Of Liches and Player Characters . . . . [Archive] - Wizards Community

Of Liches and Player Characters . . . . [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
058
11-09-06, 10:38 PM Sitting here, musing at my desktop background (a Blackguard, Basilisk, and Lich), I had a thought. It's a very simple question that can probably be answered very simply, and as such this won't be a long post.

Are there any provisions in the D&D ruleset for a player character (presumably a Wizard) to become a Lich?
User5127
11-09-06, 11:47 PM yes, a pc can even advance as one much like the savage species progression.
they also need to make a DC 35 knowledge arcana check (iirc)
and there are some other rules to it as well.
a wizard can't just say, "yep i want to be one" it takes research and ALOT of it.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a
JulesCARV
11-10-06, 12:47 AM The prerequisites for becoming a lich -- or at least crafting the phylactery --can be found in the lich (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersKtoL.html#lich) entry of the SRD, or the MM.

THE LICH’S PHYLACTERY
An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
Lazaro
11-10-06, 04:45 AM Also the Dread Necromancer class from Heros Of Horror becomes a lich at level 20.
058
11-10-06, 07:17 AM Thanks very much. :)
User5127
11-10-06, 08:26 AM but there are also other sources that have more info on liches that explain the process as well. (i'm thinking Libris Mortis, but I'll have to comb through my books again)

basically some where in a book it mentions a DC 35 knowledge check. and at level 11 its possible, but hard to do, wich is why not every wizard and his mother is a lich. its hard to do. plus it opens up role play and plot hooks since the character has to research and hunt down ppl in the know to figure it all out.

the check can be bypassed by some one who already knows how to do it. IE: another lich.
but yea. i'll have to dig up that book sometime..
JulesCARV
11-10-06, 03:22 PM I don't quite get why it would be a knowledge (arcana) check, though. Considering that lichdom is a means to undeath, and undeath is the purview of knowledge (religion), I'd think that either knowledge (religion) would be more appropriate, they would both be useful, or that the type of lich would determine the type of check (i.e., cleric lich requires knowledge (religion), wizard or sorcerer lich requires knowledge (arcana), and hack, maybe druid liches use knowledge (nature) for all I know).
058
11-10-06, 04:40 PM I was unaware that there was any sort of Lich other than that who used to be a Wizard.

It seems perfectly logical to me that it should be an Arcana check, because it's a way to undeath through magical, not divine, means.
Adolph_Kheebler
11-11-06, 01:22 AM However there are cleric liches. I would be fine with house ruling that you can substitute a knowledge religion check of the same dc.

My group house ruled in that warlocks who have imbue item could become liches and I am having an enormous amount of fun playing a lich warlock.

Liches are fine for pc's. I hate those people who are constantly saying that basically anything with a level adjustment more than +2 is unfit for pc's. That is why they have a level adjustment. To make them balanced. DOI!
Draconian_Cloud
11-11-06, 10:26 AM However there are cleric liches. I would be fine with house ruling that you can substitute a knowledge religion check of the same dc.

My group house ruled in that warlocks who have imbue item could become liches and I am having an enormous amount of fun playing a lich warlock.

Liches are fine for pc's. I hate those people who are constantly saying that basically anything with a level adjustment more than +2 is unfit for pc's. That is why they have a level adjustment. To make them balanced. DOI!

I was once a cleric lich in a game ran by my brother he substutied knowledge (religion) for the knowledge (arcane) mutch like what Adolph_Kheebler said in above quote. It was my favorite character I've ever had, ill have to find it and post it on the forums. He's name was Ash Dreadking and worshiped Vecna, from that game on I have been obsessed with liches, MoF has some lich variants you might what to look at, also in the ELH there is a demi-lich template that can be add to any character of a certain lvl that is already a lich. That is my new goal DEMI-LICHDOM for my character if anyone i play with will in a epic game let me play with Ash Dreadking!
Wayside
11-11-06, 11:03 AM *shudder* the demi-lich. A floating skull that will kick your ass. I fought one in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark. Lets just say it took quite liberal use of the respawn button.
JulesCARV
11-11-06, 08:36 PM Well, wizards and sorcerers tend to find lichdom more attractive than most other classes, because d4 to d12 is a lot bigger upgrade for hit dice than d8 to d12.

What I want to play, though, is an assassin lich with practiced spellcaster to boost the assassin caster level up to 11. Finally, a lich character for whom all of those racial bonuses to hide, move silently, listen, spot, and search are useful! I also kinda like the idea of a ranger lich (once again, using practiced spellcaster to get CL 11, at least by level 14).

However, if this "must make DC 35 knowledge (something) check" is true, then I don't see many assassins or rangers being able to do it.
Shinryouga
11-11-06, 10:14 PM Seriously, when you look at it, BARD liches are downright terrifying. Mind effects ahoy! (I'm not joking, a bard lich was one of my all time scariest villains.)

But a quick glance at the lich entry lists 11th spellcaster level. So technically, a warlock is fine because warlock levels count as arcane spellcaster levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats/prestige classes/other. (See section in Complete Arcane, can't remember page number, but its there)

Also, keep in mind that the feat Practiced Caster might apply to reaching that spellcaster level.

Which opens up from the base and completes:

11th level cleric/sorceror/wizard/bard/warlock/wu jen/shujenga/favored soul (or lower with Practiced Caster)

22nd level paladin/ranger (or significantly less with Practiced Caster)

Hexblade is in there somewhere too, can't remember their casting progression. PHBII would bring duskblade and beguiler into the mix as well.

Also, consider that any prestige class with decent spellcasting could help qualify. Arcane Fist/Geomancer/Mystic Theurge/Eldritch Knight/Spellsword/Acolyte of the Skin/Alienist/the list goes on and on.

All good stuff. Also, see Libris Mortis for variant liches, including the good lich, which does have "precedent" in the game from previous editions and settings.
Adolph_Kheebler
11-12-06, 12:09 AM I tell you warlock liches are some of the worst things I've ever seen. Currently to do full damage to me you have to hit me with a magic, bludgeoning, cold iron weapon. The fiendish resilience still works when undead. Warlocks make awesome liches. They really make the use of those two new invocations out of complete mage, crawling hand and crawling eye, more fun in roleplaying.
JulesCARV
11-12-06, 03:11 AM I think that bard liches should lose the ability to perform any music except death metal. This has no mechanical impact, but I think that if you're going to have a horrible skeletal figure strutting around playing music and singing, he'd damn well better be singing death metal and be using a magical lute that adds a lot of distortion.
Endarire
11-12-06, 04:03 AM Not everyone who can be a lich becomes one for three main reasons.
3: Liches may create intraparty conflict. Only the most clever of wizards can sneak lichdom by their similarly-leveled Radiant Servant of Pelor brothers unscathed.
2: It's expensive! 120,000 gold is about double the estimated wealth you're expected to have at ECL11.
1: The level adjustment hurts for a primary caster. Those four levels you used to become a lich are two spell levels, meaning the highest level spell you can cast pre-epic is 8.

-EE
User5127
11-12-06, 10:04 AM In librius mortis there is actually a Goblin Adept Lich..

its kinda funny when you think about it. (or mabye it was a halfling adept, but still a goblin? LOL)

I love liches in all thier forms and flavors, including the demi-lich.
and that is one scary mofo. (BG2: Throne of Bhaal.. scary. and NWN... heh)
Need_A_Life
11-12-06, 04:28 PM Kobold Magewright Demilich.

Had to be said.

Played lich thrice in my current group.
First a normal lich
Then a demi-lich (making liberal use of disguise self and programmed image to appear as a human)
Then a dry lich (using gentle repose to mask the transition to undeath, as I couldn't very well hide my dessicated husk of a body from anyone)
LordBOB777
11-13-06, 02:06 AM well in order to know something about a monster you much makes the approprate check at 15+HD, but since being a lich is a Template im not sure not to handle the check
Clockwork_Apparition
11-13-06, 02:40 AM 2: It's expensive! 120,000 gold is about double the estimated wealth you're expected to have at ECL11.

And think of the new skin-creme expense!

Then a dry lich (using gentle repose to mask the transition to undeath, as I couldn't very well hide my dessicated husk of a body from anyone)

Oh...well I guess that beats Avon Cracked Heel Creme...

...if you're going to have a horrible skeletal figure strutting around playing music and singing, he'd damn well better be singing death metal and be using a magical lute that adds a lot of distortion.

Ahh Ha Ha Ha!!! Would Alienist bards have to play Grafeful Dead, Pink Floyd, or Tool?
User5127
11-16-06, 12:08 AM well in order to know something about a monster you much makes the approprate check at 15+HD, but since being a lich is a Template im not sure not to handle the check

well since liches have to be at least level 11, you could expect the DC to be a min of 26...
but thats to know something about liches. thr process to become one would be different. although RAW says you just need to create a phylactery and your done. thats pretty damn boring for RP value imo though. so yea ^_^
Xeviat-DM
11-17-06, 03:57 AM I once read that the process required "unspeakable evils". This isn't the mature threads, but here's the gist of how I've done it in the past:

The Lich has a 4 level adjustment. I don't allow the template to be taken until 15th level, and the process involves some "close quarters" contact with a level draining undead. The process reduces your level from 15th to 11th, replacing it with the 4 level adjustment, so you don't lose any overall power.

Dirty liches.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
058 11-09-06, 10:38 PM	Sitting here, musing at my desktop background (a Blackguard, Basilisk, and Lich), I had a thought. It's a very simple question that can probably be answered very simply, and as such this won't be a long post. Are there any provisions in the D&D ruleset for a player character (presumably a Wizard) to become a Lich?
User5127 11-09-06, 11:47 PM	yes, a pc can even advance as one much like the savage species progression. they also need to make a DC 35 knowledge arcana check (iirc) and there are some other rules to it as well. a wizard can't just say, "yep i want to be one" it takes research and ALOT of it. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a
JulesCARV 11-10-06, 12:47 AM	The prerequisites for becoming a lich -- or at least crafting the phylactery --can be found in the lich (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersKtoL.html#lich) entry of the SRD, or the MM. THE LICH’S PHYLACTERY An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death. Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
Lazaro 11-10-06, 04:45 AM	Also the Dread Necromancer class from Heros Of Horror becomes a lich at level 20.
058 11-10-06, 07:17 AM	Thanks very much. :)
User5127 11-10-06, 08:26 AM	but there are also other sources that have more info on liches that explain the process as well. (i'm thinking Libris Mortis, but I'll have to comb through my books again) basically some where in a book it mentions a DC 35 knowledge check. and at level 11 its possible, but hard to do, wich is why not every wizard and his mother is a lich. its hard to do. plus it opens up role play and plot hooks since the character has to research and hunt down ppl in the know to figure it all out. the check can be bypassed by some one who already knows how to do it. IE: another lich. but yea. i'll have to dig up that book sometime..
JulesCARV 11-10-06, 03:22 PM	I don't quite get why it would be a knowledge (arcana) check, though. Considering that lichdom is a means to undeath, and undeath is the purview of knowledge (religion), I'd think that either knowledge (religion) would be more appropriate, they would both be useful, or that the type of lich would determine the type of check (i.e., cleric lich requires knowledge (religion), wizard or sorcerer lich requires knowledge (arcana), and hack, maybe druid liches use knowledge (nature) for all I know).
058 11-10-06, 04:40 PM	I was unaware that there was any sort of Lich other than that who used to be a Wizard. It seems perfectly logical to me that it should be an Arcana check, because it's a way to undeath through magical, not divine, means.
Adolph_Kheebler 11-11-06, 01:22 AM	However there are cleric liches. I would be fine with house ruling that you can substitute a knowledge religion check of the same dc. My group house ruled in that warlocks who have imbue item could become liches and I am having an enormous amount of fun playing a lich warlock. Liches are fine for pc's. I hate those people who are constantly saying that basically anything with a level adjustment more than +2 is unfit for pc's. That is why they have a level adjustment. To make them balanced. DOI!
Draconian_Cloud 11-11-06, 10:26 AM	However there are cleric liches. I would be fine with house ruling that you can substitute a knowledge religion check of the same dc. My group house ruled in that warlocks who have imbue item could become liches and I am having an enormous amount of fun playing a lich warlock. Liches are fine for pc's. I hate those people who are constantly saying that basically anything with a level adjustment more than +2 is unfit for pc's. That is why they have a level adjustment. To make them balanced. DOI! I was once a cleric lich in a game ran by my brother he substutied knowledge (religion) for the knowledge (arcane) mutch like what Adolph_Kheebler said in above quote. It was my favorite character I've ever had, ill have to find it and post it on the forums. He's name was Ash Dreadking and worshiped Vecna, from that game on I have been obsessed with liches, MoF has some lich variants you might what to look at, also in the ELH there is a demi-lich template that can be add to any character of a certain lvl that is already a lich. That is my new goal DEMI-LICHDOM for my character if anyone i play with will in a epic game let me play with Ash Dreadking!
Wayside 11-11-06, 11:03 AM	shudder the demi-lich. A floating skull that will kick your ass. I fought one in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark. Lets just say it took quite liberal use of the respawn button.
JulesCARV 11-11-06, 08:36 PM	Well, wizards and sorcerers tend to find lichdom more attractive than most other classes, because d4 to d12 is a lot bigger upgrade for hit dice than d8 to d12. What I want to play, though, is an assassin lich with practiced spellcaster to boost the assassin caster level up to 11. Finally, a lich character for whom all of those racial bonuses to hide, move silently, listen, spot, and search are useful! I also kinda like the idea of a ranger lich (once again, using practiced spellcaster to get CL 11, at least by level 14). However, if this "must make DC 35 knowledge (something) check" is true, then I don't see many assassins or rangers being able to do it.
Shinryouga 11-11-06, 10:14 PM	Seriously, when you look at it, BARD liches are downright terrifying. Mind effects ahoy! (I'm not joking, a bard lich was one of my all time scariest villains.) But a quick glance at the lich entry lists 11th spellcaster level. So technically, a warlock is fine because warlock levels count as arcane spellcaster levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats/prestige classes/other. (See section in Complete Arcane, can't remember page number, but its there) Also, keep in mind that the feat Practiced Caster might apply to reaching that spellcaster level. Which opens up from the base and completes: 11th level cleric/sorceror/wizard/bard/warlock/wu jen/shujenga/favored soul (or lower with Practiced Caster) 22nd level paladin/ranger (or significantly less with Practiced Caster) Hexblade is in there somewhere too, can't remember their casting progression. PHBII would bring duskblade and beguiler into the mix as well. Also, consider that any prestige class with decent spellcasting could help qualify. Arcane Fist/Geomancer/Mystic Theurge/Eldritch Knight/Spellsword/Acolyte of the Skin/Alienist/the list goes on and on. All good stuff. Also, see Libris Mortis for variant liches, including the good lich, which does have "precedent" in the game from previous editions and settings.
Adolph_Kheebler 11-12-06, 12:09 AM	I tell you warlock liches are some of the worst things I've ever seen. Currently to do full damage to me you have to hit me with a magic, bludgeoning, cold iron weapon. The fiendish resilience still works when undead. Warlocks make awesome liches. They really make the use of those two new invocations out of complete mage, crawling hand and crawling eye, more fun in roleplaying.
JulesCARV 11-12-06, 03:11 AM	I think that bard liches should lose the ability to perform any music except death metal. This has no mechanical impact, but I think that if you're going to have a horrible skeletal figure strutting around playing music and singing, he'd damn well better be singing death metal and be using a magical lute that adds a lot of distortion.
Endarire 11-12-06, 04:03 AM	Not everyone who can be a lich becomes one for three main reasons. 3: Liches may create intraparty conflict. Only the most clever of wizards can sneak lichdom by their similarly-leveled Radiant Servant of Pelor brothers unscathed. 2: It's expensive! 120,000 gold is about double the estimated wealth you're expected to have at ECL11. 1: The level adjustment hurts for a primary caster. Those four levels you used to become a lich are two spell levels, meaning the highest level spell you can cast pre-epic is 8. -EE
User5127 11-12-06, 10:04 AM	In librius mortis there is actually a Goblin Adept Lich.. its kinda funny when you think about it. (or mabye it was a halfling adept, but still a goblin? LOL) I love liches in all thier forms and flavors, including the demi-lich. and that is one scary mofo. (BG2: Throne of Bhaal.. scary. and NWN... heh)
Need_A_Life 11-12-06, 04:28 PM	Kobold Magewright Demilich. Had to be said. Played lich thrice in my current group. First a normal lich Then a demi-lich (making liberal use of disguise self and programmed image to appear as a human) Then a dry lich (using gentle repose to mask the transition to undeath, as I couldn't very well hide my dessicated husk of a body from anyone)
LordBOB777 11-13-06, 02:06 AM	well in order to know something about a monster you much makes the approprate check at 15+HD, but since being a lich is a Template im not sure not to handle the check
Clockwork_Apparition 11-13-06, 02:40 AM	2: It's expensive! 120,000 gold is about double the estimated wealth you're expected to have at ECL11. And think of the new skin-creme expense! Then a dry lich (using gentle repose to mask the transition to undeath, as I couldn't very well hide my dessicated husk of a body from anyone) Oh...well I guess that beats Avon Cracked Heel Creme... ...if you're going to have a horrible skeletal figure strutting around playing music and singing, he'd damn well better be singing death metal and be using a magical lute that adds a lot of distortion. Ahh Ha Ha Ha!!! Would Alienist bards have to play Grafeful Dead, Pink Floyd, or Tool?
User5127 11-16-06, 12:08 AM	well in order to know something about a monster you much makes the approprate check at 15+HD, but since being a lich is a Template im not sure not to handle the check well since liches have to be at least level 11, you could expect the DC to be a min of 26... but thats to know something about liches. thr process to become one would be different. although RAW says you just need to create a phylactery and your done. thats pretty damn boring for RP value imo though. so yea ^_^
Xeviat-DM 11-17-06, 03:57 AM	I once read that the process required "unspeakable evils". This isn't the mature threads, but here's the gist of how I've done it in the past: The Lich has a 4 level adjustment. I don't allow the template to be taken until 15th level, and the process involves some "close quarters" contact with a level draining undead. The process reduces your level from 15th to 11th, replacing it with the 4 level adjustment, so you don't lose any overall power. Dirty liches.