Paladin as a template (odd idea) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Paladin as a template (odd idea) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
05-10-07, 02:45 AM Paladins. They're front loaded. They're weak. They steal candy from babies then go through a big angsty drama about how they've fallen from grace and need to either atone or become blackguards. They need good ability scores in every ability except intelligence.

So I'm thinking -- what if paladin were an aquired template instead? The template wouldn't be taken at level 1 by someone who starts torturing prisoners by level 2 -- it would have to be acquired in game play by someone proven. Because people would continue to advance in their existing class, the front-loadedness wouldn't be so bad. It would also allow more flexible character concepts: a fighter/cleric with the paladin template could be a classical paladin, but a rogue with the paladin template could be the ultimate "good cop" urban investigator, crimefighter, and detective, or a sorcerer with the paladin template could be a "light mage."

The template has a total level adjustment of +2.

Template Features:

Gained at 1st level of paladin template progression:

-Smite Evil ability, doing damage equal to your hit dice. You can use this ability once per day, plus a number of additional times per day equal to your hit dice divided by five (rounded down).

-Aura of Good, as with a good cleric with a number of levels equal to your hit dice.

-Detect evil

-Divine grace

-Lay on hands, with a hit point pool equal to your hit dice x your charisma modifier.

Gained in the 2nd level of paladin template progression

-Aura of Courage

-Divine health.

-If you have 3 or more hit dice, you gain a special mount, as with the paladin feature. Your effective paladin level is your hit dice - 3 + 2.

Note that you do not gain turn undead, remove disease, or divine spellcasting. Paladins with cleric levels, however, can acquire such abilities from their cleric levels.

Thoughts?
Ra-Tiel
05-10-07, 03:36 AM Now that is a cool idea! :D Perhaps you could make "Blackguard" a related template, as many paladins couldn't become blackguards even if they wanted to (Hide 5 ranks :banghead: ).

But I really like your train of thought on this one. It solves soooo many problems with the general "concept" of paladins in DnD, I wonder if it was possible to ditch PrCs alltogether and work them out as templates you take while continuing your normal class progression. :thinks:
Illithid_Tentacles
05-10-07, 06:12 PM ...

That's actually a really interesting idea. Although instead of just receiving Smite Evil, I think there ought to be a second option for spellcasters with this template so it's not useless to them. Maybe something like Inspired Spell, which could be kind of like spontaneous metamagic, except without the extended casting time or heightened spell level, and instead of increasing damage, it could increase the saving throw by 1/2 HD (not applicible to spells without saving throws, of course). Just a thought.
Perseus_Stoned
05-10-07, 06:37 PM Ditto on what everyone else said, you might want to make this an "upgrade" to a Celestial template.
Theskippingman
05-10-07, 08:09 PM Not the best idea. The best alternatives to core paladin are Jaerom Darkwind's version or the prestige class version at wakinglands.com. Yeah, the paladin-as-template idea seems 'odd' because it is odd.

Theskippingman
MasonMurdoc
05-10-07, 08:34 PM I like it
It's a pretty cool Idea
That way you can have so many Paladin concepts
like Martial Arts Paladin, Blowing stuff up Paladin, The Investigater Paladin, The Nature oving Paladin, and the Classic Paladin
Gideon_Gideonson
05-10-07, 10:11 PM This is one of the better Paladin fixes I've seen. You know a class needs work when it becomes a template, and it suddenly so much cooler :D

I also approve of your removal of the Lawful requirement, which always struck me as stupid to the Nth degree.

I think I will steal this for my campaign. *grabs idea and runs*
JulesCARV
05-11-07, 10:49 AM I also approve of your removal of the Lawful requirement, which always struck me as stupid to the Nth degree.

Well, glad you like this, but I never really mentioned alignment or code in the template. The default assumption, I suppose, is that those who take on the paladin template still must be lawful good, and they still must follow the classical code of conduct to protect the innocent, etc. Certainly, one could remove the lawful requirement from this template, but I'm not quite sure where you're getting the idea that I removed the lawful requirement, other than the fact that I didn't mention alignment (law or good) or code restrictions.
unundindur
05-11-07, 11:02 AM I think this is a descent take on the issue, although I personally don't see "paladin" as anything more than a title that doesn't need a class of its own. Paladin (as depicted in high-fantasy) is in my mind just a good word for a good aligned fighter/cleric.

That said, I see where you are aiming and it is well done in that regard :)
Werral
05-12-07, 03:49 PM Actually you could take this to its logical extreme and have only four base classes and everthing else as a template (a stripped down priest with druid or cleric templates) and so on.

At the very least it could replace PrCs - they'd become prestige templates.

Certainly Swashbuckler should be a template (fighters or rogues), Knight should be a template (the knight class is just dumb IMO), rangers could be a template (basically anyone who lives in the woods. Barbarian could be a template (ie a primitive druid, primitive bard, primitive fighter, primitive sorcerer ,- kinda precludes wizard).

Any other classes as templates out there?
JulesCARV
05-12-07, 06:24 PM By the way, I initially screwed up on the special mount issue. I meant for a template paladin to acquire a special mount at ECL 5, but my mind fizzled. What I meant is for them to receive a mount as a paladin of their hit dice +2, rather than a mount of their hit dice - 3.
JulesCARV
05-12-07, 06:24 PM Actually you could take this to its logical extreme and have only four base classes and everthing else as a template (a stripped down priest with druid or cleric templates) and so on.

Why not three? Spellcaster, skill-user, and combatant.
Jenrock
05-13-07, 01:28 AM Why not three? Spellcaster, skill-user, and combatant.

You could actually use the four generic classes from Unearthed Arcana (see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)) and then just add templates on top of them.
unundindur
05-13-07, 05:39 PM Or just go for a classless system... such as my own project Realia :rolleyes:
Chimaera2000
05-14-07, 08:21 PM It's a neat idea conceptually. Of course, with the Rebalanced Paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045)kicking around, I'm just fine with paladins as a class again.

Mechanically, I really don't think that Divine Grace should be available at level one. That's the paladin's strongest ability, as it can net you in the range of +10 to all saves at 20th level. From a min-maxing perspective, I think that I'd prefer to take actual paladin levels (gaining the Hit Dice, BAB, saves, and proficiencies) or just one level of this template for the numerous juicy abilities. Take that as you will.
IrishRover
05-14-07, 10:14 PM I do like the idea here for a template. It might also work for other classes as well--but it REALLY fits the idea of a holy adventurer. For another idea, you might look at the prestige paladin (along with the prestige bard and prestige ranger) in Unearthed Arcana.
Werral
05-15-07, 11:54 AM Why not three? Spellcaster, skill-user, and combatant.

and Divine?

But three is fine too.
Midrealm_DM
05-15-07, 12:52 PM It's a pretty cool Idea, Blowing stuff up Paladin, The Investigater Paladin, The Nature oving Paladin, and the Classic Paladin

In my campaign I use eight 'paladin' types
One for each of the cardinal alignments (Lawful good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Evil, etc.) They are each modeled off of the original paladin template but with changes. Dragon Magazine did a similar touch a few years back.

This allows flexibility if you don't like the strict lawfulness of the core paladin.
I've never had any trouble with paladin's except for one player who wanted to play a lawful good paladin type while worship a lawful neutral deity, but he played the character as chaotic good. --
Ended up leaving the campaign in a huff when his horse was killed.
ORC_Nashira
06-17-08, 07:36 AM Moved at VCL request.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 05-10-07, 02:45 AM	Paladins. They're front loaded. They're weak. They steal candy from babies then go through a big angsty drama about how they've fallen from grace and need to either atone or become blackguards. They need good ability scores in every ability except intelligence. So I'm thinking -- what if paladin were an aquired template instead? The template wouldn't be taken at level 1 by someone who starts torturing prisoners by level 2 -- it would have to be acquired in game play by someone proven. Because people would continue to advance in their existing class, the front-loadedness wouldn't be so bad. It would also allow more flexible character concepts: a fighter/cleric with the paladin template could be a classical paladin, but a rogue with the paladin template could be the ultimate "good cop" urban investigator, crimefighter, and detective, or a sorcerer with the paladin template could be a "light mage." The template has a total level adjustment of +2. Template Features: Gained at 1st level of paladin template progression: -Smite Evil ability, doing damage equal to your hit dice. You can use this ability once per day, plus a number of additional times per day equal to your hit dice divided by five (rounded down). -Aura of Good, as with a good cleric with a number of levels equal to your hit dice. -Detect evil -Divine grace -Lay on hands, with a hit point pool equal to your hit dice x your charisma modifier. Gained in the 2nd level of paladin template progression -Aura of Courage -Divine health. -If you have 3 or more hit dice, you gain a special mount, as with the paladin feature. Your effective paladin level is your hit dice - 3 + 2. Note that you do not gain turn undead, remove disease, or divine spellcasting. Paladins with cleric levels, however, can acquire such abilities from their cleric levels. Thoughts?
Ra-Tiel 05-10-07, 03:36 AM	Now that is a cool idea! :D Perhaps you could make "Blackguard" a related template, as many paladins couldn't become blackguards even if they wanted to (Hide 5 ranks :banghead: ). But I really like your train of thought on this one. It solves soooo many problems with the general "concept" of paladins in DnD, I wonder if it was possible to ditch PrCs alltogether and work them out as templates you take while continuing your normal class progression. :thinks:
Illithid_Tentacles 05-10-07, 06:12 PM	... That's actually a really interesting idea. Although instead of just receiving Smite Evil, I think there ought to be a second option for spellcasters with this template so it's not useless to them. Maybe something like Inspired Spell, which could be kind of like spontaneous metamagic, except without the extended casting time or heightened spell level, and instead of increasing damage, it could increase the saving throw by 1/2 HD (not applicible to spells without saving throws, of course). Just a thought.
Perseus_Stoned 05-10-07, 06:37 PM	Ditto on what everyone else said, you might want to make this an "upgrade" to a Celestial template.
Theskippingman 05-10-07, 08:09 PM	Not the best idea. The best alternatives to core paladin are Jaerom Darkwind's version or the prestige class version at wakinglands.com. Yeah, the paladin-as-template idea seems 'odd' because it is odd. Theskippingman
MasonMurdoc 05-10-07, 08:34 PM	I like it It's a pretty cool Idea That way you can have so many Paladin concepts like Martial Arts Paladin, Blowing stuff up Paladin, The Investigater Paladin, The Nature oving Paladin, and the Classic Paladin
Gideon_Gideonson 05-10-07, 10:11 PM	This is one of the better Paladin fixes I've seen. You know a class needs work when it becomes a template, and it suddenly so much cooler :D I also approve of your removal of the Lawful requirement, which always struck me as stupid to the Nth degree. I think I will steal this for my campaign. grabs idea and runs
JulesCARV 05-11-07, 10:49 AM	I also approve of your removal of the Lawful requirement, which always struck me as stupid to the Nth degree. Well, glad you like this, but I never really mentioned alignment or code in the template. The default assumption, I suppose, is that those who take on the paladin template still must be lawful good, and they still must follow the classical code of conduct to protect the innocent, etc. Certainly, one could remove the lawful requirement from this template, but I'm not quite sure where you're getting the idea that I removed the lawful requirement, other than the fact that I didn't mention alignment (law or good) or code restrictions.
unundindur 05-11-07, 11:02 AM	I think this is a descent take on the issue, although I personally don't see "paladin" as anything more than a title that doesn't need a class of its own. Paladin (as depicted in high-fantasy) is in my mind just a good word for a good aligned fighter/cleric. That said, I see where you are aiming and it is well done in that regard :)
Werral 05-12-07, 03:49 PM	Actually you could take this to its logical extreme and have only four base classes and everthing else as a template (a stripped down priest with druid or cleric templates) and so on. At the very least it could replace PrCs - they'd become prestige templates. Certainly Swashbuckler should be a template (fighters or rogues), Knight should be a template (the knight class is just dumb IMO), rangers could be a template (basically anyone who lives in the woods. Barbarian could be a template (ie a primitive druid, primitive bard, primitive fighter, primitive sorcerer ,- kinda precludes wizard). Any other classes as templates out there?
JulesCARV 05-12-07, 06:24 PM	By the way, I initially screwed up on the special mount issue. I meant for a template paladin to acquire a special mount at ECL 5, but my mind fizzled. What I meant is for them to receive a mount as a paladin of their hit dice +2, rather than a mount of their hit dice - 3.
JulesCARV 05-12-07, 06:24 PM	Actually you could take this to its logical extreme and have only four base classes and everthing else as a template (a stripped down priest with druid or cleric templates) and so on. Why not three? Spellcaster, skill-user, and combatant.
Jenrock 05-13-07, 01:28 AM	Why not three? Spellcaster, skill-user, and combatant. You could actually use the four generic classes from Unearthed Arcana (see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm)) and then just add templates on top of them.
unundindur 05-13-07, 05:39 PM	Or just go for a classless system... such as my own project Realia :rolleyes:
Chimaera2000 05-14-07, 08:21 PM	It's a neat idea conceptually. Of course, with the Rebalanced Paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045)kicking around, I'm just fine with paladins as a class again. Mechanically, I really don't think that Divine Grace should be available at level one. That's the paladin's strongest ability, as it can net you in the range of +10 to all saves at 20th level. From a min-maxing perspective, I think that I'd prefer to take actual paladin levels (gaining the Hit Dice, BAB, saves, and proficiencies) or just one level of this template for the numerous juicy abilities. Take that as you will.
IrishRover 05-14-07, 10:14 PM	I do like the idea here for a template. It might also work for other classes as well--but it REALLY fits the idea of a holy adventurer. For another idea, you might look at the prestige paladin (along with the prestige bard and prestige ranger) in Unearthed Arcana.
Werral 05-15-07, 11:54 AM	Why not three? Spellcaster, skill-user, and combatant. and Divine? But three is fine too.
Midrealm_DM 05-15-07, 12:52 PM	It's a pretty cool Idea, Blowing stuff up Paladin, The Investigater Paladin, The Nature oving Paladin, and the Classic Paladin In my campaign I use eight 'paladin' types One for each of the cardinal alignments (Lawful good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Evil, etc.) They are each modeled off of the original paladin template but with changes. Dragon Magazine did a similar touch a few years back. This allows flexibility if you don't like the strict lawfulness of the core paladin. I've never had any trouble with paladin's except for one player who wanted to play a lawful good paladin type while worship a lawful neutral deity, but he played the character as chaotic good. -- Ended up leaving the campaign in a huff when his horse was killed.
ORC_Nashira 06-17-08, 07:36 AM	Moved at VCL request.