Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jackmojo 10-20-06, 06:52 PM	I've been pondering running a game again and got thinking about house rules (as I often do) and was trying to decide what sort of impact modifying the ability bonus table to a straight 1 for 1 modifier would do, i.e. each point above 10 is a +1 and each point below 10 is a -1 modifier. I've never been a fan of the odd attributes having less impact then the even ones (other then feat access that is). I was thinking I could pair this with 25 or perhaps even lower point buy to balance it out, or just accept high modifiers adjusting the balance of power (in the second case I would likely ditch item based attribute mods and just have bad*** pc's) Any thought on things this would affect that I need to take into consideration? Jack
theotherdraxen 10-22-06, 12:28 AM	Well, I was always upset that someone who is twice as intelligent as a commoner (20 int) is only 25% more likely to succeed at anything. The same goes for the other stats. Upping the odds to 50% would definitely add realism to the game. However, you should probably reduce the effects of other things. Maybe players won't start with x4 skills at 1st level, or something.
Szatany 10-22-06, 12:46 PM	I've been pondering running a game again and got thinking about house rules (as I often do) and was trying to decide what sort of impact modifying the ability bonus table to a straight 1 for 1 modifier would do, i.e. each point above 10 is a +1 and each point below 10 is a -1 modifier. I've never been a fan of the odd attributes having less impact then the even ones (other then feat access that is). I was thinking I could pair this with 25 or perhaps even lower point buy to balance it out, or just accept high modifiers adjusting the balance of power (in the second case I would likely ditch item based attribute mods and just have bad*** pc's) Any thought on things this would affect that I need to take into consideration? JackYou would have to rework some magic items, spells, and every single monster. Other than that, there would be issues with almost everything, strating from divine grace and ending with spells DC.
pathwalker 10-22-06, 11:31 PM	One other option, you could remove the actual ability score itself, and just play with ability modifers, with your 'average' human having a +0 in all stats. For anything that modifies abilities, just cut that in half and it balances. elves would get +1 dex/-1 con for example, a belt of +2 strength would just give +1. For the monsters, just figure what their ability modifers would be, and use those. Only other real changes needed are for rolling/point buy system, and doubling the levels it takes to add a +1 to any score from leveling up.
starfire311 10-23-06, 09:58 AM	One other option, you could remove the actual ability score itself, and just play with ability modifers, with your 'average' human having a +0 in all stats. For anything that modifies abilities, just cut that in half and it balances. elves would get +1 dex/-1 con for example, a belt of +2 strength would just give +1. For the monsters, just figure what their ability modifers would be, and use those. Only other real changes needed are for rolling/point buy system, and doubling the levels it takes to add a +1 to any score from leveling up. I have been wanting to do this for a long time, It is IMO a very good way to go... starting ability scores would range from -1 to +4... I was even tempted to put a shift in there and just call a +1 modifier to be average and have starting ability scores go from 0 to +5. Elite array would be(+3, +3, +2, +2, +1, 0).
calvinNhobbes 10-23-06, 10:57 AM	I have been wanting to do this for a long time, It is IMO a very good way to go... starting ability scores would range from -1 to +4... I was even tempted to put a shift in there and just call a +1 modifier to be average and have starting ability scores go from 0 to +5. Elite array would be(+3, +3, +2, +2, +1, 0). If you use this system don't forget to modify how ability damage works.
Jackmojo 10-23-06, 11:36 AM	If I recall what I read about True20 correctly I tihnk thats how it does stats.... Worth thinking about for sure, this could also work with an alternate point buy method I saw someone use once where the PC's were allowed stats with a total modifier value of +X (so by taking lower stats they could get higher ones). Its mostly because of the ability damage/drain effects that I would be inlcined to leave the stats on the 3-18ish scale they are on now. As to needing to modify NPCs/monsters, I build them custom as needed, so thats less of an issue (using a modification of the SW system for having mooks vs named enemies), good point though and thanks for bringing it up. Any other things that've been missed so far I need to keep in my head? Jack
theotherdraxen 10-23-06, 07:44 PM	You would have to rework some magic items, spells, and every single monster. Other than that, there would be issues with almost everything, strating from divine grace and ending with spells DC. Well, I think that spells and Divine grace and other things might balance out. As long as two stats are involved in the check, doubling both of them isn't going to throw the game off balance, IMO. The monsters will be a pain, though. If you use this system don't forget to modify how ability damage works. Normal damage/2, round down should cover it.
bruiserdeck 10-24-06, 12:17 AM	not a bad idea. be a pain to impliment but not a bad concept. one problem is the 3d6 curb. by rolling 3d6 the average score is 9 and every thing above or below that is speical. NO ONE plays by the curve. most people modify it in some way rolling 4d6 minus low die, or rolling 2d6 +6 for example. there is still a curve but its leans toward higher scores. but by your example you simmply get a player to roll a D6 and 1 = -1, 2 = 0, 3 = +1 etc. thus a +4 is just as likely as a -1 stat. i dont really like it.. but the more i think about it the more i think its not THAT hard to work into the game. i think the big thing is how do you balance 1 point stat enhancements. for example at 4th level does a player automaticaly get + 1 on any one stat bonus? while that may seem cool in the begining at level 20 the player will be pretty massivly boosted having +5 (on top of base rolls) just from levels and bonuses resulting from magical items and effects as they leveld up.
Szatany 10-24-06, 12:29 AM	Well, I think that spells and Divine grace and other things might balance out. As long as two stats are involved in the check, doubling both of them isn't going to throw the game off balance, IMO. The monsters will be a pain, though. True about spells (at least as far as DC is concerned, not true about extra spell slots per day, unless you rework it). Not true about divine grace because there is 2 abilities to every save (Cha + original one) versus one ability that modifies a save. A paladin with old Cha 18 will have net +4 on all saves that is not paid for in any form. Probably any ability that lets you add modifier to something that already uses an ability modifer might be too good. What you will get besides that is bigger disproportion between characters. It might not be a bad thing if you aim for it, just something to remember. At first level, even with point buy, a Will save can range from -2 (WIs 8 and poor save) to +10 (Wis 18 and good save). At higher levels the rift will only widen and this can be very problematic. For example, you have 2 20-level characters, a barbarian and a cleric. The barbarian has Will of +9 (6 base, -2 Wis, +5 item) while the cleric has +36 (12 base, +19 Wis, +5 item). Now tell me this - you are preparing a monster that has offensive ability with Will DC, lets say Dominate Monster. What DC would you set? The problem I'm presenting is actually the whole reason why epic save progression was introduced.
starfire311 10-24-06, 08:57 AM	Normal damage/2, round down should cover it. with a caveat that you are not dead/disabled until -5
starfire311 10-24-06, 09:03 AM	not sure if you were replying to me or the OP, but since the OP's idea would not be affected by rolling I would assume it is me. not a bad idea. be a pain to impliment but not a bad concept. one problem is the 3d6 curb. by rolling 3d6 the average score is 9 and every thing above or below that is speical. NO ONE plays by the curve. most people modify it in some way rolling 4d6 minus low die, or rolling 2d6 +6 for example. there is still a curve but its leans toward higher scores. but by your example you simmply get a player to roll a D6 and 1 = -1, 2 = 0, 3 = +1 etc. thus a +4 is just as likely as a -1 stat. this isnt an issue, most people that would use this would not be rolling stats anyway... I have not rolled stats for a game in almost 10 years, and I would wager the majority of DnD characters being played are not created by rolling.(I basing it off of the 1000s and 1000s of RPGA characters that are not rolled, I bet for home games it is probably about even or maybe even more rolled than not.) i think the big thing is how do you balance 1 point stat enhancements. for example at 4th level does a player automaticaly get + 1 on any one stat bonus? while that may seem cool in the begining at level 20 the player will be pretty massivly boosted having +5 (on top of base rolls) just from levels and bonuses resulting from magical items and effects as they leveld up. This is a good question, I think I would start off by halving the enahncment bonuses from spells/items and leaving the level bonus and inherent bonuses along.
Thelon Fairblade 10-24-06, 10:33 AM	Odd-numbered stats qualify you for feats. STR 12 is +1, but STR 13 gets you Power Attack (and the rest of that tree). DEX 12 is +1, but DEX 13 gets you Dodge (and the rest of that tree). INT 12 is +1, but INT 13 gets you Combat Expertise (and the rest of that tree). With the proposed system, you miss out on that distinction. Likewise, ability damage. Ray of Enfeeblement does 1d6 STR damage; now it would do 0,1,1,2,2,3 damage. However, even 1 pt of damage is likely to effective right now, as many targets have *even* STR scores; thus a "1" has an effect, and "5" and "6" are both "three-pointers". In the new system, though, "1" has no effect (wasted spell), and only "6" has a "three-point" effect. Plus, 1 STR damage from a Chill Touch stacks with 1 STR damage from poison or another spell, or whatever... in the new system, no partial effects stack.
bruiserdeck 10-24-06, 10:34 AM	I didnt know so many people used stat buy. I have allways used some kind of dice roll for stats. I used the buy systems once and no one liked it so we started over and rolled 4D6 minus low die
starfire311 10-24-06, 11:52 AM	Once again I am assuming the replies are to me, damn I ahte this sort of thread derailing... I see nothing wrong with the OP, and I really don't think my idea warrents a thread. Odd-numbered stats qualify you for feats. STR 12 is +1, but STR 13 gets you Power Attack (and the rest of that tree). DEX 12 is +1, but DEX 13 gets you Dodge (and the rest of that tree). INT 12 is +1, but INT 13 gets you Combat Expertise (and the rest of that tree). With the proposed system, you miss out on that distinction. this is a very minor distinction IMO. Likewise, ability damage. Ray of Enfeeblement does 1d6 STR damage; now it would do 0,1,1,2,2,3 damage. However, even 1 pt of damage is likely to effective right now, as many targets have *even* STR scores; thus a "1" has an effect, and "5" and "6" are both "three-pointers". In the new system, though, "1" has no effect (wasted spell), and only "6" has a "three-point" effect. Plus, 1 STR damage from a Chill Touch stacks with 1 STR damage from poison or another spell, or whatever... in the new system, no partial effects stack. meh, not too big a deal... this can easily be worked with, the only question IMO is changing the system worth it, this is the only reason I really havent done it.
Szatany 10-24-06, 02:02 PM	Likewise, ability damage. Ray of Enfeeblement does 1d6 STR damage; now it would do 0,1,1,2,2,3 damage. However, even 1 pt of damage is likely to effective right now, as many targets have *even* STR scores; thus a "1" has an effect, and "5" and "6" are both "three-pointers". In the new system, though, "1" has no effect (wasted spell), and only "6" has a "three-point" effect. Oooooor, you could just change 1d6 to 1d3 ;)
fatal error 10-24-06, 03:30 PM	Just be aware that all level dependant benefits are being nerfed by this. Save bonuses and spell levels now have effectively half the value they used to have (because their only other contributor, ability modifiers, doubled). Base attack bonus similarly matters less, and weapon enhancements. All armor max dex should be double or you'll be a fool to go with heavy armors if you can get a 14 or more dex. Skill points sky rocket, not necessarily a bad thing in my mind, since a lot only get 2, which sucks, but it's another effect. Things that add ability bonuses become twice as good as other class features: To name just a few off int: Duelist Int to AC, Swashbuckler Int to damage, Warblade int to Ref, Crit Confirm, Damage while flanking, Invisible Blade int to AC. Most turn undead powered feats get better because they usually go off charisma for some part of their effects. Maneuvers such as bull rushes, overruns and trips get bonuses because size bonuses will matter less (assuming you are fighting things your size or larger). Overall, abilities now are twice as important as they used to be compared to level effects, a level 8 rogue with a 14 dex is the same as a level 4 rogue with an 18 dex.
theotherdraxen 10-25-06, 11:32 AM	with a caveat that you are not dead/disabled until -5 Good call. Just be aware that all level dependant benefits are being nerfed by this. Save bonuses and spell levels now have effectively half the value they used to have (because their only other contributor, ability modifiers, doubled). Base attack bonus similarly matters less, and weapon enhancements. All armor max dex should be double or you'll be a fool to go with heavy armors if you can get a 14 or more dex. Skill points sky rocket, not necessarily a bad thing in my mind, since a lot only get 2, which sucks, but it's another effect. It's you, not your equipment (or experience). Things that add ability bonuses become twice as good as other class features: To name just a few off int: Duelist Int to AC, Swashbuckler Int to damage, Warblade int to Ref, Crit Confirm, Damage while flanking, Invisible Blade int to AC. Most turn undead powered feats get better because they usually go off charisma for some part of their effects. Maneuvers such as bull rushes, overruns and trips get bonuses because size bonuses will matter less (assuming you are fighting things your size or larger). Overall, abilities now are twice as important as they used to be compared to level effects, a level 8 rogue with a 14 dex is the same as a level 4 rogue with an 18 dex. This becomes a problem. That's why I'd advise just using solid modifiers, rather than doubling all stats. -5 is the minimum, and most humanoids have a max stat of +4, +5 reserved for incredibly strong orcs and the like.
Jackmojo 10-25-06, 01:19 PM	Good stuff all, thanks for the input (keep it coming if any other thoughts occur). As to armor, yes that would be modified to take this into account (as well as some other modificaitons to make heavy armor more appealing in general). Perhaps some additional insight into my goal is useful, I want to increase the impact of stats and racial modifiers and this seemed an easy way to do it, perhaps I'm incorrect in that though (as mentioned by theotherdraxen I am going for some ammount of you not your gear/level). Jack