Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bubba333 01-08-05, 06:22 PM	I was curious as to how you might handle a low-level character getting lucky and killing somebody instantly. Bear in mind that I use the VP/WP Variant. For example if a character snuck up and slit a victim's throat (pretty much instant death), how would that work? Even on a critical the damage might not be enough to exceed the target's WP. If it's a Rogue doing the sneaky-slitting, that could work (Sneak Attack bonus and all), but otherwise the target could survive. I realize that much of what happens to a target is based upon damage (for example, if you kill with one hit you can describe how it happened), however that leaves high level characters "immune" to possible death by a 1st-lvl Bard with a dagger (even said Bard should have the opportunity to strike a killing-blow, no matter how slight).
jimmyjames 01-08-05, 06:37 PM	My group as also adopted the WP/VP system as well.. but we did not alter the critical damage codes as suggested in the UA. Criticals and the damage multipler are applied directly to the wound points. This very much allows for the possibility of a dangerous and potentially lethal "lucky hit". Factor in the "fatigued" and "stun" that comes along with wound damage, and that "lucky hit" may just end your career... However, on the "slit the throat" topic, we have looked at allowing a player to make a coup-de-grace against a target that is unaware. In essence, if someone has managed to sneak up behind you and you are completely unaware of thier presence, you are pretty much "helpless" against thier pending attack. The coup-de-grace action adequately represents the lethality situation, and its a "ready for use" game mechanic and combat action. Just my 2 cents...
Reinhardt_Wyrd 01-08-05, 06:38 PM	You know, slitting somone's throat doesn't have to be as easy as in movies. 1. You have to be really close (closer than you would have to be to strike normally) and that makes things harder (silent moves checks and less time) 2. not only armour (and heavier armours can have armoured neck area) can be a problem, sometimes even a lowly scarf might get in the way. 3. Somebody who is attacked this way has more time to react (not much but always) than one stabbed directly in the back. 4. Simply wounding somebodie's neck doesn't kill him just like that. You have to cut jugular vein (and even then, there would be a possibilty that he wouldn't die instantly, but few rounds later because of blood loss) and precise cut (when you don't see the target and have to act quickly cause even minor intervention of the victim can skrew you attack) is hard, especially for somebody relatively unskilled (1lvl). Rogues would be better at cutting throats than bards - thus sneak attack bonus. 5. This game is built on balance so giving anybody with hide and sneak skill possibility of coup de grace would unbalance things a lot.* * Of course, since I pretty much can't imagine playing a character without these skills (or at least invisibilty) I would be very happy if such rule was introduced :D
Razoreface 01-08-05, 06:57 PM	Things like that are DM perogative, there isn't any rules for it because there shouldn't be. No matter how high level someone is, even if they're level 30 with 34 Con and 500hp, if they're dead drunk asleep, a dagger will kill them fast enough that it's effectively instant, provided the dagger gets a really good shove and sideways rip (instant isn't really possible unless you're doing real significant brain trauma, and even then it's not quite instant). When the DM says it happens, but it shouldn't really be possible to do a thing like that in a real fight.
Bubba333 01-08-05, 08:10 PM	When I refer to "instant death" I'm suggesting that there is no chance of living, such as when a dagger tears your throat open. I think I'll try having critical multipliers apply and that a coup de crace attack can be made to a completely oblivious target. It's also of note that I've changed how AP work to a HUGE degree. For one, I call them Fortune Points instead and they work very differently from the standard AP system. In combat a FP can be spent a few different ways; one FP allows an automatic hit or to turn a miss into a hit. If you hit, you can turn it into an automatic critical by spending a FP. So, if you've got two FP to spend in a round, you can automatically hit a target with a critical (one FP to hit and another to make it a critical). On the reverse, if you're hit you can turn it into a miss with a FP and if it's a critical, you can downgrade it to a normal hit with a FP. As with the above, if you have the ability to spend more than one FP, you can turn a critical into a miss by spending two FP. That IS powerful...I realize that...however when my players were rolling to hit and the spending AP and STILL missing, that seemed to anti-heroic. Also know that I allow for major villians to have as many FP as the PCs and all the PCs are gestalt characters (as well as major villians). It's worked very well so far and hasn't been bad at all. For skills rolls I'm still figuring out how to make FP work, but what I have so far is that spending an FP gives you and automatic 20 on a roll (I might downgrade this to 10). Again, this is powerful and takes some of the risk away, however I feel that pulp character should have a big edge and do amazing things. To me, adding 1-6 to a roll isn't that edge. The reason I've changed this is to allow for amazing feats at very low levels and it works well. The one thing I do ask is that the players give a cool description of how that FP is making things so easy, such as how they narrowly escaped that deadly blow from the blackguard's double-axe! Of course, a few Feats and Class Abilities are made "useless" by this system, but I changed those as well. For Action Boost I allow a 15% percentile roll to retain the FP (so 1-10 on d100 keeps the FP). For the Extreme Action ability of the Extreme Explorer you get a 25% chance to retain the point. If a 5th-lvl Extreme Explorer has that Feat the percent chance rises to 40% (I see a 5th-lvl Extreme Explorer with Action Boost as a very fortunate person!). These percentages may change and haven't been tested. I know that's WAY OT from what I originally posted, but I think it's relevant to the "instant kill" discussion. You may freak and flame now. :D
Ranger REG 01-08-05, 10:00 PM	My group as also adopted the WP/VP system as well.. but we did not alter the critical damage codes as suggested in the UA. Criticals and the damage multipler are applied directly to the wound points. This very much allows for the possibility of a dangerous and potentially lethal "lucky hit". Factor in the "fatigued" and "stun" that comes along with wound damage, and that "lucky hit" may just end your career... Wow. That's overkill. :eek:
Bubba333 01-09-05, 04:45 AM	I have a quirky question: How do you all describe what happens when you're hit for VP damage?
Razoreface 01-09-05, 06:02 AM	Every group I was ever in that tried describing combat actions would give it up within three sessions, because it's irritating. :) VP hits are attacks that were so close that they took some quick reaction from the character to not actually get hit by it, and it wears them out. That's basically what SWd20 describes it as. WP hits are the only attacks that truly hit and hurt a character.
foolkiller_rj 01-09-05, 12:59 PM	In my campaign, we introduced a feat called 'deadly strike' that has a ranged counterpart called 'deadly shot'. They both have BAB of +8 as a prereq (among others) and what they do is that as a full action a character can have single strike/shot that auto threatens. Also, we have redone the sneak attack ability so that instead of adding bonus damage, it automatically threatens a critical. At higher levels it gives gives maximum damage, auto-confirms the critical and even increases the critical multiplier. We use generic classes, by the way, so every class ability is reproduced as a feat or series of feats. So, if you have Sneak attack, Improved Sneak Attack, Greater Sneak Attack and Supreme Sneak attack, you can strike a guy for three times your maximum weapon damage (or four times if the weapon has a x3 crit), which is usually enough to take out even a 3 or 4 HD sentry in one hit. For special effect I'd call that slitting a guys throat. Also, we have the 'Silencing Attack' feat under sneak attack (I think it was a ninja class ability from Complete Warrior) so that any sneak attack prevents the target form making sounds for one round. Also handy for taking out sentries. I realize that this doesn't fully work with a WP/VP system, but maybe it will be helpful to you anyway.
JTalbain 01-09-05, 06:50 PM	I think that Silencing Attack was an ability from the Ninja of the Crescent Moon from the Sword and Fist splatbook in 3.0. I've toyed with the idea of making it a feat myself. As for the kill in one hit rule, I don't think it really has any place in D&D beyond groups using the VP/WP system, and then very seldom. Honestly though, if a guy is dead drunk, and someone has them totally helpless to kill them, if you think they should die, just rule they die. Don't even bother rolling. If you want a variation though for more lethal D&D, try allowing things to do Con damage. That's how they explain damage from blood loss now, and there's more than a few people screaming about how overpowered Wounding is now. If you understand the rules enough, you can come up with special rulings for almost any situation. In the above example, where the lvl1 bard comes in and stabs the drunk lvl 30 fighter in the throat, apply whatever penalties and damages seem appropriate. Do the coup de grace damage ((1d4+Str mod)x2), rule the fighter is unable to talk until the damage is healed, and give a certain amount of damage directly to the fighter's con for the blood loss. If you rule he does 4 damage to the fighter's con, that's 60 extra effective damage. Or you could rule that the bleeding doesn't stop, and he loses an additional 1 Con per round until he receives healing. Whatever seems appropriate according to how mortal you want your characters to be. All the same, keep in mind that the D&D world is a world of high fantasy in any setting, and that possible instant death at any level may be a bit much.
IceFractal 01-10-05, 01:53 PM	I'm not so sure that a level 30, 24 Con character would be killed by some 1st level mook slitting their throat while asleep. At 34 Con, maybe as a result of the hundreds of battles they've fought their skin is toughened to an almost armored hardness, maybe they've died and come back some many times that they can cling to life in the face of what seems like a mortal wound. Being level 30, maybe their reflexes and combat skill are so perfect that even before the knife touches their throat they've woken up and rolled to the side, maybe they've learned to control their bleeding through concentration and the wound only phases them. Maybe they're just uncannily lucky, or have the favor of the gods, or whatever. It would seem odd, to me, if a regular knife to the throat did kill them.
Bubba333 01-10-05, 04:03 PM	30th-lvl? Yes, at that level you can probably bathe in dragon fire, so a 1st-lvl weenie more than likely wouldn't be able to slit your throat easily. However what I'm referring to is non-epic.
Razoreface 01-10-05, 09:19 PM	I'm not so sure that a level 30, 24 Con character would be killed by some 1st level mook slitting their throat while asleep. At 34 Con, maybe as a result of the hundreds of battles they've fought their skin is toughened to an almost armored hardness What kind of skin have you been looking at? Even hard cancerous skin still cuts with a sharp knife. Skin that's that tough would get it DR or an AC bonus.. which you can get with feats. If they don't have those feats... Being level 30, maybe their reflexes and combat skill are so perfect that even before the knife touches their throat they've woken up and rolled to the side Outside my point.. the kill has nothing to do with his hearing, only with the physical properties of his physiology. I'm talking about the physical insertion of a large sharp object into the CNS and largest blood flow area of a person. maybe they've learned to control their bleeding through concentration ummmm... riiiiiiiiiiiighto It would seem odd, to me, if a regular knife to the throat did kill them. Why? They're still a person... it doesn't matter what level they are, because that's an abstract mechanic. I'm fully aware that d20 mechanics support all kinds of retarded indestructability, but this whole thread has nothing at all to do with the d20 rules, because what's being discussed isn't in the rules. Besides.. I didn't say anything about what level the other guy is. Just one guy, asleep, with a knife in his face.
JTalbain 01-18-05, 11:52 PM	Can you honestly say that you think there is a single person on earth that's a level 30 ANYTHING? That right there should tell you that the definition of a lvl 30 Barbarian with Con 24 falls outside the scope of reality. No, they're not just a human being any more, they are a demigod. You try to kill them, and they butcher you. Stop. You're dead.
starfire311 01-19-05, 09:08 AM	Can you honestly say that you think there is a single person on earth that's a level 30 ANYTHING? That right there should tell you that the definition of a lvl 30 Barbarian with Con 24 falls outside the scope of reality. No, they're not just a human being any more, they are a demigod. You try to kill them, and they butcher you. Stop. You're dead. And still D&D allows for the minute possiblity to kill that high of a level person in their sleep... not even a level xxx character is immune to a knife in the throt in D&D, hence the coup de grace mechanic. Granted they may only have a 5% chance of dieing from some one trying tp slit their throat, but there is still a chance. But here is the flaw in the game IMO... if you are going to coup de grace some one use a scythe or a great axe. Assuming a strength of 14 for the attacker a Dagger would be a max DC of 22 while a scythe would be 44 and a great axe would be 45. I don't know if these weapons would generally allow you to strike a sleeping person with the same precision of a dagger.
Bubba333 01-19-05, 09:23 AM	There is a level of common sense that needs to be accounted for. If you drop an axe on a sleeping person's neck while they're sleeping in no armor, they're dead...period. Some could say it puts too much power in the hands of the DM. To them I say, "the blacksmith turns into a platinum dragon and eats you!". Seriously, when should a players worry about this happening to their PC? They shouldn't. And if THEY do it to some NPC it shouldn't be a big deal as any major villian shouldn't be taken by surprise like that (if they are then they aren't worth the title "Major Villian"). Still, it's the during combat type of scenarios that I'm trying to address, such as the whole "sneaking up behind the guard and slitting his throat" mechanic. Allowing for a coup de grace when a person's flat-footed seems the best option (making the "Death Blow" Feat VERY nasty now! Especially with all the sneak attack bonuses and the VP/WP system). :eek: (Damn that's a sweet emoticon!)
Razoreface 01-19-05, 12:36 PM	Still, it's the during combat type of scenarios that I'm trying to address, such as the whole "sneaking up behind the guard and slitting his throat" mechanic. Allowing for a coup de grace when a person's flat-footed seems the best option (making the "Death Blow" Feat VERY nasty now! Especially with all the sneak attack bonuses and the VP/WP system). A lot of the more liberal GM's I know do something like that... not in actual combat, where initiative has come up yet, but when a person is completely unaware of anything dangerous. :eek: (Damn that's a sweet emoticon!) :coolcthul And if I really wanted to try, I can think of a historical personality who could easily justify being an epic level, and who died from something stupid. But then it'd be trying to shoehorn real people into a falsely rigid level system. :) And there are canon characters 30+ who aren't gods.
JTalbain 01-23-05, 05:41 PM	Historical personalities easily justified as epic? such as?
starfire311 01-24-05, 08:59 AM	Historical personalities easily justified as epic? such as? I can think of tons, Merlin was prolly epic, as was Joan of Arc, Jesus, King Arthur, Hercules, Achilles, Santa Claus he has to be epic to know if you've been bad or good, and Hiawatha. These are about all I can think of right now, but come one these are important historical figures, and they are epic. I bet we have some Epic peole today, like Arnold Schwarzenegger(he has killed aliens, rescued his daughter liberated, a planet and he has even been a robot), Superman is epic too, and I bet if you want to look at even a long time ago, I think that Luke, vader and Yoda should all ahve been epic. So, we have tons of historical Epic figures. Would you like me to name more?
Razoreface 01-24-05, 08:54 PM	Well, fictional references aside, thanks. ;) If you really can't think of anyone historically who would qualify as epic, you just aren't thinking hard enough. Sure, they might be mostly creatures of legend, but Merlin, Arthur, Achillies, Joan, those people, and dozens more like them did exist, and they did things far beyond the ability of even the best that regular people could do. Heck, some people could make convincing arguements that people like Elvis and Hitler were epic. They changed the world.
JTalbain 01-25-05, 03:53 AM	You don't have to be high level to change the world. I've seen quite a few write-ups for the Lord of the Rings characters in various systems, but they all seem to have one thing in common: Frodo was level 1.
Expanded Psion 01-25-05, 11:07 AM	ummmm... riiiiiiiiiiiighto So swimming upstream a waterfall or walking on clouds is fine but controlling your blood flow isn't?And mind you some people can do this in real life...fakir ascetics for example.But anyways its an extreme.Oh and massive neural trauma can be survived (yes even bullets in the brain). And about the Axe-on-your-neck...read BoVD at execution methods.It is a coup-de-grace if you fail your Proffesion (Execution) check.There are some Epic characters that will survive and be pretty ****** off that an axe in stuck on their throat. But in all accounts in a VP/WP system a coup-de-grace strikes WP instead of VP...still some Epic will survive.
the_one_true_shea 01-25-05, 03:25 PM	With all this refrence to coup de grace, particularly regarding a "one-hit-kill", the CDG does have a fortitude save... or die. Thats how that works "in the rules". If you have a chance to pull the move off there is ALWAYS a chance that a coup de grace will kill its target. If you are extraordinarily concerned with the idea that the character SHOULD die in any given situation, push the DC of the Fort save up higher than 10+damage dealt. ummm, just curious... am I the only one who remembered this before posting on this thread?
Razoreface 01-25-05, 08:42 PM	So swimming upstream a waterfall or walking on clouds is fine but controlling your blood flow isn't? Find me someone who can do that without a supernatural, magical, or extraordinary ability. Get me a fighter who can do that. There's also precedent in D&D anyway. A monk can't automatically stop a wounding effect on himself. Wounding is massive blood flow, similar to what would happen when at least one of the two most active arteries in your body are severed. And about the Axe-on-your-neck...read BoVD at execution methods.It is a coup-de-grace if you fail your Proffesion (Execution) check. BoVD suffers from a fatal flaw; It's published by WotC, which means that artificial game balance interferes with anything resembling reality. It's also action packed with dumb things, like average damage from a weapon being a bonus to intimidate when you use it to interrogate someone. But in all accounts in a VP/WP system a coup-de-grace strikes WP instead of VP...still some Epic will survive. Only because VP/WP doesn't have crit multipliers.. it's standard damage direct to WP, which is equal to Con. An epic wizard is still going to have a pretty brief but very bad day when he catches a crit from a guy with a greatsword who just put 10 into power attack, unless he's a freaky 30 Con wizard. You don't have to be high level to change the world. I've seen quite a few write-ups for the Lord of the Rings characters in various systems, but they all seem to have one thing in common: Frodo was level 1. When they started, sure. Anyone who tells you that Frodo and Sam walked out of Mordor with nineteen fingers between them at level 1 has got something in the way of his brain. A lot of people are generally bound and determined to take any character from any movie, book, or game, no matter how utterly heroic they are, and make them possible in d20 at level four or five. It's just a bad thing to try and do.
GoodTeletubby 01-29-05, 09:20 PM	Find me someone who can do that without a supernatural, magical, or extraordinary ability. Get me a fighter who can do that. There's also precedent in D&D anyway. A monk can't automatically stop a wounding effect on himself. Wounding is massive blood flow, similar to what would happen when at least one of the two most active arteries in your body are severed. anyone with enough ranks in balance or swim can do that with absoloutely nothing else let's see, up a waterfall, DC 80, so let's say level 30, so 33 ranks, +3 skill focus +2 athletic, +4 skill artistry (exemplar, CV), +10 epic skill focus= +52, take 10 from exemplar, so 62, a + 15 item of swim isn't even epic, all 22500 gp of it, so 77, and all you need is a strength of 16 to swim up a waterfall, or at level 40, you need 26 str, which shouldn't be hard to come by, and you don't even need the item any more now that's specialized just for that purpose, and none of those are drastically unavailable. and Swim doens't even have a synergy bonus. toss the bonuses from tumble onto balance, and you shouldn't have a problem hitting the 120 DC for walking on clouds.
Power of the Horde 02-06-05, 07:22 PM	BoVD suffers from a fatal flaw; It's published by WotC, which means that artificial game balance interferes with anything resembling reality. Reality? Botched executions weren't uncommon in the real world. Lots of professional executioners sometimes had to try twice - or even more often.
Razoreface 02-06-05, 10:39 PM	Which doesn't have much to do with my point.. artificial game balance skewing rules. :) Besides, the result of a "failed" execution is more than likely still going to kill, which is unlike reality. Failing a DC 18 profession check.. you CdG. 1d12 plus all the bonuses, which is going to include some kind of power attack, x3, and a nifty old save or die. It would take a very weak executioner making some very poor rolls to have someone survive.
Nomad4life 02-06-05, 11:06 PM	I have a quirky question: How do you all describe what happens when you're hit for VP damage? Well, that’s the joy of the whole system. An agile character may have spun out of the way. A skilled character may have parried the blow. A hulking badarse may have just taken the blow and shrugged it off. The “how” of it is based on the character concept. The “what” of it is just that the character has avoided X amount of damage. A true work of art, that system.
JTalbain 02-10-05, 12:56 PM	I still kinda have a problem with hhow the multipliers (or lack thereof) function for converting D&D into a VP/WP system. I really just don't think it's very compatible. Flaming/Shocking/Icy burst are totally altered; Finesse fighters with Rapiers of Wounding and Improved Critical become gods in combat; Greataxes, Picks, Scythes and the like are neutered; etc. Really, D&D is supposed to be a heroic, high-fantasy game. The reason why characters survive things a normal person shouldn't be able to is because they're not real people. And really, that matches up more with a lot of the mythology upon which D&D draws. Most mythological characters didn't just dance out of the way of everything (please ignore the recent release of Troy :rolleyes: ), they were badass enough to take the hits and keep on coming.
Ricky 02-10-05, 02:10 PM	There is a level of common sense that needs to be accounted for. If you drop an axe on a sleeping person's neck while they're sleeping in no armor, they're dead...period. I think I've identified the trouble you're having, because it is a problem that I used to have as well. This does not match "common sense", as you put it, because your (and my) common sense has not encountered people like this. Our common sense has encountered farmers and lawyers and police officers, and we know that if you drop an axe on any of these people's heads, they're dead...period. I completely agree with you here, and so does the D&D game. This is pretty much the case with the commoners in D&D. A lvl3 commoner has probably 10 HP and Fort of +2, so any CdG will almost certainly kill them. However, the same thing is not true with the heroes in D&D. Why? Heroes are simply superhuman. For instance, a high-level fighter may have Con 24. A "normal" human cannot have Con above 18, so the fighter has passed beyond the realm of regular humanity, and also beyond our experience. We can no longer apply our common sense to this fighter, because he is outside what we know. The same thing applies for having Int 26, or 200 HP, or casting 8th level spells. These people are capable of actions and abilities that we the players simply cannot understand. Therefore, we must not try to apply common sense to them, because our common sense is insufficient.