, roll up a new character.
Nelagend 07-05-06, 10:46 AM	I wouldn't entirely take out resurrections unless you basically eliminate the "save or die" spells as well, or make counteracting magical items readily available to the PCs. Roguelikes that include "save or die" as a mechanic have ways to become immune (the only one that comes to mind is Nethack, where you can consume black dragon corpses to become disintegration resistant), or it requires you to do something stupid (such as wandering into lava in Crawl while confused - smart players don't stand within one square of deep water or lava unless they're in an area without confusion, immune to confusion, or levitating.) If you take out resurrections, you're basically playing a party-oriented roguelike with roleplaying. Now, if you want players to respect death more, that's simply done by adding XP costs to the spells. Reincarnate carries a 500-1000 XP tag. You CAN buy this one, although it's expensive and the DM rolls what you end up as. Ooh, look at the scary halfling barbarian... or worse, the half-fiendish paladin that now has a lot of explaining to do. Raise Dead should have something like a 4000-8000 XP cost. Spells like Resurrection, True Resurrection, and Wish make you lose a level just like the lower spells. If you want to make Wish avoid level loss and keep death something to really avoid, I'd make it uncastable and only available in non-craftable rings from a lost age. By the same token, in order to keep life fair, Disintegrate should have its damage cut in half and then increased by one die type, for somewhere from half to a third of actual damage. There should probably also be items available with disintegration resistance, but if you're going to make better items available, don't let the PCs craft them freely! Control this yourself. Stuff like Cloudkill and Death Spell deals poison/negative damage instead of autokill, and Finger of Death is probably a big hit to Con. Items should exist to partially protect from this ability damage, but again, do NOT let the PCs craft such items, or you'll end up with PCs who are totally immune to incorporeal undead or something unintended like that.
Phoenix Knight 07-05-06, 11:12 AM	I don't use ressurection magic, either. Like lostone, I use fate points in a way pretty similar to the way he describes. The topic was actually being discussed on an action point thread several days back.
Nani? 07-05-06, 11:28 AM	Make the resurrection cost not in GP but in intangible things, like bargins with the gods, the priests etc. For example, as a result of a resurrection, the priest who cast the spell looks at the resurrectee as thier adopted son or daughter (I gave you life) and the person returned considering that they where literarally brought back from the dead are permanently charmed. How about a diety agrees to the resurrection of somebody, but with the understanding that they must observe a taboo or agree to some action. Imagine for example, the only cleric availible to cast resurrection serves Correllian Latharian....well, you'd better get used to being an elf. All the Best, Nani?
calvinNhobbes 07-05-06, 11:55 AM	I also do not like the ease of being raised from the dead. Remember that someone has to want to be brought back to life. Would you give up heaven to come back to Earth? I often require quests, which usually requires the party travelling to the specific outerplane the soul of the deceased resides and then convincing them to give up their utopian dream and be brought back to life. The longer they have been dead the more convincing they need. On the flip side, if they were an evil character, sometimes their soul needs rescuing form an eternity of torture in hell. I will usually let the player with the dead character play some cool outsider the party has searched out for help, like a hound archon, for the duration of the quest.