Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 09-19-06, 08:03 PM	Yes, I rhymed ... shoot me if you must, but it is pretty important. For some time now, I've been worried that the WP/VP system would become much too deadly at high levels; your average PC has 12 WP, and 12 damage with one attack is very easy to come by (greatsword with an 18 str is 13 damage on average without even enhancing it). All attempts to increase wound points with levels seemed to defeat the purpose of the system, so I never attempted any. But inspiration comes from interesting sources. I'm currently working on a Called Shot system as a community project; I use WP/VP in my games, and the fatigue mechanic works more than enough for me. The system utilizes a Fortitude save to resist suffering a wound from the attack (please don't use this thread to discuss Called Shot systems, that's not the point of this thread). Enough exposition: I realized that a mechanic to reduce wound damage (converting it to Vitality damage instead) with a Fortitude save would retain the feel and theory of the WP/VP system, but make it easier to survive Crits at high levels. Interestingly enough, the mechanic was used for Regenerating characters, and I find it odd that I hadn't thought of it until now. So, what do you think? The mechanic could be as simple as Fort save (DC 15), allowing you to convert 1 wound damage into 1 vitality damage. For every point your check exceeds 15, you convert 1 additional wound damage into 1 vitality damage.
Slapstick 09-20-06, 03:34 AM	I like the idea. I'm not quite experienced enough to gauge how well it would work, but the idea seems neat. But I somehow feel that the DC should go up if the attack roll is very high... I'd probably add a feat that allows you to use your reflex save instead of your fortitude for those dex-fighters and rogues. It doesn't seem to far fetched for me. - Slapstick
Eaglos 09-20-06, 07:38 AM	Sounds ok to me but I see posts coming like "adds complexity" and "too time consuming" ;)
Relic 09-20-06, 08:03 AM	So, what do you think? The mechanic could be as simple as Fort save (DC 15), allowing you to convert 1 wound damage into 1 vitality damage. For every point your check exceeds 15, you convert 1 additional wound damage into 1 vitality damage. There should probably be a stipulation that the wound damage cannot be reduced to 0 (i.e. a minimum of 1 wound damage is always taken). Other than that, I think it is a fairly good idea. I also use a Wound/Vitality system. I give players Wound points equal to the Constitution score plus their base Fortitude save. So a Fighter 20 would have his Consitution score plus +12 (his base Fortitude save). Then throw in a couple feats that increase wound points (such as Toughness) and players can now have enough wound points to survive a fairly strong attack.
Seerow 09-20-06, 09:43 AM	I agree that the save DC should be raised based on the attack roll. Maybe10 or 15+the ammount the attack roll beats your AC by.
FeceMan 09-20-06, 01:30 PM	That was a pretty crappy rhyme. But, good idea, and I agree with the person who said that it can't reduce wound damage to 0.
Slapstick 09-21-06, 03:29 AM	I agree that the save DC should be raised based on the attack roll. Maybe10 or 15+the ammount the attack roll beats your AC by. This makes True Strike a very cool spell if you happen to score a critical hit. Long live keen scimitars and improved critical :) I'd say 15 + the amount the attack roll beats the AC. Harder than just DC 15, but you shouldn't be able to make a good roll at a regular basis imo. - Slapstick
dizfactor 09-22-06, 05:33 AM	For some time now, I've been worried that the WP/VP system would become much too deadly at high levels; your average PC has 12 WP, and 12 damage with one attack is very easy to come by (greatsword with an 18 str is 13 damage on average without even enhancing it). Yep. This is a feature, not a bug. High-level characters can be killed by lower-level creatures with a little luck. No one is totally safe. There's an optional rule in one of the errata and expansions for the SWRPG which is called the "maiming rule." It's something like this: if you get killed by a critical hit, you can make a save or something and only lose a limb. Something like that. Works for SW, because a large number of duels seem to end with someone losing their weapon hand/arm in the movies, but it might also work in D&D.
Slapstick 09-22-06, 07:26 AM	Actually that's not a bad idea. However there should be a chance that the limb getting severed is the head or something like that. How about this? Roll 1d8 1-2 You lose Left/Right Leg 3-4 You lose Left/Right Arm 5-7 Your Torso is slashed/crushed/punctured to pieces - Death 8 Your head is chopped of In any case there should be a high DC to survive the bloodloss from losing a limb, every 10 minutes or so, untill you can get a doc amputate your arm/leg and close up the wound. And of course, a healing spell would close the wound, but not give you your leg back. - Slapstick
Thelon Fairblade 09-22-06, 11:41 AM	Remember that the wound damage only applies on a critical hit. Secondly, doesn't armor AC provide DR against Wound dmaage? Otherwise, I guess it's okay. But the guy with the most Wound points is also the guy witht eh best Fort save... doubles up on the hard-to-kill guy, and leaves the mage still out in the wind.
Xeviat-DM 09-22-06, 01:41 PM	My issue is that creatures often deal in excess of 40 damage a hit at higher levels, and there is no way a warrior is going to have enough WP to survive that. I know that deadly criticals is a feature of the system, but since chances to crit go up with levels as well as damage, there needs to be some resistance to it. As for armor as DR, the DR bonuses rarely exceed 5/-; that's still not enough.
Relic 09-23-06, 05:35 AM	My issue is that creatures often deal in excess of 40 damage a hit at higher levels, and there is no way a warrior is going to have enough WP to survive that. I know that deadly criticals is a feature of the system, but since chances to crit go up with levels as well as damage, there needs to be some resistance to it. As for armor as DR, the DR bonuses rarely exceed 5/-; that's still not enough. You could reduce wound point damage from natural weapons, or even all weapons, by half. Those 40+ damage attacks would turn into 20+ damage attacks. At low levels it would take two or three critical hits to kill someone via wound point damage and at high levels it still might take two, maybe three hits to kill someone via wound point damage. Throw in a couple of feats that can increase the amount of wound points a character can acquire (i.e. the wound point version of Toughness/Improved Toughness), and it would probably balance out pretty good.
DragonBringerX 09-25-06, 12:39 AM	doubt it...besides that kind of defeats the purpose of the wp/vp system. If you use the armor varient in UA, but only apply it to a crit, then you should do pretty good. Another words (4 thoughs who dont get it) Full-plate +8 AC goblin crits you with a knife (rolls a nat 20) he deals 1d4+1 damage, but Fp offers 4/- (but only to WP, NOT VP). sooo, the goblin can only deal damage if he rolls a 4. whadda ya think about that???
Relic 09-25-06, 08:34 AM	doubt it...besides that kind of defeats the purpose of the wp/vp system. If you use the armor varient in UA, but only apply it to a crit, then you should do pretty good. Another words (4 thoughs who dont get it) Full-plate +8 AC goblin crits you with a knife (rolls a nat 20) he deals 1d4+1 damage, but Fp offers 4/- (but only to WP, NOT VP). sooo, the goblin can only deal damage if he rolls a 4. whadda ya think about that??? That's fine for low levels. But what about high levels? Example: When a Greater Stone Golem (CR 16) hits for 45 points of damage. Subtract the 3-4 points for armor damage reduction and you are still dealing with 40+ points of damage. If it is a critical hit, all that goes to wound point damage. Thus, Joe the Fighter with his (around) 18-19 wound points takes 40+ wound point damage from the greater stone golem's one attack.
Xeviat-DM 09-25-06, 12:34 PM	That's fine for low levels. But what about high levels? Example: When a Greater Stone Golem (CR 16) hits for 45 points of damage. Subtract the 3-4 points for armor damage reduction and you are still dealing with 40+ points of damage. If it is a critical hit, all that goes to wound point damage. Thus, Joe the Fighter with his (around) 18-19 wound points takes 40+ wound point damage from the greater stone golem's one attack. Exactly. WP/VP works perfectly at lower levels, or when you're dealing entirely with humanoids or mooks, but even when you deal with the 12th level Barbarian who can deal the better part of 40 damage in a hit, no one's surviving that crit. I want crits to be scary, and the fatigue from being critted helps with that, and I want there to be a chance of dying (which would be seen by failing the save, or not succeeding by enough), but ultimately the system becomes way too deadly (especially when threatened ranges continue to rise).
dizfactor 09-26-06, 04:05 AM	My issue is that creatures often deal in excess of 40 damage a hit at higher levels, and there is no way a warrior is going to have enough WP to survive that. I know that deadly criticals is a feature of the system, but since chances to crit go up with levels as well as damage, there needs to be some resistance to it. Use the action points system, and let them blow an action point and use the bonus dice as a penalty to their roll to confirm the crit. If they're out of action points... well, then, their luck just ran out. As for armor as DR, the DR bonuses rarely exceed 5/-; that's still not enough. Well, you probably should put the magical bonus of magic armor onto DR as well.
Pellanor 09-26-06, 06:42 PM	Hmmm... I like the idea, but this rules seems to put even more emphasis on the Con score and Fort save than there already is. I'm still trying to come up with a mechanic that I like for VP/WP that survives High Levels, but so far I've had no luck. Hmmm... Perhaps you can just convert 1 WP per level per blow into VP damage. That means that a 12th level character is only taking 28 WP damage from the 12th level barbarian's crit. Which is still a lot...
Slapstick 09-27-06, 06:03 AM	The problem is that the amount of damage you can deal gets ridiculous at high levels. I've come to thinking, since HP ordinarily represents both the ability to not get hit, and the ability to survive damage, then there should be some change to the elements that can add to damage. How about this: Magic Weapons: +3 for instance gives a +3 to hit, not damage. Think about it, magic weapons that has an unexplainable way to guide the arm that wields it and pierce damage reduction sounds ok. It doesn't need to almost double the base damage (1d6 mace does 3.5 avg. damage). Flaming, Acid etc. properties should not give any bonus to damage VP (as taking VP damage represents not getting hit), and you could reduce the damage to 1 per dice it should normally do. Change the spell Flaming Weapon and Darkfire to 1 extra damage per 3 or 4 levels, to a maximum of 5. Strength Score: Simply half the bonus damage given from strength. Damage to HP would normally represent the ability to turn lethal blows into not-so-lethal blows, so removing some of the damage would sort of represent that some of the damage that comes from strength normally would be hitting better, not harder. Feats and Threat Ranges: Improved Critical: Adds 1 damage to critical hits Sneak Attacks: Add 1 damage to wound point hits Threat ranges does not exceed 19-20. Instead, if they should exceed that range, add 1 to damage on criticals per point it would exceed the 19-20 range. Power Attack could prove problematic. Perhaps allow one to substract two points to Hit for 1 extra damage. Maybe not. Classes: No Weaponmasters. Action Points: Allow action points to change half of the damage on a critical hit to VP damage Armor: Armor gives half of normal damage reduction on critical hits. Just some ideas, please discuss! :) - Slapstick
Relic 09-27-06, 08:32 AM	Feats and Threat Ranges: Improved Critical: Adds 1 damage to critical hits Sneak Attacks: Add 1 damage to wound point hits Threat ranges does not exceed 19-20. Instead, if they should exceed that range, add 1 to damage on criticals per point it would exceed the 19-20 range. Power Attack could prove problematic. Perhaps allow one to substract two points to Hit for 1 extra damage. Maybe not. I don't know if this is a house rule or not but I don't apply any multiplier for critical hits towards wound point damage (i.e. any critical hit does the base damage and is not multiplied for wound point damage). Any ability that gives extra dice to damage (i.e. sneak attack) adds +1 damage per die for calculating wound point damage. I believe this is already a part of the standard VP/WP rules. Most of the other changes mentioned would be fine. But I would probably find it a lot easier to just reduce all wound point damage by half then trying to implement and keep track of all those changes.
starfire311 09-27-06, 09:24 AM	My issue is that creatures often deal in excess of 40 damage a hit at higher levels, and there is no way a warrior is going to have enough WP to survive that. I know that deadly criticals is a feature of the system, but since chances to crit go up with levels as well as damage, there needs to be some resistance to it. As for armor as DR, the DR bonuses rarely exceed 5/-; that's still not enough. ah see here is where it is different for me... granted I am running a d20 future game, but I let DR from different sources stack. IE DR from natural armor stacks with DR from armor and with regular DR. in my game I have a character that has an AR of 12, NAR of 5, and DR 4/- She stops 21 points for damage from every hit to wounds(oh btw we only allow AR/NAR to stop wound damage), granted we are also high level now, so the enemies are doing significantly more than 20 points of damage per hit.
Bulletproof_Condom 09-27-06, 12:19 PM	Too complexity. It adds time consuming.
FeceMan 09-27-06, 01:49 PM	Too complexity. It adds time consuming. Brilliant.
Thelon Fairblade 09-29-06, 02:13 PM	Your example quotes a CR 16 foe. I would expect the level 16 PCs to have defenses against 40-pt crits by then. But here are some suggestions: Fortification reduces crit damge. So even Light Fortificatoin (25% to block a crit) is worthwhile, because that 40 pt hit just became 30 pt. (Okay, you're still dead, but read on.) Temp HP can apply to WP. False Life for 1d10+5 can give you upto 15 extra wound points. Increases to CON increase your WP. Bear's Endurance = +4 WP! Shield AC applies as DR against WP. (Maybe only if you are fighting defnsively or in total defense.) DONT GET CRITICALLY HIT BY THE GRTR STONE GOLEM!!! :-) Seriously, work on your AC and defenses against things that can kill you with one hit...
starfire311 09-29-06, 02:25 PM	btw I modified fortified rules for my game... hereis teh jist of it. fortification can be bought from levels 1 to level 5 with a corresponding enhancement bonus so, fortification 2 is a +2 enahncement bonus etc. for each level of fortification you get a +4 to your defense vs confirming crits... so fort 1 grants a +4 to your defense when your opponent is trying to confirm a crit, and fort 5 grants a +20 to your defense when your opponent is trying to confirm a crit. but I do like the reducing damage idea... maybe each point of fortification could reduce damage from a crit by 10%(or maybe jsut reduce it by 4 points) and grant a +2 to your defense vs confirming crits. so fort 5 would grant a +10 bonus to defense vs crits, and grant a 50% damage reduction(or maybe reduce the damage by 20 instead)
Pellanor 09-29-06, 05:44 PM	Your example quotes a CR 16 foe. I would expect the level 16 PCs to have defenses against 40-pt crits by then. But here are some suggestions: Fortification reduces crit damge. So even Light Fortificatoin (25% to block a crit) is worthwhile, because that 40 pt hit just became 30 pt. (Okay, you're still dead, but read on.) Temp HP can apply to WP. False Life for 1d10+5 can give you upto 15 extra wound points. Increases to CON increase your WP. Bear's Endurance = +4 WP! Shield AC applies as DR against WP. (Maybe only if you are fighting defnsively or in total defense.) DONT GET CRITICALLY HIT BY THE GRTR STONE GOLEM!!! :-) Seriously, work on your AC and defenses against things that can kill you with one hit... Here's the problem with allowing Temp HP to count as WP. There's a soulmeld in MoI that can give up to 120 temp hp. That's a lot of WP. As for working on your AC so that you can't get critted by the stone golem, that's the same as it is in the current game. If you get your AC high enough, stuff can't hit you. However how many characters in your games have you seen that can't be hit by creatures of equal CR? How much, offensivly, where these characters able to do? Would it really be fun to have a game where everybody needs to be an uber-ac ninja in order to not die? btw I modified fortified rules for my game... hereis teh jist of it. fortification can be bought from levels 1 to level 5 with a corresponding enhancement bonus so, fortification 2 is a +2 enahncement bonus etc. for each level of fortification you get a +4 to your defense vs confirming crits... so fort 1 grants a +4 to your defense when your opponent is trying to confirm a crit, and fort 5 grants a +20 to your defense when your opponent is trying to confirm a crit. but I do like the reducing damage idea... maybe each point of fortification could reduce damage from a crit by 10%(or maybe jsut reduce it by 4 points) and grant a +2 to your defense vs confirming crits. so fort 5 would grant a +10 bonus to defense vs crits, and grant a 50% damage reduction(or maybe reduce the damage by 20 instead) Right, changing the Fortification special ability was something else I was looking at. I like the idea of it boosting your AC for the purposes of confirming a crit, as well as preventing some of the damage. Perhaps instead of flat crit hit DR it converts damage to VP instead of WP. would it be worth a +5 enchantment to your armour to get a +10 bonus to your AC for confirming Crits, and convert 50% of crit WP tamage to VP? Definatly not as powerful as the full Crit immunity that Heavy Fortification currently gives you, but then again, I wouldn't want immunity to Crits in a VP/WP game anyways.
Relic 10-02-06, 01:19 PM	Perhaps instead of flat crit hit DR it converts damage to VP instead of WP. would it be worth a +5 enchantment to your armour to get a +10 bonus to your AC for confirming Crits, and convert 50% of crit WP tamage to VP? Definatly not as powerful as the full Crit immunity that Heavy Fortification currently gives you, but then again, I wouldn't want immunity to Crits in a VP/WP game anyways. Converting damage to VP instead of WP is a temporary bandaid. VPs are a limited resource, just as hit points are. Thus, when VPs are reduced to 0 all damage is going to automatically go to WP. Then you are back into the same situation... at high levels the amount of damage being taken is vastly greater than the number of wound points available. At first glance, I do like the idea of fortification reducing some of the wound point damage. I'd have to give it a bit more scrutinity though as I do not want to use a system that makes fortification a must-have feature just to survive at the higher levels. Another idea is to treat wound point damage as a "save for half" effect. Charactes could roll a Fortitude save to take half wound point damage. The DC could be a myriad of things.... DC 10 + total initial damage, DC 10 + CR of attacking creature, DC 10 + BAB or Caster Level of attacking creature... or any other way you want to calculate the DC.
Red12 10-02-06, 08:49 PM	I don't know if this is a house rule or not but I don't apply any multiplier for critical hits towards wound point damage (i.e. any critical hit does the base damage and is not multiplied for wound point damage). Any ability that gives extra dice to damage (i.e. sneak attack) adds +1 damage per die for calculating wound point damage. I believe this is already a part of the standard VP/WP rules. Yup, crit multipliers dont exsist in this system. If the weapon has a modifier greater than x2, its treat range increases by one step. (x2 = 20, x3 = 19-20, x4=18-20, etc) I dunno about reducing damage to WP. Isnt the point of the system to make things more deadly? I would use something similar to your rule, only I would make it as follows: Fort Save DC: 20, for every point you roll over this, turn one wp into a vp. You can only do this a # of times per day = your X modifier. (I would use wisdom, most would use constitution)
molten_dragon 10-02-06, 10:05 PM	Why not just use the softer criticals variant rule from the DMG?
Relic 10-03-06, 10:07 AM	Why not just use the softer criticals variant rule from the DMG? Most people who use the VP/WP system also use the suggested changes for critical hits that go along with it, mentioned by Red12: If the weapon has a modifier greater than x2, its treat range increases by one step. (x2 = 20, x3 = 19-20, x4=18-20, etc). I keep critical hits the same as the Core rules for damage to VP but I only give base damage to wound points (i.e. nothing is multiplied when calculating wound point damage). This way I don't have to make any changes to effects that influence critical hits (such as the improved critical feat, keen, etc).
JasonOrlandoHawk 10-03-06, 10:57 AM	I am currently running a Star Wars d20 game, and I have had a lot of trouble with the Wounds/Vitality system, and I have found a temporary answer that helps in regards to Star Wars, but will admittedly still have trouble in D&D. Still, I offer it, with some comments, here, so that it may help, if able... In my Star Wars game, Critical Hits auto deal damage to wounds, but, they auto deal the minimum damage possible... For example, if this were D&D, A +2 Longsword wielded by a character w/ 20 Strength deals 8 wound damage on a critical hit. (2 (enhancement) + 5 (Str. bonus) + 1 (Minimum roll for Longsword damage) This keep the damage from becoming absurdly higher, at least versus human (or, in D&D, humanoid) opponents, than the person's wound points would be. When you remember that you have to reach -10 wound points before you die, combat suddenly becomes much safer during critical hits. Of course, I still want to make Critical hits feel like critical hits, so I have instilled a critical hit chart, which I roll on using a d6, as follows: 1: Left Arm, 2: Right Arm, 3: Left Leg, 4: Right Leg, 5: Torso, 6: Head. All critical hits represent trauma to that region of the body. After Damage Reduction is applied, I count how much damage was done. 1 to 5 points is "that's gonna leave a mark" bruising or minor cuts, but no stat penalties. 6-10 points is mild trauma, such as deep, but survivable cuts, eyes swollen shut, maybe a lost finger, or other such injuries, as appropriate. Typically, I call for a save or suffer a -2 penalty to (appropriate) rolls until they recieve healing. 10+ points represents SEVERE trauma. Typically, they must make a save or lose a limb (on 1-4), be bleeding as the wounding weapon description (on 5), or lose an eye (on 6). The save (Fort or Ref as appropriate) DC is 10 + the amount of wound damage dealt after DR is applied. This system has worked very well in my Star Wars game, but there are special LUDICROUSLY HIGH DAMAGE considerations to note in D&D. Now, most humanoids and monstrous humanoids would respond well to these rules. It's the creatures with a base +25 to damage that worry the people here. Granted 3d8 becoming 3 damage plus modifiers will help, but more should be done. My suggestions: 1) People die at Negative Con (note: not negative Con modifier) Wound Points, not Negative 10. (Sorry to all the low con wizards out there. Just don't get hit.) 2) Your armor's enhancement bonus "converts" WP damage to VP damage on a one for one scale, up to the enhancement bonus. (i.e.: +5 armor would convert the first 5 WP you take on a crit, after DR, to VP instead. If you don't have any VP... tough!) 3) Allow for a Toughness feat progression that improves your Wound Points AND offers bonuses on saves to avoid losing a hand, eye, etc... (Powergaming your wound points above 30 before epic levels would probably be too much, but a reasonable increase should be possible.) 4) Spells exist for a reason. I would recommend a series of spells (predominantly, but not exclusively, divine) that aid in surviving wound damage. (i.e.: Divine Endurance Clc 1, duration 1 hour, Conjuration (Healing): While under the effects of this spell, a character automatically converts the first WP taken from a critical hit to Vitality instead.) Higher levels could negate/auto-regen as much as 10 WP per hit. Anyways, these are just my ideas. A few notes on balance, I like the idea of "convert to VP" as a balance more so than "negate the damage" because if someone runs out of VP, then tough luck! However, if it is negate insane amounts of WP, you can beat the last boss 0 VP, and then vainly beat on him for the next 20 rounds before you realize he just negates too much damage. Keep the DR low (I'd say no higher than 10 before Epic Levels), but the ability to convert damage high. Also, I only use the minimum damage rules on Critical hits. If a character runs out of Vitality, the Longsword does regular damage when being applied to thier wounds. Their ability to dodge has run out. In my Star Wars game, this has led to a dramatic improvement in my fight scenes, which have gone from First Crit= over to 2-3 crits to drop the bad guy, along with notable (and memorable) injuries for my PC's. I've had one character lose a leg while fighting the Sith. I've had one character be hospitalized with severe blood loss from multiple blaster wounds. The fight scenes last longer and seem much more real. Anyways, that's my two cents.
Pellanor 10-11-06, 01:52 PM	Converting damage to VP instead of WP is a temporary bandaid. VPs are a limited resource, just as hit points are. Thus, when VPs are reduced to 0 all damage is going to automatically go to WP. Then you are back into the same situation... at high levels the amount of damage being taken is vastly greater than the number of wound points available. At first glance, I do like the idea of fortification reducing some of the wound point damage. I'd have to give it a bit more scrutinity though as I do not want to use a system that makes fortification a must-have feature just to survive at the higher levels. Another idea is to treat wound point damage as a "save for half" effect. Charactes could roll a Fortitude save to take half wound point damage. The DC could be a myriad of things.... DC 10 + total initial damage, DC 10 + CR of attacking creature, DC 10 + BAB or Caster Level of attacking creature... or any other way you want to calculate the DC.Of course it's a temporary bandaid. My goal here is to avoid the "Oh critical hit, you die" scenario. If I have 15 WP and I take a critical hit for 30 damage, then I'm dead. But if 50% of that got converted to VP, then I'm still taking 30 damage, but I'll still be concious (if barely). I do agree that the goal should be to find a way to make it so that Fortification isn't too powerful/necessary at high levels, yet the chance of a one hit kill is greatly reduced. The min damage on dice rolls helps out here. I don't like the idea of making WP something you have to save for. That puts too much emphasis on the fort save for my like. It also makes the a Pious Templar / Paladin incredably hard to hurt (Good fort saves, Mettle and Divine Grace). Allow for a Toughness feat progression that improves your Wound Points AND offers bonuses on saves to avoid losing a hand, eye, etc... (Powergaming your wound points above 30 before epic levels would probably be too much, but a reasonable increase should be possible.)Powergaming your WP above 30 pre epic is a bit much? Perhaps in SW, but that's fairly easy to pull of in DnD. Let's see here. Core Only, Human Rogue, 15 Con (using the standard elite array), toughness taken 12 times, Amulet of Health +6, Wish cast 5 times, all 5 levels into con = 67 WP at level 20. Add in Non-core and you can easily get an extra 20 WP by taking a one level dip into fighter for Improved Toughness. I'm sure if we really tried we could get a pre epic character with more than 100 WP. I'm going to work on a few more ideas. Maybe I'll come up with something that I like.
highbulp 10-12-06, 08:35 PM	I'm in the camp where "crit and die" is actually the point. I like that the dragon can in fact eat you with a single bite. Also, you're imagining an enemy that does 40pts dmg a hit. That means that in normal rules, his crits do 80-120dmg a hit (depending on the weapon used). Which is killing a 10th level Barbarian in one hit (average 6.5+4=10hp a level), and a 20th level rogue with a decent CON in one hit (averager 3.5+2=5hp a level). So really, you're talking about pretty high levels (around 15) when this system starts breaking down. And of course, by that time you're getting spells with save-or-die affects, so why not have a crit-and-die? Not to mention that a lot of the game breaks down (IMO) at higher levels. My point is, I don't think the problem is really that bad. That said, here are the changes I use in my system to avoid the fluke deaths: Full Armor as DR. That means that armor grants DR equal to it's AC bonus, but no AC bonus. So Full Plate gives you DR 8/-, which applies to crits. (I also use a class Defense bonus to help out the lighter-armored guys). Magic armor increases the DR by 1/- per plus. So Full Plate +2 gives DR 10/-. This reduces that 40pt by a pretty significant amount for the tanks. I also let characters drop to -10WP. So that your average character (10CON = 10WP) can take a 20pt hit without instantly dying (of course, they need attention IMMEDIATELY to not go down further). Thus in order to survive a 40pt crit without any armor, you only need 20CON, which is pretty reasonable for a high-CON, high-level character (Bear's Endurance makes this really reasy to get). So yeah, the 40pt crit will down you, but it won't instantly kill your character--you can survive. And if you're dealing with something that does 40pt. hits, you are scared (as well you should be)!
Neofish 10-13-06, 06:00 AM	I just started using something for my current campaign. In which, I use the Armor as Dr viariant (and class defense bonuses), but I also have ruled something that I call armor points (which equal the the original AC bonus x5). I ruled that when a character recieves Wp damage, he is allowed to make a reflex save (DC 10), if the save succeeds, he converts 1 point of WP damge into armor point damage instead for each point his save went over the DC of 10. This represents how much punishment the armor takes covering your hide from lethal blows. Just thought i'd share an idea.
Stev Beren 10-13-06, 08:27 AM	If you use "Action points/plot points/whatever burning one to make a critical NOT a critical woudl seem allright by me. Or, on any hit that woudl take someone into negative wound points they get to make a save to stay at ONE wound point. SOme sorts of penalties and or bonuses coudl apply. . bah, don;'t want to try to think otu all the little parts myself right now,.
Xeviat-DM 10-13-06, 11:34 PM	Even when someone is dealing 20 damage a hit, they're going to take out most characters with a crit; their crit's only 40 to 80 damage in the current game. I guess you have a point, now that I think about it. 40 to 80 damage is still a lot, and will take people out pretty quickly. I'll probably stick with my Fort save to resist death, with unlimited negative HP, mechanic to increase survivability.
Pellanor 10-27-06, 12:30 PM	Lvl / CR | Wiz HP | Barb HP | Wiz WP | Barb WP | HP Crit | WP Crit | Wiz HP % | Barb HP % | Wiz WP % | Barb WP % | Wiz % Diff | Barb % Diff 4 19 51 14 22 17 8.5 89% 33% 61% 39% 68% 116% 5 24 63 14 23 28 14 117% 44% 100% 61% 86% 137% 7 40 93 16 27 34 17 85% 37% 106% 63% 125% 172% 10 66 140 18 32 40 20 61% 29% 111% 63% 183% 219% 13 99 220 20 39 48 24 48% 22% 120% 62% 248% 282% 15 114 253 20 41 50 25 44% 20% 125% 61% 285% 309% 18 136 302 20 44 50 25 37% 17% 125% 57% 340% 343% 20 151 355 20 48 64 32 42% 18% 160% 67% 378% 370% Okay, the above table is a comparison of what % of the character's HP / WP is lost due to an attack from a critical hit of a Red Dragon(Bite Attack) of CR equal to their level. Both Wizard and Barb have a 14 Con to start. The Barbarian takes Improved Toughness as a feat. The barbarian also boosts his Con by 1 at 8th level and again at 12th level. Both characters purchase an amulet of health +2 at 6th level, +4 at 10th and +6 at 13th. The barbarian is Raging. These were chosen based on a character in the WP system wanting as many WP as possible. I'm using the standard elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 18) with the 2nd best stat for these two characters going into Con. A class that Suffers from MAD will likely have lower WP. Also the Amulets of Health were purchased as soon as the standard character wealth was greter or equal to 3x the cost of one. As you can see, outside of the first two (4th and 5th) levels of Wizard, the WP blow always deals more than the HP blow. As the characters level increases, so does the difference in the severity of a critical hit. By the time the characters are 20th level a critical hit is almost four times more devestating when WP is dealt.
starfire311 10-27-06, 03:58 PM	Lvl / CR | Wiz HP | Barb HP | Wiz WP | Barb WP | HP Crit | WP Crit | Wiz HP % | Barb HP % | Wiz WP % | Barb WP % | Wiz % Diff | Barb % Diff 4 19 51 14 22 17 8.5 89% 33% 61% 39% 68% 116% 5 24 63 14 23 28 14 117% 44% 100% 61% 86% 137% 7 40 93 16 27 34 17 85% 37% 106% 63% 125% 172% 10 66 140 18 32 40 20 61% 29% 111% 63% 183% 219% 13 99 220 20 39 48 24 48% 22% 120% 62% 248% 282% 15 114 253 20 41 50 25 44% 20% 125% 61% 285% 309% 18 136 302 20 44 50 25 37% 17% 125% 57% 340% 343% 20 151 355 20 48 64 32 42% 18% 160% 67% 378% 370% Okay, the above table is a comparison of what % of the character's HP / WP is lost due to an attack from a critical hit of a Red Dragon(Bite Attack) of CR equal to their level. Both Wizard and Barb have a 14 Con to start. The Barbarian takes Improved Toughness as a feat. The barbarian also boosts his Con by 1 at 8th level and again at 12th level. Both characters purchase an amulet of health +2 at 6th level, +4 at 10th and +6 at 13th. The barbarian is Raging. These were chosen based on a character in the WP system wanting as many WP as possible. I'm using the standard elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 18) with the 2nd best stat for these two characters going into Con. A class that Suffers from MAD will likely have lower WP. Also the Amulets of Health were purchased as soon as the standard character wealth was greter or equal to 3x the cost of one. As you can see, outside of the first two (4th and 5th) levels of Wizard, the WP blow always deals more than the HP blow. As the characters level increases, so does the difference in the severity of a critical hit. By the time the characters are 20th level a critical hit is almost four times more devestating when WP is dealt. you did forget that in most WP system armor will provide DR, you are also not taking into account that perhaps the barbarian has already taken say 300 damage from the dragon before the crit comes. There are other variables that make it not as dangerous as it does in your example... however, WP/VP is supposed to be more dangerous than standard and there is always supposed to be that fear that you can be taken out at any time.
Pellanor 10-27-06, 04:20 PM	you did forget that in most WP system armor will provide DR, you are also not taking into account that perhaps the barbarian has already taken say 300 damage from the dragon before the crit comes. There are other variables that make it not as dangerous as it does in your example... however, WP/VP is supposed to be more dangerous than standard and there is always supposed to be that fear that you can be taken out at any time.In the WP system from UA, Criticals automatically bypass DR, so that doesn't matter. As for the # of HP taken before the Crit happens, yes that can be a factor. Hmmm... I think I may have a slightly different idea of what I would use the VP system for than most people. Maybe I'll create my own topic angled that way.
highbulp 10-27-06, 06:56 PM	As you can see, outside of the first two (4th and 5th) levels of Wizard, the WP blow always deals more than the HP blow. As the characters level increases, so does the difference in the severity of a critical hit. By the time the characters are 20th level a critical hit is almost four times more devestating when WP is dealt. This is a good analysis of the effects of a critical hit. However, it does ignore the other half of the wound/vitality system, which is vitality. Sure these crits hurt a lot (around 200-400% more hurt, as you point out). But vitality doesn't hurt as much, because it heals much faster. So without critical hits (so 90% of the time), the characters are actually going to be able to survive longer because they regain vitality so much faster. Indeed, in the WP/VP system, barring critical hits the characters can take even MORE damage, because they get effectively their HP in vitality, plus their CON in wound. So your barbarian there can take an extra 50 points of damage, unless some of it comes from a critical hit. I'd be interested to see a table that compares the systems keeping track of total survivability--wound and vitality vs. HP.
starfire311 10-27-06, 07:40 PM	In the WP system from UA, Criticals automatically bypass DR, so that doesn't matter. As for the # of HP taken before the Crit happens, yes that can be a factor. Hmmm... I think I may have a slightly different idea of what I would use the VP system for than most people. Maybe I'll create my own topic angled that way. There are too many WP/VP variants running around. Yeah we dont do that, we play that armor provides DR to WP on crits, I forgot that the UA variant says crits ignore armor.
Pellanor 10-31-06, 12:14 PM	This is a good analysis of the effects of a critical hit. However, it does ignore the other half of the wound/vitality system, which is vitality. Sure these crits hurt a lot (around 200-400% more hurt, as you point out). But vitality doesn't hurt as much, because it heals much faster. So without critical hits (so 90% of the time), the characters are actually going to be able to survive longer because they regain vitality so much faster. Indeed, in the WP/VP system, barring critical hits the characters can take even MORE damage, because they get effectively their HP in vitality, plus their CON in wound. So your barbarian there can take an extra 50 points of damage, unless some of it comes from a critical hit. I'd be interested to see a table that compares the systems keeping track of total survivability--wound and vitality vs. HP.That is true, if a crit is never scored against a character, then the VP/WP system actually strengthens them. However, like naything based on luck, that hurts the PCs more than the NPCs. If there's only a 3% chance of scoring a Crit per attack, and it takes an average of 10 attacks to drop a monster (random number), then against each monster there's only a 30% chance of it getting one hit killed. However each PC will face so many attacks that eventually they're guaranteed to get hit by a lucky one hit crit. Heck, at just a 1% chance of instagibbing a PC per attack, after 1000 attacks there's a 99.95% chance that the PC has be one-hitted at least once. Also how much faster does VP really heal? Magically it's healed no faster than HP. It's only when resting that it heals faster. And if decent level PCs have time to rest, then they'll all be able to get to max HP anyways. As for a Table being put together to compare the survivability of characters using VP compare to HP, that would be extremely difficult to do accurately. You would have to put together a number of controlled environments (aka adventures) and have the same group of people go through the same adventure a fair number of times, alternating between using VP and HP. You would then have to compare these results against those gathered by a number of other groups running through the adventure. You would then need to run through a number of different adventures to ensure that the adventure itself didn't somehow favour one system over the other. And of course the party would have to be identical for all adventures. Actually you should probably repeat each adventure a number of times with different parties too. Though if there were some people willing to put that much effort into it, that is something I would like to see :)