Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neofish 10-19-06, 08:19 AM	I have have recently used this variant for a single game (a test run, great Players). It seemed to work out fine, most characters die before all their armor points are exhausted, so it's not a complete addition to WP, but anyway, I was wondering what people think about the idea. It's meant ot be used with the Vitality/ Wound Point system. Please tell me what you think, and yes, I know that some of the Armor and DR combined values are higher than their PHB AC counterparts, that was an older house rule. Armor as DR and Armor Points: Armor functions a little different in this variant. The armor bonus to AC is cut in half (rounded down), the other half is converted to Damage Reduction. Armor provides additional protection in the form of Armor points, which essentially function as additional wound points. The ammount of armor points a suit of armor has is equal to 5x the original armor bonus of a suit of armor. If a character is wearing armor, then the armor worn will help to take the brunt of attacks that would normally kill a person outright. Meaning, whenever a character would take wound point damage from a melee or ranged attack, After applying damage reduction, a character must make a reflex save (DC 10). If the save is successful, the character converts one point of wound point damage into armor point damage for each point the character's check result beats the DC (example, Tordek is wearing scale mail. He is stuck for 10 points of wound point damage, he rolls for the reflex save, scoring a 14 on the roll, beating the DC of the save by 4, thus converting 4 wound points suffered in armor point damage). Armor cannot absorb more damage than it has armor point (example, if Tordek's scale mail only had 3 armor points left and he rolled high enough to convert 4 wound points into armor point damage, he would only be able to 3 points to armor damage and the excess point would be dealt to wound points). Once worn Armor is reduced to 0 armor points, it is horribly damage and will no longer provide an armor bonus to AC, nor damage reduction. Armor is completely destroyed and cannot be repaired when reduced to 0 armor points, though it can be slavaged to help forge a new set (you reduced the craft cost by 25% when forging a new set of armor of the same type being salvaged). In addition, Armor's armor check penalty also subtracts from a character's Defense Bonus, to represent the restraint of movement in armor. If a character isn't profiecient in the Catagory of armor he is wearing, he loses all of his Defense Bonus while wearing armor. The following Chart displays the new Armor Bonus, Armor Damage Reduction, and Armor Points of the PHB armor, nothing else is changed. Armor Type..............Armor Bonus......Armor DR......Armor Points. Light Armor: Padded..........................+0...... .............1/-.................5 Leather..........................+1..... ..............1/-.................10 Studded Leather.............+1.................. .2/-.................15 Chain Shirt.....................+2............ .......2/-.................20 Medium Armor: Hide...............................+1... ................2/-.................15 Scale Mail.......................+2........... ........2/-.................20 Chain Mail.......................+2........... ........3/-.................25 Brestplate.......................+3..... ..............3/-.................30 Heavy Armor: Banded Mail....................+3.............. .....3/-..................30 Splint Mail......................+3............ ........4/-.................35 Half- Plate......................+4........... .........4/-..................40 Full Plate........................+4......... ...........5/-..................45 Enchanting Armor: Enhancing armor adds 1 point to its damage reduction and grants the armor an additional 10 armor points. The armor is harder to destroy and more resistant to damage, but the chance to completely deflect a blow remains the same.
RocketMasterScan 10-19-06, 09:45 AM	Making Reflex saves that often may slow the games fighting down too much, but that's up to you and your players. However, I do like what you're trying to do with the armor breaking thing, I think it should be worn down over time with out having to sunder it.
Kursk 10-19-06, 11:36 AM	I guess it's okay. For balance purposes you need to penalize spell casters too. Otherwise fighter types get screwed.
RobbyPants 10-19-06, 03:21 PM	...I do like what you're trying to do with the armor breaking thing, I think it should be worn down over time with out having to sunder it. From what I understand (and I could be wrong), the actual definition of sunder only allows weapons and shields as targets. Not that I'm against sundering armor. I was toying with a system where I would assign all armors HP and toughness. Any hit on the player would apply the same damage to their armor (- the hardness, of course). Once it broke, it would continue to encumber them, but give no (or mabye half) AC bonus. The only problem is it seems to be too much bookkeeping... Neofish: I've never ran/played a game with the Wound/Vitality system, but your solution could be fun.
rydi123 10-19-06, 04:22 PM	reflex save slows the game down Armor hp increases the hp of low level characters by a huge amount. the armor will likely have more hp than they do. also, keeping track of the damage can be a pain. system as a whole kind of complex, and will likely slow the game down, especially as characters get more attacks. how dow mages/monks etc handle the lack of armor? in this system armor is almost mandatory at low levels, as the increase in survivability is huge, and enemy orks will likely tear the armoless players apart.
Neofish 10-20-06, 01:57 AM	how dow mages/monks etc handle the lack of armor? in this system armor is almost mandatory at low levels, as the increase in survivability is huge, and enemy orks will likely tear the armoless players apart. Any type of Energy attack negates not only DR (like the standard rules for spells) but also negates armor points to. Basically, a fireball flash fries a guy, preventing him the chance (reflex save) of his armor taking a brunt of the attack. Also, a single reflex save doesn't really drag combat down to much, and we use a single sheet of paper to keep track of armor points, a few -4 here and thee isn't to bad. Also, isn't an orc being able to shred an unarmored mage how is should be anyway? Armor points give a strong reason for a party to include a melee type to fend off other melee types. All of this of course is just my opinion though. Anyway, thank you to everyone who has contributed so far.
Eaglos 10-20-06, 08:25 AM	It looks ok. I would slow your game down only if you through in lots of encounters. Otherwise it would be just fine.
OneSidedDice 10-20-06, 04:34 PM	Once worn Armor is reduced to 0 armor points, it is horribly damage and will no longer provide an armor bonus to AC, nor damage reduction. Once I started getting low on armor points, I'd just voluntarily fail the Reflex saves to keep the DR and defense bonus intact, e.g. not try to use the armor to absorb blows, or whatever this Reflex save is supposed to represent. Why is it a Reflex save, anyway? Why is a bard, monk, or rogue better at using his armor to absorb a blow than a fighter, paladin, or cleric, whose job it arguably is to stand there in a tin can and get beaten on all day? In addition, Armor's armor check penalty also subtracts from a character's Defense Bonus, to represent the restraint of movement in armor. If a character isn't profiecient in the Catagory of armor he is wearing, he loses all of his Defense Bonus while wearing armor. So putting on a suit of ordinary full plate reduces your defense by two? +4 for the armor bonus, -6 from the armor check penalty? I think it's kind of an interesting idea, but it seems like it penalizes the characters it's intended to help. Anyone who's likely to buckle on heavy armor that offers the most armor points is also likely to have a very poor Reflex save, which means they're not going to be able to take very much advantage at all of the new rule. The fact that heavy armor actually offers a defense penalty is just ridiculous. What about a tower shield? Does a character take a -10 to AC for carrying one? I think it's really not a benefit at all, even for high Ref save characters who can take advantage of the rule frequently. Those characters tend to be lightly armored, which means they'll be able to shrug off a few extra points of damage, and then their armor breaks, rendering them totally defenseless in future combats.
Neofish 10-20-06, 10:30 PM	Once I started getting low on armor points, I'd just voluntarily fail the Reflex saves to keep the DR and defense bonus intact, e.g. not try to use the armor to absorb blows, or whatever this Reflex save is supposed to represent. That was the point, players get really ****** it seems when there armor gets tanked, I used to have it where armor needed -10 Ap to be rendered useless, maybe i'll swaped it back. Why is it a Reflex save, anyway? Why is a bard, monk, or rogue better at using his armor to absorb a blow than a fighter, paladin, or cleric, whose job it arguably is to stand there in a tin can and get beaten on all day? I used to a Reflex save so that a fighter can't stand there and use all of the AP before taking a singel wound point of damage, Ap helps a melee type alot, but not so much as to completely make him unstopable. Also, reflex seem to fit the idea of twisting and deflecing blows with armor than a fortitude save, though I guess it could be argued that fortitude would be better because it could represent a fighter just taking a shot right in the breastplate and shrugging it off. So putting on a suit of ordinary full plate reduces your defense by two? +4 for the armor bonus, -6 from the armor check penalty? Where would you get that? 4-6= -2, your easier to hit, but you have DR and a ton of extra wound points. I think it's kind of an interesting idea, but it seems like it penalizes the characters it's intended to help. Anyone who's likely to buckle on heavy armor that offers the most armor points is also likely to have a very poor Reflex save, which means they're not going to be able to take very much advantage at all of the new rule. The fact that heavy armor actually offers a defense penalty is just ridiculous. Noted. What about a tower shield? Does a character take a -10 to AC for carrying one? I guess I could have stated that better, Only worn Armor's, not shields, reduce your defense bonus. I think it's really not a benefit at all, even for high Ref save characters who can take advantage of the rule frequently. Those characters tend to be lightly armored, which means they'll be able to shrug off a few extra points of damage, and then their armor breaks, rendering them totally defenseless in future combats. I few points of damage can mean the difference between life and death, although it comes at a cost. In addition, a fighter now does have to fear a critical hit from a troll or ogre, because he may be able to shrug off most that Wp damage into AP damage, thus it reduces the chance of a one hit kill under the WP/VP system. But I do agree that perhaps Fortitude should be used rather than Reflex as a save.
OneSidedDice 10-21-06, 02:04 AM	I don't think a Fortitude save is really appropriate, either, although I'd agree it's better than a Ref save, since it makes characters that actually have armor proficiency with heavier armors more likely to be able to actually enjoy some benefit from this AP system. Ideally it should be some kind of check involving base attack, to represent a character's expertise at combat--the more skilled in combat a character is, the more likely he is to be able to bring his armor to bear to deflect a blow. I'm not completely familiar with the way the WP/VP system works in D&D, but if it's like the Star Wars one, the character has WP = Con score, and he only starts taking WP damage once his VP are exhausted, or when a critical hit lands on him. Since only damage to WP is considered to actually cause significant wounds to a character, DR from armor only applies to WP damage. Assuming it works roughly the same way with the D&D variant, your armor rules are penalizing a heavily armored character all the time for a benefit that applies only part of the time. The fact that you're not using a total armor as DR system--that is, armor provides an AC bonus and a DR value--means that you recognize the fact that putting a bunch of metal between you and whatever's angry at you makes you harder to hit. But if you apply the ACP as a penalty to the character's AC, putting any suit of medium or heavy armor on makes you easier to hit. In fact, under your system, leather armor is the only armor that actually increases a character's AC. Padded just doesn't provide a bonus, and studded leather, hide, and chain shirt provide an AC bonus equal to their ACP, which zeroes them out. Don't you find it unusual that, except for one suit of armor, the best armor does for you is not give you a penalty to AC? There's one suit of armor that makes you harder to hit, four that don't affect your AC one way or the other, and the remaining seven suits of armor make it easier for enemies to land damaging hits on you. Why? Heavy armor is rendered pretty much worthless. Let's take a look at Bob the Fighter, who decides he wants to purchase a set of full plate, the best heavy armor around. He's got that heavy armor proficiency, so he may as well use it, right? So, Bob plunks down his 1500 GP and purchases a suit of full plate. Let's say that Bob has 12 Dex, optimum for someone who wants to wear full plate, since it has a max Dex bonus of +1. Bob's AC is now 9, assuming he doesn't like shields and doesn't have any magic items that boost his AC. Base 10, +1 for his Dex brings him to 11, +4 for the full plate brings him to 15, -6 for the armor check penalty brings him to 9. This system is going to break down rapidly. Armor is a deathtrap. What you're doing is creating a game in which armor serves the purpose opposite what it was designed for. The highest AC an armored character could achieve, without shields or magic, is 18, and that's a 22 Dex halfling in leather armor, optimized for its max Dex bonus (+1 armor bonus +6 Dex +1 size). I suppose you could bring that up to 20 if the same halfling were wearing a mithral chain shirt. Power attack is even more powerful than it already is. Two-handed fighters can drain most of their base attack away without fear of ever missing, because the best heavy armor will give a character AC 9. Attack bonuses are going to outstrip ACs so fast it'll make your head spin, and that's just for classed enemies. Monstrous enemies frequently have enormous attack bonuses that can easily hit heavily armored PCs even using core rules. Fighters are going to see their VP diminish incredibly quickly. It's going to be almost impossible to miss an armored character, due to the fact that somehow strapping armor on makes it easier to damage you. I shudder to think what will happen to a rogue or bard who thinks wearing armor is a good idea. Your PCs are going to be down to their WP incredibly fast, and their armor won't protect them enough to keep them alive. It's stlll just as easy to hit the character, which means power attack is just as good an option. Even the 5 DR from full plate won't keep you safe from something that's using a two-handed weapon with power attack. Armor points? Sure, maybe those will kick in occasionally, but it becomes so easy to deal high damage totals to armored PCs that even DR and a good armor roll aren't going to save a character. Let's assume that our friend Bob is a 3rd-level fighter with 16 Con, pretty healthy. He's got his awesome AC of 9, and he's fighting a 3rd-level half-orc barbarian who likes power attack and his greatsword, a lot. Bob is down to his WP. Let's also assume you decide to change armor rolls to work off a Fort save. Bob's AC is 9, and his Fort save is +6. Let's say his half-orc opponent has a Str of 20 while raging, which isn't that high--14 base, +2 racial, +4 rage. Assuming the barbarian drains all his BAB away, he hits at +5 for his Strength and deals 2d6+7+6, or 2d6+13 damage. An average of 20 damage per hit. He only misses Bob on a 1, 2, or 3, because Bob's AC is 9. I think we can assume that Bob is going to get hit. He's guaranteed to take 15 points of damage--that puts him one hit point away from death, and Bob is a pretty healthy guy. But wait! He can make an armor roll! If he rolls a 10, he'll deflect another 6 points of damage, reducing the damage he takes to 9--still more than half his WP. If Bob gets lucky and rolls, say, a 15--pretty high--he'll deflect 16 points of damage, and take the remaining four. That's still a quarter of his WP gone in one swing. And there's really just no way out for Bob if there's a spellcaster around, because his armor's DR and AP won't help him against a magic missile or a scorching ray. Okay. That got long. But I think you can see that you will probably need to make a lot of changes in order for this to be a system that doesn't create a world where running into combat naked swinging a two-handed weapon wildly doesn't become the norm.
Neofish 10-21-06, 08:56 AM	I don't think a Fortitude save is really appropriate, either, although I'd agree it's better than a Ref save, since it makes characters that actually have armor proficiency with heavier armors more likely to be able to actually enjoy some benefit from this AP system. Ideally it should be some kind of check involving base attack, to represent a character's expertise at combat--the more skilled in combat a character is, the more likely he is to be able to bring his armor to bear to deflect a blow. It seems to simple now, excellent point, this is why I wanted to share so that fine ideas, like this, could help me flatten out the kinks of the system. I'm not completely familiar with the way the WP/VP system works in D&D, but if it's like the Star Wars one, the character has WP = Con score, and he only starts taking WP damage once his VP are exhausted, or when a critical hit lands on him. Since only damage to WP is considered to actually cause significant wounds to a character, DR from armor only applies to WP damage. It functions almost exactly like the Star Ones system, save that DR also reduces VP damage aswell (it represents armor taking the punch out of the enemies attack, thus allowing to remain in combat longer) The fact that you're not using a total armor as DR system--that is, armor provides an AC bonus and a DR value--means that you recognize the fact that putting a bunch of metal between you and whatever's angry at you makes you harder to hit. Of course, there is always the chance that armor will completely deflect a incoming attack. But if you apply the ACP as a penalty to the character's AC, putting any suit of medium or heavy armor on makes you easier to hit. In fact, under your system, leather armor is the only armor that actually increases a character's AC. Padded just doesn't provide a bonus, and studded leather, hide, and chain shirt provide an AC bonus equal to their ACP, which zeroes them out. Don't you find it unusual that, except for one suit of armor, the best armor does for you is not give you a penalty to AC? There's one suit of armor that makes you harder to hit, four that don't affect your AC one way or the other, and the remaining seven suits of armor make it easier for enemies to land damaging hits on you. Why? I guess I should have mentioned that I am using the Star Wars class Defense Bonus system, and that applying the ACP to your AC woun't have the tremendious impact that you are assuming, it basically swaps out your calss Defense Bonus for DR and AP. But I can still see what you mean, perhaps I should implement some form of Max defense bonus on armor? I just wanted to represent the lack of mobility in armor. Okay. That got long. But I think you can see that you will probably need to make a lot of changes in order for this to be a system that doesn't create a world where running into combat naked swinging a two-handed weapon wildly doesn't become the norm. The length of the post is irrelavant, you have brought up alot (I mean alot) of valid arguments against what now can be seen as a flawed system, i'll post an ammended variant later today, thank you for the detailed analysis and your constructive criticism.
Neofish 10-21-06, 10:12 AM	Alright, how's this. Armor functions a little different in this variant. The armor bonus to AC is cut in half (rounded down), the other half is converted to Damage Reduction. Armor provides additional protection in the form of Armor points, which essentially function as additional wound points. The ammount of armor points a suit of armor has is equal to 5x the original armor bonus of a suit of armor. If a character is wearing armor, then the armor worn will help to take the brunt of attacks that would normally kill a person outright. Meaning, whenever a character would take wound point damage from a melee or ranged attack, After applying damage reduction, a character must make an Armor Save (roll 1d20 + your BAB+ your Deterity Modifier), against a DC of 10. If the save is successful, the character converts one point of wound point damage into armor point damage for each point the character's check result beats the DC (example, Tordek is wearing scale mail. He is stuck for 10 points of wound point damage, he rolls his Armor Save, scoring a 14 on the roll, beating the DC of the save by 4, thus converting 4 wound points suffered in armor point damage). Armor cannot absorb more damage than it has armor point (example, if Tordek's scale mail only had 3 armor points left and he rolled high enough to convert 4 wound points into armor point damage, he would only be able to convert 3 points to armor damage and the excess point would be dealt to wound points). Once worn Armor is reduced to 0 armor points, it is horribly damage and will no longer provide an armor bonus to AC, nor damage reduction. Armor is completely destroyed and cannot be repaired when reduced to -10 armor points, though it can be slavaged to help forge a new set (you reduced the craft cost by 25% when forging a new set of armor of the same type being salvaged).
OneSidedDice 10-21-06, 01:15 PM	But I can still see what you mean, perhaps I should implement some form of Max defense bonus on armor? I just wanted to represent the lack of mobility in armor. An armor's max Dex bonus and speed reduction already represent the restrictiveness of the armor. There's no reason to punish armored characters twice. Even if you do use class-based defense bonuses, reducing a character's AC for wearing armor seems backward. There's no reason an item intended to protect a character should make him easier to damage. A defense bonus also doesn't necessarily mean the character is dodging every attack. It could be a number of things, from parrying to stepping inside the enemy's guard, motions that are still completely possible and relatively unhindered by heavy armor. Not every miss requires the character to have made a Matrix-style dodge to avoid it. The fact that you apply the armor's DR to every hit, not just WP damage, kind of changes things. Clearly that means the armor is being struck by every blow, even if the character does not sustain meaningful damage from it, because otherwise how can the character claim the DR if the armor isn't being hit? So...why do armor points only kick in when a character is down to his WP? It seems odd to say, "Well, now that you're getting hit, too, your armor is also sustaining damage." Why isn't armor damaged for taking a beating while the character is still in his VP? Whether the character is in his WP or his VP, the armor is struck the same amount, and provides the same amount of DR. Why does it only provide that additional benefit to the character when the character's WP are being damaged? That reasoning is why I have an issue with this: Once worn Armor is reduced to 0 armor points, it is horribly damage and will no longer provide an armor bonus to AC, nor damage reduction. Armor is completely destroyed and cannot be repaired when reduced to -10 armor points, though it can be slavaged to help forge a new set (you reduced the craft cost by 25% when forging a new set of armor of the same type being salvaged). Okay, so as long as a character is taking VP damage, he can walk down a hall of ogre barbarians provoking AoOs and his armor will hold up perfectly. Let's say one of those ogres crits him with a scythe or something, and deals a massive amount of damage. The armor is gone then? Why is it only in danger of breaking if the character is taking WP damage? Also, the armor being completely destroyed seems pretty harsh. I'd be pretty cranky if my suit of magical armor broke for doing its job. Actually, I take that back. I've just realized that armor can't ever break. Armor cannot absorb more damage than it has armor point (example, if Tordek's scale mail only had 3 armor points left and he rolled high enough to convert 4 wound points into armor point damage, he would only be able to convert 3 points to armor damage and the excess point would be dealt to wound points). Once a suit of armor is down to 0 AP, it stops providing any benefit. You can't reduce it to -10 AP, because once it hits 0 AP, you can't spend AP to reduce wound damage. What about a system like this? At any time when a character is struck by a melee or ranged attack, but before damage is announced, he can opt to employ his armor to reduce the attack's damage. The character increases the DR provided by his armor by an amount equal to his base attack bonus + his Dexterity bonus, limited by the maximum Dexterity bonus of the armor he is wearing. Any damage reduced in this fashion above and beyond the armor's normal DR value is subtracted from the armor's armor points. If the armor does not have enough armor points remaining to absorb the damage, apply the remainder to the character. When a suit of armor is reduced to 0 armor points, halve the normal armor bonus and DR it provides (rounding down, minimum of -1 to AC bonus and DR). Additionally, the armor check penalty is increased by -2. I think this would work pretty well. There's no distinction between WP and VP now, so a character doesn't have to wait until he's in mortal danger before his armor starts really kicking in, even though it's been taking a beating the whole combat. Limiting the Dex to the max Dex of the armor brings in that mobility factor you wanted to include. Making it a flat bonus eliminates the need to roll every time a character is struck. It also reduces the pretty harsh penalties for hitting 0 AP. I think the penalties are still significant enough to make characters think twice about using AP when their armor is low, but reasonable enough that the armor still provides some benefit. Hope that helped!
rydi123 10-21-06, 03:22 PM	The character increases the DR provided by his armor by an amount equal to his base attack bonus + his Dexterity bonus, limited by the maximum Dexterity bonus of the armor he is wearing. doesnt that make heavy armor worse protection than light armor?
OneSidedDice 10-21-06, 03:42 PM	doesnt that make heavy armor worse protection than light armor? When you approach the max Dex bonus of light armor, yes, it would. Neofish seemed to like the idea of armor limiting movement, so I included the restriction in my revision. It could just as easily be removed. This might not be a very large concern, since light armor only offers a higher level of DR when damage is taken on AP. Light armor has significantly smaller AP values, so even though leather armor can provide up to 6 points of DR from Dex, it only has 10 AP. Also, it provides significantly lower AC and DR values when its AP aren't being used, so it's not like wearing light armor to get the additional benefit from Dex is a no-brainer choice.
Neofish 10-21-06, 03:48 PM	[QUOTE]So...why do armor points only kick in when a character is down to his WP? Simplicity, that's all. It seems odd to say, "Well, now that you're getting hit, too, your armor is also sustaining damage." Why isn't armor damaged for taking a beating while the character is still in his VP? Same reason a Character can take round after round of punishment before he is unable to move fast enough to evade or shrug off serious damage. I was thinking along that lines that when a change can no longer dodge/ parry attacks (0 Vps) he simple can move and is unable to utilize his armor in a deflextive manner and instad the armor is taking striaght impacts rather than glancing blows. Whether the character is in his WP or his VP, the armor is struck the same amount, and provides the same amount of DR. Why does it only provide that additional benefit to the character when the character's WP are being damaged? This is also somewhat different, it's one thing to take a wild swing, its another to be stabbed in the heart. I was thinking that when a crit arises, Ap is there to represent the the armor taking the main force of a fatal attack against your vital areas, so an attack against your kidney would have to punch through your breastplate, meaning what could have be something dire may only be a minor injury, it still hurts like hell (WP damage) but your alive. That reasoning is why I have an issue with this: Its always good to have various opinions on the matter. Okay, so as long as a character is taking VP damage, he can walk down a hall of ogre barbarians provoking AoOs and his armor will hold up perfectly. Let's say one of those ogres crits him with a scythe or something, and deals a massive amount of damage. The armor is gone then? Why is it only in danger of breaking if the character is taking WP damage? Because that scythe didn't glace off, it hit home and actually did some damage, punching a hole in it, cutting off leather straps as it slices a shoulder and the like. It represents not only a character being in mortal danger, but his armor being chewed through in order to put him in said predicament. Also, the armor being completely destroyed seems pretty harsh. I'd be pretty cranky if my suit of magical armor broke for doing its job. Yeah already touched up on that matter, when it was a reflex save, it was rare that armor would be completely hacked through. If the BAB roll was implemented, the armor would be destroyed at -10 Ap, like my older system. Actually, I take that back. I've just realized that armor can't ever break. Once a suit of armor is down to 0 AP, it stops providing any benefit. You can't reduce it to -10 AP, because once it hits 0 AP, you can't spend AP to reduce wound damage. Yup, under hte older system that was so. But it isn't cheap to have armor repaired (takes the regular PHB rules on reparing armor) or mending spell (which only repairs a single point) or a make whole spell (which I ruled repairs 1d6 points/level) I was also thinking that perhaps the repair spells that are mainly used for constructs could be used to repair armor. What about a system like this? At any time when a character is struck by a melee or ranged attack, but before damage is announced, he can opt to employ his armor to reduce the attack's damage. The character increases the DR provided by his armor by an amount equal to his base attack bonus + his Dexterity bonus, limited by the maximum Dexterity bonus of the armor he is wearing. Any damage reduced in this fashion above and beyond the armor's normal DR value is subtracted from the armor's armor points. If the armor does not have enough armor points remaining to absorb the damage, apply the remainder to the character. When a suit of armor is reduced to 0 armor points, halve the normal armor bonus and DR it provides (rounding down, minimum of -1 to AC bonus and DR). Additionally, the armor check penalty is increased by -2. That's not a bad idea at all, a character would only be wrecking his armor against heavy hitters or when he was on the verge of death, I like it. I think this would work pretty well. There's no distinction between WP and VP now, so a character doesn't have to wait until he's in mortal danger before his armor starts really kicking in, even though it's been taking a beating the whole combat. Limiting the Dex to the max Dex of the armor brings in that mobility factor you wanted to include. Making it a flat bonus eliminates the need to roll every time a character is struck. It also reduces the pretty harsh penalties for hitting 0 AP. I think the penalties are still significant enough to make characters think twice about using AP when their armor is low, but reasonable enough that the armor still provides some benefit. I'd knock the Max Dex on this one thought, because it would mean that light armor will be able to grant bigger boosts than heavy, which would be rather odd. Hope that helped! Yeah, i'll give it a shot indeed, it seems far more streamlined than what I had initially thought up. Thanks again for yours and everyone elses help.
Pellanor 10-31-06, 01:05 PM	First off, I must say that I like the idea you have here. Second, I like the last suggestion that OneSidedDice made best, and that's what I'll be working from. I do have to ask, why are you calculating a separate value for the AP of armour? Why not just use the armour's HP? Also, do you have any intention of taking the Armour's Hardness into account here? A suit of Adamentine Fullplate shouldn't be taking notable damage from most attacks, even when you use it in this manner. At the same time, giving a PC the effective Hardness of 10 (scale mail) at first level isn't very balanced. Another thing worth noting. Critical Hits bypass DR. If we are simply increasing the DR that the armour provides then this will provide no bonus vs critical hits (the whole reason I liked this system in the first place). Personally I would add a clause that, against critical hits, this DR instead converts that many WP into VP. So if I took a critical hit for 15 damage, and only had 10 WP, I could use this to instead take 15 VP.
Neofish 11-01-06, 07:33 PM	First off, i'm glad someone posted on this thread again, I have been trying out OneSidedDice's idea I find it doesn't really help. First off, I must say that I like the idea you have here. Second, I like the last suggestion that OneSidedDice made best, and that's what I'll be working from. I don't like no that i've tried it, it's to ineffective, a 1st level fighter can use his Ap to negate 1 point off an incoming attack, that's not going to do what I had intentionally wanted the Ap system to do, which is to prevent an instant death due to WP damage. I do have to ask, why are you calculating a separate value for the AP of armour? Why not just use the armour's HP? Ap is the armor's Hp, just under a different name so as to prevent confusion, but I guess I have done the latter. Also, do you have any intention of taking the Armour's Hardness into account here? A suit of Adamentine Fullplate shouldn't be taking notable damage from most attacks, even when you use it in this manner. At the same time, giving a PC the effective Hardness of 10 (scale mail) at first level isn't very balanced. Under this variant, armor's hardness is replaced with DR, so adamantine fullplate would have a DR of 7, aswells as increased Ap (because adamantine has more Hp per point of AC in the core 3.5) So, in short, no, no hardness is taken into account I suppose, I feel that would lead to an excessive ammount of bookkeeping and realy slow the game down. Also, if hardness comes into play, then Armor would take no damage at lower levels at all. As per your example, scail mail has a hardness of 10, which means (under OneSideds suggestion) that even a 9th level fighter could reduce his attacks by an additional 9 points of damage wihtout any loss to his AP, not a good idea IMO. Another thing worth noting. Critical Hits bypass DR. Yeah, personally, I wave that, getting struck in the neck doesn't mean your skin is any less thick (nat arm). If we are simply increasing the DR that the armour provides then this will provide no bonus vs critical hits (the whole reason I liked this system in the first place). This was the main idea and reason I made the variant in hte first place. if Ap's are just treated as a kind of addition to Wp's like I had, then you don't have to wrry about crits in any way you decide how to rule them (they bypass Dr or not). Personally I would add a clause that, against critical hits, this DR instead converts that many WP into VP. So if I took a critical hit for 15 damage, and only had 10 WP, I could use this to instead take 15 VP. I also got an idea like that off the boards, where when I character was critically struck, he could make a Fort save to shrug off Wp damage in Vp damage. That's what I based the Ap system off of.