Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shadow mage 02-09-05, 11:41 PM	First, I heard that basically everything in UA is open game content. Is that true? If so, (and here's my second question), can anyone explain to me in simplified terms how gestalt works? I keep getting the vision in my head of a character gaining two classes at once, taking the best saves, BAB, HD, and abilities from both... Any help's appreciated.
Baron Rod 02-10-05, 12:08 AM	You have it right on both counts. 1) Use what U what, throw out the rest. 2) Take the class abilities of both classes, the better of the two saves, the better BAB, etc... this is what Gestalt is all about. Baron Rod
gbnogkfs 02-10-05, 12:10 AM	It's almost all OGC, except for names, pictures and some monsters With Gestalt you take a level in two different classes when you level up, with the following guidelines: - HD: you get the highest - skill points: you get the highest amount between the two classes - class skills: all skills that are class skill for either of the two classes are class skills for that level - BAB: you take the better progression(*) of the two classes - Saves: for each one, you use the better progression(*) of the two classes - Special Features: you get all special features(**) of the two classes (*) what "better progression" exactely means when changing classes from the initial two noone knows. a reasonable suggestion is to use fractional BAB and Saves: each level in a class with average BAB adds +3/4 and each level in a class with poor BAB adds +1/2; each level in a class with good Save adds +1/3 and each level in a class with good Save adds +1/2 (**) repeated features are taken once. The basic idea is this one, how you want to implement it is left to you
shadow mage 02-10-05, 11:09 AM	Alright, I think I understand now. Let's see if these sample characters are accurate to those rules. level class / class bab saves special 1 fighter / rogue +1 +2/+2/+0 bonus feat, sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding 2 fighter / rogue +2 +3/+3/+0 bonus feat, evasion 3 fighter / rogue +3 +3/+3/+1 sneak attack +3d6, trap sense +1 4 fighter / rogue +4 +4/+4/+1 bonus feat, uncanny dodge 5 fighter / rogue +5 +4/+4/+1 sneak attack +3d6 6 fighter / rogue +6 +5/+5/+2 bonus feat, trap sense +2 HD: d10 Skills: 8 + Int (rogue list) Proficiencies: as Fighter And for a spellcasting sample... level class / class bab saves special spells per day 1 fighter / sorcerer +1 +2/+0/+2 bonus feat, Familiar 5/3 2 fighter / sorcerer +2 +3/+0/+3 bonus feat 6/4 3 fighter / sorcerer +3 +3/+1/+3 6/5 4 fighter / sorcerer +4 +4/+1/+4 bonus feat 6/6/3 5 fighter / sorcerer +5 +4/+1/+4 6/6/4 6 fighter / sorcerer +6 +5/+2/+5 bonus feat 6/6/5/3 HD: d10 Skills: 2 + Int (sorcerer list) Proficiencies: as Fighter Would this be right?
Krynus Ogrebane 02-10-05, 11:43 AM	Yep.
shadow mage 02-10-05, 12:59 PM	Damn, I suppose gestalt is only used for serious power gaming then. Artificer/Fighters, Sorcerer/Fighters, Rogue or Ranger/Fighters (lots of fighters I notice), and even scarier Psion/Wizards would dominate gestalt games, which explains a lot of why so few people (that I know, at any rate) use the gestalt option...
Lord_Anthrax 02-10-05, 01:19 PM	It's also useful if you want to have a small party(2 people, for example)and don't want to load them down with NPC's. Gestalt gets even more fun when you start mingling Prestige Classes(and it should be noted, you can't Gestalt two Prestige Classes, so no Frenzied Berzerker-War Hulks)into the mix.
shadow mage 02-10-05, 01:43 PM	It's also useful if you want to have a small party(2 people, for example)and don't want to load them down with NPC's. Gestalt gets even more fun when you start mingling Prestige Classes(and it should be noted, you can't Gestalt two Prestige Classes, so no Frenzied Berzerker-War Hulks)into the mix. You scared me there for a second, until you mentioned you gestalting two prestige classes. Being an avid user of two-weapon fighting, I was considering the idea of a Ranger/Fighter going to Dervish/Tempest (which would be...scary, to say the least). You do make a very good point about smaller parties, though, when I DM I prefer dealing with smaller groups as opposed to groups of 6-8 (which gets rough, to me anyway), so this is a definite option now. Anyways, thanks for your inputs, everyone. Your help's greatly appreciated. And as an advertising note, jagggar's posting several of the UA Class variants in the Classes and Prestige Classes forums, if you need quick references. :)
jagggar 02-10-05, 05:45 PM	On the examples you gave, one small change. Skills: You combine both lists, so the fighter/rogue gets class skills from both lists. The fighter/sorcerer gets class skills from both lists.
Lord_Anthrax 02-10-05, 06:21 PM	Also, keep in mind. Even a Sorcerer-Wizard can only cast one spell a round(barring metamagic), a Cleric-Monk can still only cast a spell OR make an attack, etc. It widens your options and can create some very powerful characters, but what it does most is greatly widen your options and increase your endurance. It's highly recommended you knock 2 off the CR of every creature a Gestalt party faces, because of their ability to adventure much longer(especially in the case of dual spellcasters)and to handle more dangerous encounters because of their extra abilities(A Fighter-Wizard out of spells is still a Fighter, for example).
shadow mage 02-10-05, 07:06 PM	Hm...combined skill sets eh? That could be fun to play with. Eh, you have a point Lord_Anthrax, on the challenge rating part. However, I have a very simple balancing factor that involves adding monsters with character levels to the game (gotta love the troll sorcerer/fire elemental savant to mix things up). That should help, but I think I will have to more carefully monitor groups I DM (thankfully I'm not DM any time soon...). The "one spell per round" and "cast or attack" is no issue with me personally, though I understand it can take the edge off incentive to play gestalt by many people. I'm very used to devising strategies for fighter/mages (as my Character Build Spotlight: Gish indicates) so I'm used to those decisions. That's what makes this so...pleasant for me to try. I figure a Fighter/Sorcerer gestalt who begins going up spellsword (in place of fighter levels) is one helluva force to be reckoned with... :plotting:
dagger 02-10-05, 07:48 PM	You can have two prestige classes in a Gestalt build, but you cannot take them at the same time. This Okay: Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Tempest Fighter/Dervish Fighter/Tempest You couldn't go: Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Rogue Dervish/Tempest Dervish/Tempest
HailSpork 02-13-05, 01:46 AM	Could you go: favored soul/sorceror favored soul/sorceror favored soul/sorceror favored soul/sorceror sorceror/mystic theurge? or would the +1 to effective casting be the best of the two classes, not cumulative?
jagggar 02-13-05, 10:54 AM	"A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially clas combinations--such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight--should be prohibited if you're using gestalt classes, because they unduely complicate the game balance of what's already a high-powered variant. Because it's possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the DM is entirely justified in thoughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it's availavle only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters." Even if Mystic Theurge was allowed, that'd be overlapping class features.
HailSpork 02-13-05, 04:47 PM	Ok, the I guess it's be more accurate to ask if you did a level of wizard/geometer or such. Same answer though; overlapping ability. The mystic theurge would just be more overpowered; by level 11, you'd be a casting level 5 diving spells and level 9 arcane.