NPC's in a Gestalt Game [Archive] - Wizards Community

NPC's in a Gestalt Game [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Black_Puffin
04-11-07, 06:07 PM I'm working on a Gestalt Game and I was wondering about setting CRs. I know a party can handle a CR equal to their level+1.

Do the NPC's and enemies also gain Gestalt levels (levels gestaltly?) or are they plain vanilla classes?
If you do throw a Gestalt bad guy, how do you calculate their CR?

I'm more or less refering to creatures that advance via class levels not HD.
Sorentia
04-27-07, 09:33 AM I'm working on a Gestalt Game and I was wondering about setting CRs. I know a party can handle a CR equal to their level+1.

Do the NPC's and enemies also gain Gestalt levels (levels gestaltly?) or are they plain vanilla classes?
If you do throw a Gestalt bad guy, how do you calculate their CR?

I'm more or less refering to creatures that advance via class levels not HD.

The following should answer your question and is quoted from the d20srd.com website in the section on gestalt charactors and campaigns.

NPCs
An important aspect of most campaigns is verisimilitude—which is centered on the notion that everything in the campaign world is obeying the same set of rules. Accordingly, any important NPCs in your game should also be gestalt characters. It’s probably not necessary to have low-level noncombatant NPCs pick two classes, but any NPCs above 1st level should be constructed as gestalt characters. (NPCs with levels only in NPC classes-adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, and warrior-can remain standard characters.)
Black_Puffin
05-01-07, 05:18 PM Yeah, I read that... again... shortly after posting.
It also had been so long I had given up on this thread.

I was more interested in how to gauge the CR of the ones that have chosen two levels (and to a lesser extent how people handle the adv gnolls and kobolds of the world).
To rephrase: If I have a kobold sorcerer 3 and a kobold fighter-sorcerer 3 are they the same CR? Assume that they are in their own respective games, non-gestalt and gestalt, thus not putting the sorcerer (only) in a gestalt game.
Vengeblade
05-01-07, 06:45 PM Gauging CR with gestalt is a lot harder to balance out. The most important thing to remember is that every gestalt party is going to require a different setup. Even with all the basic roles covered-Meatshield, Healer, Mage, Skill monkey-each character is going to be able to pick a 2nd class. This is probably going to orient the group heavily into either melee, magic, or skills.

Depending on which way the party goes, that usually depends on what creatures and CRs you need.

With a standard party of 4, the first few levels (1-3 or 1-4) you simply should stick to the CR+1 rule. After that, the party will start to grow in power a bit mroe quickly. For levels 4or5-8, using CR+2or+3 or two creatures of the party's CR should work. After that, you're either going to have to amp up the CR by4 somtimes (which runs risk of having DR or resist the party might have trouble with early on, but not usually), or start using multiple creatures.

Try to avoid using single creatures after level 4, as the party will have more options and abilities to utilize, making short work of single oppenents before they ever get to round 2 or 3.

Now, heavy melee groups are the easiest to work with, sticking to standard melee monsters for the most part.

Caster groups are harder, you need to see where they all specialize. If they excel at blasting, animals, magical beasts, or any creature with high HP and unique abilites (displacer beasts and the like) generally work here, giving a challenge while letting the players excel at what they do. You'll learn how to match casters with mosters.

Skill groups need special combats every know and then. Set up hard fights in rooms with objects (i.e. chandelier to drop on enenmy or hang from for advantage.) or really in sort of encuonter that utililzes multiple skills.

Really, what kind of party you have will start to dictate either what kind fo monsters to use or the number of monsters you'll use.

Lastly, NPCs, in my opinion, should be gestalt OR regular at your discretion. Im my worlds, gestalt is merely an ability that some people are born with. Making everything gestalt can be tedious at times, so I jsut settle for normal people.

Hope that helps.
Black_Puffin
05-03-07, 05:45 PM Yes, it does help. Thanks, but my main question is still unanswered.

Is a sorcerer-fighter 1 kobold considered CR1 (and for an alternative a ranger-wizard 1 human considered CR1) in gestalt?

I have a tendency to throw several mixed classed NPCs as an encounter. Classes varying on the PC's classes as needed.
ex. two constables (fighter 1's) and a paladin (lv3) as an urban CR 4 encounter

The other thing is I've been playing a bunch of solo adventures and the PC's (individually) have a tendency to take a lot of damage and have little in terms of healing power. Gestalt seemed to be the way to go.

This would be my first gestalt game so I wanted to make sure I know what I'd be doing. It won't necessarily be a solo game though.
Holy_Beholder
05-03-07, 06:18 PM Okay, I have never played Gestalt, but-and correct me if I am wrong-Gestalt is just combining two classes and taking the better Hit Die, BAB, weapon proficiencies, etc. of them. Clearly the characters have more power, so the NPCs could maybe have a gestalt two NPC class, or a good PC class. As for CR, it would seem to go up(sorcerer fighter would be entertaining, hehe) by at least 25%. So if you just increase CR by 25%, then you could be fine, and have a good formula that works through epic. The percentage may need tweaking, but this seems the easiest way.
Black_Puffin
05-03-07, 07:46 PM Okay, I have never played Gestalt, but-and correct me if I am wrong-Gestalt is just combining two classes and taking the better Hit Die, BAB, weapon proficiencies, etc. of them. Clearly the characters have more power, so the NPCs could maybe have a gestalt two NPC class, or a good PC class. As for CR, it would seem to go up(sorcerer fighter would be entertaining, hehe) by at least 25%. So if you just increase CR by 25%, then you could be fine, and have a good formula that works through epic. The percentage may need tweaking, but this seems the easiest way.

I agree with the sorcerer-fighter, especially on a kobold.

Unearthed arcana says that the party can handle an encounter of their level + 1. It also says that while they have the power of two classes, they are limited by the amount of actions in the round and their feat choices. Therefore, a fighter-sorcerer would have to divide his feats among melee and spellcasting and would not be able to cast a spell (unless quickened, but he's a sorcerer, unless he's the metamagic specialist variant in PHB2) and engage in melee in the same round. Given this I don't think the CR should jump dramatically.

I was thinking about this as I wrote the above, a sorcerer-fighter who has expended his spells would fight as a normal fighter. This would take some time though.
Taking my kobold idea, let's say the party chases this little guy around for a good portion of the day and his spells are spent. The kobold would have to resort to physical combat. It'd be like fighting a fighter with a high Will save. I'd say the CR doesn't change but the tactics do. Just a thought but I'd like confirmation.
Holy_Beholder
05-03-07, 08:13 PM Quickened spells+more options+better saves. It can be very abused. What about a monk/archery fighter. They can stay out of range effortlessly, and shoot up anything.
Vengeblade
05-03-07, 09:47 PM Genereally players will pick classes that mesh well feat wise, like instead of fighter-sorcerer, they might go fighter duskblade.

Yes in a gestalt game, a fighter/sorcerer1 kobold would be a CR1. But like I said, CR becomes VERY subjective here. It's a basic guide until oyu know what your party can handle. I usually don't assaign CRs for XP handout until after the fight, so I can gauge the difficulty.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Black_Puffin 04-11-07, 06:07 PM	I'm working on a Gestalt Game and I was wondering about setting CRs. I know a party can handle a CR equal to their level+1. Do the NPC's and enemies also gain Gestalt levels (levels gestaltly?) or are they plain vanilla classes? If you do throw a Gestalt bad guy, how do you calculate their CR? I'm more or less refering to creatures that advance via class levels not HD.
Sorentia 04-27-07, 09:33 AM	I'm working on a Gestalt Game and I was wondering about setting CRs. I know a party can handle a CR equal to their level+1. Do the NPC's and enemies also gain Gestalt levels (levels gestaltly?) or are they plain vanilla classes? If you do throw a Gestalt bad guy, how do you calculate their CR? I'm more or less refering to creatures that advance via class levels not HD. The following should answer your question and is quoted from the d20srd.com website in the section on gestalt charactors and campaigns. NPCs An important aspect of most campaigns is verisimilitude—which is centered on the notion that everything in the campaign world is obeying the same set of rules. Accordingly, any important NPCs in your game should also be gestalt characters. It’s probably not necessary to have low-level noncombatant NPCs pick two classes, but any NPCs above 1st level should be constructed as gestalt characters. (NPCs with levels only in NPC classes-adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, and warrior-can remain standard characters.)
Black_Puffin 05-01-07, 05:18 PM	Yeah, I read that... again... shortly after posting. It also had been so long I had given up on this thread. I was more interested in how to gauge the CR of the ones that have chosen two levels (and to a lesser extent how people handle the adv gnolls and kobolds of the world). To rephrase: If I have a kobold sorcerer 3 and a kobold fighter-sorcerer 3 are they the same CR? Assume that they are in their own respective games, non-gestalt and gestalt, thus not putting the sorcerer (only) in a gestalt game.
Vengeblade 05-01-07, 06:45 PM	Gauging CR with gestalt is a lot harder to balance out. The most important thing to remember is that every gestalt party is going to require a different setup. Even with all the basic roles covered-Meatshield, Healer, Mage, Skill monkey-each character is going to be able to pick a 2nd class. This is probably going to orient the group heavily into either melee, magic, or skills. Depending on which way the party goes, that usually depends on what creatures and CRs you need. With a standard party of 4, the first few levels (1-3 or 1-4) you simply should stick to the CR+1 rule. After that, the party will start to grow in power a bit mroe quickly. For levels 4or5-8, using CR+2or+3 or two creatures of the party's CR should work. After that, you're either going to have to amp up the CR by4 somtimes (which runs risk of having DR or resist the party might have trouble with early on, but not usually), or start using multiple creatures. Try to avoid using single creatures after level 4, as the party will have more options and abilities to utilize, making short work of single oppenents before they ever get to round 2 or 3. Now, heavy melee groups are the easiest to work with, sticking to standard melee monsters for the most part. Caster groups are harder, you need to see where they all specialize. If they excel at blasting, animals, magical beasts, or any creature with high HP and unique abilites (displacer beasts and the like) generally work here, giving a challenge while letting the players excel at what they do. You'll learn how to match casters with mosters. Skill groups need special combats every know and then. Set up hard fights in rooms with objects (i.e. chandelier to drop on enenmy or hang from for advantage.) or really in sort of encuonter that utililzes multiple skills. Really, what kind of party you have will start to dictate either what kind fo monsters to use or the number of monsters you'll use. Lastly, NPCs, in my opinion, should be gestalt OR regular at your discretion. Im my worlds, gestalt is merely an ability that some people are born with. Making everything gestalt can be tedious at times, so I jsut settle for normal people. Hope that helps.
Black_Puffin 05-03-07, 05:45 PM	Yes, it does help. Thanks, but my main question is still unanswered. Is a sorcerer-fighter 1 kobold considered CR1 (and for an alternative a ranger-wizard 1 human considered CR1) in gestalt? I have a tendency to throw several mixed classed NPCs as an encounter. Classes varying on the PC's classes as needed. ex. two constables (fighter 1's) and a paladin (lv3) as an urban CR 4 encounter The other thing is I've been playing a bunch of solo adventures and the PC's (individually) have a tendency to take a lot of damage and have little in terms of healing power. Gestalt seemed to be the way to go. This would be my first gestalt game so I wanted to make sure I know what I'd be doing. It won't necessarily be a solo game though.
Holy_Beholder 05-03-07, 06:18 PM	Okay, I have never played Gestalt, but-and correct me if I am wrong-Gestalt is just combining two classes and taking the better Hit Die, BAB, weapon proficiencies, etc. of them. Clearly the characters have more power, so the NPCs could maybe have a gestalt two NPC class, or a good PC class. As for CR, it would seem to go up(sorcerer fighter would be entertaining, hehe) by at least 25%. So if you just increase CR by 25%, then you could be fine, and have a good formula that works through epic. The percentage may need tweaking, but this seems the easiest way.
Black_Puffin 05-03-07, 07:46 PM	Okay, I have never played Gestalt, but-and correct me if I am wrong-Gestalt is just combining two classes and taking the better Hit Die, BAB, weapon proficiencies, etc. of them. Clearly the characters have more power, so the NPCs could maybe have a gestalt two NPC class, or a good PC class. As for CR, it would seem to go up(sorcerer fighter would be entertaining, hehe) by at least 25%. So if you just increase CR by 25%, then you could be fine, and have a good formula that works through epic. The percentage may need tweaking, but this seems the easiest way. I agree with the sorcerer-fighter, especially on a kobold. Unearthed arcana says that the party can handle an encounter of their level + 1. It also says that while they have the power of two classes, they are limited by the amount of actions in the round and their feat choices. Therefore, a fighter-sorcerer would have to divide his feats among melee and spellcasting and would not be able to cast a spell (unless quickened, but he's a sorcerer, unless he's the metamagic specialist variant in PHB2) and engage in melee in the same round. Given this I don't think the CR should jump dramatically. I was thinking about this as I wrote the above, a sorcerer-fighter who has expended his spells would fight as a normal fighter. This would take some time though. Taking my kobold idea, let's say the party chases this little guy around for a good portion of the day and his spells are spent. The kobold would have to resort to physical combat. It'd be like fighting a fighter with a high Will save. I'd say the CR doesn't change but the tactics do. Just a thought but I'd like confirmation.
Holy_Beholder 05-03-07, 08:13 PM	Quickened spells+more options+better saves. It can be very abused. What about a monk/archery fighter. They can stay out of range effortlessly, and shoot up anything.
Vengeblade 05-03-07, 09:47 PM	Genereally players will pick classes that mesh well feat wise, like instead of fighter-sorcerer, they might go fighter duskblade. Yes in a gestalt game, a fighter/sorcerer1 kobold would be a CR1. But like I said, CR becomes VERY subjective here. It's a basic guide until oyu know what your party can handle. I usually don't assaign CRs for XP handout until after the fight, so I can gauge the difficulty.