Oddities in Prestige Bard, Paladin, and Ranger [Archive] - Wizards Community

Oddities in Prestige Bard, Paladin, and Ranger [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wander
02-18-04, 01:19 PM For some reason, prestige bards gain mass suggestion at 13th level without ever having learned the suggestion ability that the basic bard class gains at 6th level. I wonder if this is deliberate or represents an oversight?

Prestige paladins gain "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" at every odd level, for a total of +8 levels of spellcasting. Rangers gain the same every even level, for a total of +7 levels of spellcasting. In the core books, they follow the same progression, making the difference in the prestige progressions seem odd. Again, deliberate or oversight?

FWIW.
Hengwrt Ellesmere
02-18-04, 06:23 PM I was wondering that too. And it doesn't look like you can get into the bard PrC at 6th level either. Here's what I posted earlier about it:

Ok great; I've got a few things I'm interested in discussing.

First, the Prestige Paladin is perfect. I decided to buy the book as soon as I saw that posted on the WotC boards. I always thought Paladin just screamed PrC, and by requiring characters to already be following the CoC when they take it at level 6, you don't have to worry about people playing one who don't know how (provided you start below level 6).

We ran a few builds on the Future Releases boards and found that the PrC Pally is just as good if not better in almost every area. It also gives players some flexibility in deciding how much warrior and how much spellcaster they want.

Now the Prestige Ranger and Bard are another matter. I'm still undecided about the Ranger, but I've noticed some problems. First, you need several fighter levels to qualify in terms of BAB and feats. This kind of runs against the more roguish ranger that 3.5 gives us, but maybe that's the goal, to satisfy the people who liked the 1st and 2nd ed ranger better. You also need a level of druid, which precludes you from wearing studded leather or a chain shirt. I suppose you could take a level of cleric with the animal domain, as the book suggests, but then your ranger is casting cleric spells rather than druid ones. The suggestion of using the Wilderness Rogue from earlier in the book doesn't work either, because while that gets you the required skills, you still need lots of feats, a high BAB, and the ability to cast 1st level druid spells.

At least you can still get into the Prestige Ranger at 6th level; the Prestige Bard is unattainable until 7th, unless I've made some mistake. Eight ranks in perform is max for a 5th level rogue, and he can't cast the requisite arcane spells. This might work as a 10 level PrC, in which case it should advance in power faster, but I don't see it making 15 levels like the Prestige Paladin.

Now there are plenty of other things that I like about Unearthed Arcana, but this is what I'm having problems with. Am I missing something here?
Evandar_TAybara
02-18-04, 06:36 PM Hengwrt,

Remember that by 3.5 rules, if a skill is a class skill for just one of your classes in a multiclass character, then it is considered a class skill for your character regarding max ranks obtainable. Therefore a rog4/wiz1 can have the prereqs and enter the PrC at level 6.

Evan.
Hengwrt Ellesmere
02-19-04, 03:13 PM Ah I see; thanks for clarifying.

The druid-based ranger's inability to wear studded and chain is still bugging me though. Maybe metal armor just interferes with druid shapechanging abilities. That seems much more logical than the silly oath thing they had going before, and which they ditched partially regarding weapons already. Since a prestige ranger probably isn't going to be shapechanging, he can wear the chain shirt or studded leather and still cast his druid spells.
Xeviat-DM
02-19-04, 05:31 PM In my setting, I've already changed the Ranger to being stuck with the Druid armor restrictions, but I opened their proficiencies up to Light and Medium. Additionally, I removed the bonus feats for the ranger and gave them uncanny dodge instead.

I haven't had the chance to see the PrC Ranger or Bard just yet, my Unearthed Arcana is taking a bit long to get here from Amazon. But be assured, I will do some tweeks to make them work for me.
Hengwrt Ellesmere
02-20-04, 12:58 AM Xeviat, did you change the armor restrictions on your ranger's combat styles to allow for hide armor? Otherwise, rangers are stuck with just leather.
Xeviat-DM
02-20-04, 02:57 AM I removed their free combat feats, and instead gave them trap sense, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge. I don't like other combat classes getting bonus feats, paladins and barbarians dont. Hide armor is allowed, dragon scale and wood armors are allowed too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wander 02-18-04, 01:19 PM	For some reason, prestige bards gain mass suggestion at 13th level without ever having learned the suggestion ability that the basic bard class gains at 6th level. I wonder if this is deliberate or represents an oversight? Prestige paladins gain "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" at every odd level, for a total of +8 levels of spellcasting. Rangers gain the same every even level, for a total of +7 levels of spellcasting. In the core books, they follow the same progression, making the difference in the prestige progressions seem odd. Again, deliberate or oversight? FWIW.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 02-18-04, 06:23 PM	I was wondering that too. And it doesn't look like you can get into the bard PrC at 6th level either. Here's what I posted earlier about it: Ok great; I've got a few things I'm interested in discussing. First, the Prestige Paladin is perfect. I decided to buy the book as soon as I saw that posted on the WotC boards. I always thought Paladin just screamed PrC, and by requiring characters to already be following the CoC when they take it at level 6, you don't have to worry about people playing one who don't know how (provided you start below level 6). We ran a few builds on the Future Releases boards and found that the PrC Pally is just as good if not better in almost every area. It also gives players some flexibility in deciding how much warrior and how much spellcaster they want. Now the Prestige Ranger and Bard are another matter. I'm still undecided about the Ranger, but I've noticed some problems. First, you need several fighter levels to qualify in terms of BAB and feats. This kind of runs against the more roguish ranger that 3.5 gives us, but maybe that's the goal, to satisfy the people who liked the 1st and 2nd ed ranger better. You also need a level of druid, which precludes you from wearing studded leather or a chain shirt. I suppose you could take a level of cleric with the animal domain, as the book suggests, but then your ranger is casting cleric spells rather than druid ones. The suggestion of using the Wilderness Rogue from earlier in the book doesn't work either, because while that gets you the required skills, you still need lots of feats, a high BAB, and the ability to cast 1st level druid spells. At least you can still get into the Prestige Ranger at 6th level; the Prestige Bard is unattainable until 7th, unless I've made some mistake. Eight ranks in perform is max for a 5th level rogue, and he can't cast the requisite arcane spells. This might work as a 10 level PrC, in which case it should advance in power faster, but I don't see it making 15 levels like the Prestige Paladin. Now there are plenty of other things that I like about Unearthed Arcana, but this is what I'm having problems with. Am I missing something here?
Evandar_TAybara 02-18-04, 06:36 PM	Hengwrt, Remember that by 3.5 rules, if a skill is a class skill for just one of your classes in a multiclass character, then it is considered a class skill for your character regarding max ranks obtainable. Therefore a rog4/wiz1 can have the prereqs and enter the PrC at level 6. Evan.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 02-19-04, 03:13 PM	Ah I see; thanks for clarifying. The druid-based ranger's inability to wear studded and chain is still bugging me though. Maybe metal armor just interferes with druid shapechanging abilities. That seems much more logical than the silly oath thing they had going before, and which they ditched partially regarding weapons already. Since a prestige ranger probably isn't going to be shapechanging, he can wear the chain shirt or studded leather and still cast his druid spells.
Xeviat-DM 02-19-04, 05:31 PM	In my setting, I've already changed the Ranger to being stuck with the Druid armor restrictions, but I opened their proficiencies up to Light and Medium. Additionally, I removed the bonus feats for the ranger and gave them uncanny dodge instead. I haven't had the chance to see the PrC Ranger or Bard just yet, my Unearthed Arcana is taking a bit long to get here from Amazon. But be assured, I will do some tweeks to make them work for me.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 02-20-04, 12:58 AM	Xeviat, did you change the armor restrictions on your ranger's combat styles to allow for hide armor? Otherwise, rangers are stuck with just leather.
Xeviat-DM 02-20-04, 02:57 AM	I removed their free combat feats, and instead gave them trap sense, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge. I don't like other combat classes getting bonus feats, paladins and barbarians dont. Hide armor is allowed, dragon scale and wood armors are allowed too.