Paladin of tyranny and blackgaurd [Archive] - Wizards Community

Paladin of tyranny and blackgaurd [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
raidensnake
04-22-04, 04:53 PM yesterday an interesting situation occured in my play group one of our players was a paladin of tyranny and wanted to take levels of blackgaurd he said that since he has levels in a paladin class he will get addional smite goods, better sneak attack and lay on hands. i am not sure what to do in this situation?

any opinions?
Munchmausen
04-22-04, 05:40 PM Sneak attack and smite usually stack, so sure. Lay on hands is a pool of healing points which can be distributed as the character sees fit. My diagnosis is that these stack beautifully.
Ryan_Singer
04-22-04, 07:24 PM Originally posted by raidensnake
yesterday an interesting situation occured in my play group one of our players was a paladin of tyranny and wanted to take levels of blackgaurd he said that since he has levels in a paladin class he will get addional smite goods, better sneak attack and lay on hands. i am not sure what to do in this situation?

any opinions?

Wow. Lawful Evil. Who would've guessed?-Ryan
Dartanel
04-22-04, 07:51 PM By the letter of the law, only 'Paladin' levels would count. 'Paladin of Tyrrany' is a different class. In fact, by the letter of the law 'Paladin of Honor' is different than 'Paladin'

But, you're using a variant, so the letter of the law obviously does not apply. It's your judgement call. By the spirit of the law, only Paladin of Honor and Paladin of Freedom should count.

The intent is to pay you back abilities you lost for being an ex-paladin, so I suppose his Paladin of Tyrrany levels could count if he became a CE blackguard, though.
Jack Daniel
04-22-04, 09:06 PM If you're using antipaladins, there's no reason to even allow the blackguard prestige class.
The White Sorcerer
04-23-04, 03:29 AM If I use the evil paladins, I only use the blackguard class for fallen paladins of honor/freedom.
Millennium
04-23-04, 07:03 AM The additional blackguard powers come from the corruption of a Good heart, signified in game terms by the loss of previous paladin abilities. A PoT doesn't have a good heart to corrupt, and he's still active as a PoT, so he can't get any additional blackguard powers from it.
Bard-of-all-trades
04-23-04, 10:10 AM I think you should allow it. He's playing an evil character taking an evil prestige class. It's no different than a good character taking a good prestige class.

And, technically, he is losing paladin abilities because he is now a blackguard and no longer a paladin of tyranny. Nothing say that being a variant eliminates the loss of abilities for becoming an ex-Paladin of Tyranny. As long as he sacrifices the levels, as per the DMG, he should get the abilities.

So the question now is, what level is this Paladin of Tyranny and what kinds of abilities is he trying to get?
Millennium
04-23-04, 10:39 AM Originally posted by Bard-of-all-trades
I think you should allow it. He's playing an evil character taking an evil prestige class. It's no different than a good character taking a good prestige class.
True, but it is different from a good character taking an evil prestige class, which is what the fallen paladin abilities of the Blackguard cover.
And, technically, he is losing paladin abilities because he is now a blackguard and no longer a paladin of tyranny.
You don't lose paladin abilities just for switching classes, in any rule set. Most rules (including the core ones) won't allow you to advance them any further, but as long as you do not violate your code of honor you can keep what you had earned before you switched You have not "fallen" simply for changing classes unless that change causes you to violate your code by some other means.
Nothing say that being a variant eliminates the loss of abilities for becoming an ex-Paladin of Tyranny. As long as he sacrifices the levels, as per the DMG, he should get the abilities.
You don't lose the abilities for becoming an ex-paladin; you lose them for violating your code (which, in turn, forces you to become an ex-paladin). There is nothing about becoming a blackguard which necessarily violates the PoT's code.
SMW
04-23-04, 04:58 PM Blackguard is a base PrC.

Paladin of Tyranny is an alternate kit for Paladin, and in an optional rulebook.

The two from the looks of it were never met to meet in one character. Although Paladins of Tyranny are still Paladins in all respects to the Paladin relationship to the Blackguards class abilities, it is kind of a conundrum. Ultimately, since Paladins of Tyranny are a more-optional-than-normal class, this situation, moreso than normal, requires the input of the GM in how to handle the situation.

I don't have a problem with it. Its an evil character taking levels in an evil prestige class. But I wouldn't allow the level trade in for having more than 11 levels of paladin. It mentions in that special that the dark powers favor nothing more than to see a pure heart corrupted.. well.. the Paladin of Tyranny is far from Pure. Unless you count Pure Evil
Cathon
04-23-04, 05:14 PM I'd say, don't give something for nothing. A fallen paladin gives up a lot of abilities, converting to blackguard lets him convert some of those lost abilities into blackguard abilities or retain some paladin abilities. Therefore, if he wants to take fallen paladin level bonuses he needs to give up an equivalent amount of paladin of tyranny abilities to get the fallen paladin abilities.

Now if he just wants to take blackguard and have abilities stack, then that is perfectly reasonable. But he should only get fallen paladin abilities if he is a fallen paladin and gives up equivalent abilities.
Aurotuli
04-25-04, 09:46 PM The poster did not mention the player wanting to take level as a fallen paladin. The player just wants to take levels as a blackguard in addition to his levels as a pal o tyrrany. There is no mention of replacing levels, so I am assuming there is no intention of doing so. As such, I see nothing wrong with this.

If the player wishes to replace the levels, allow him to replace the Pal of Tyr levels with Blk levels - but without the additional specials that would come of being fallen. He was not good to begin with, so he does not receive them. Yes, he will get smite good and sneak attack, but if he is replacing levels these will just replace the ones he lost in losing the levels - thus netting a gain only if hte Blk gains Snk Atk / Smite Good at a faster rate (which it might, I don't know). He will not gain the extra specials for falling has has not fallen. How can one fall when one is already at the bottom?
riceisnice
04-25-04, 10:31 PM You shouldn't allow it, for two reasons.

1. The description of the special case for fallen paladin blackguards makes references to them being individuals "who have tasted the light of goodness and justice and turned away" and, in reference to fallen paladins, how "evil deities like nothing more than to see a pure heart corrupted".

2. The blackguard prestige class is only available to fallen paladins, meaning paladins who have turned away from their code. A lawful good paladin would become a fallen paladin were he to turn to evil. To be a fallen evil paladin would mean the character has broken his paladin's code of dedication to evil, making him good, or maybe neutral, and preventing him from qualifying for the blackguard prestige class in the first place.

HOWEVER, there is one way for it to work. He could become a fallen lawful evil paladin on the law-chaos axis, but it would require an alignment change to chaotic evil, meaning a loss of all paladin special abilities and spells as per standard fallen paladin rules. He could take blackguard levels, but all of his paladin powers would be lost.
jagggar
04-25-04, 11:00 PM Treat "fallen paladin" as "fallen paladin from good."

He should only get the standard blackguard abilities.
Arindor
04-26-04, 01:04 PM riceisnice wrote "The blackguard prestige class is only available to fallen paladins, meaning paladins who have turned away from their code. "

Actually nothing in the requirements state you had to be a paladin to qualify.

"Requirements
To qualify to become a blackguard, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Skills: Hide 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks.
Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack.
Special: The character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else."

Also under Black Guard says
"Fallen Paladins
Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have."

A Paladin of Tyranny is not an ex-paladin so no extra abilities.
JongWK
04-28-04, 10:18 AM Why not skipping the entire problem by doing this: a fallen Paladin (of any kind) needs only an Atonement and a quest to become a Paladin of another kind. He loses all benefits grnated by his previous alignment and gains all the powers bestowed by his new outlook.

A (Lawful Good) Paladin of Honor who becomes Lawful Evil only needs to find a LE cleric, take a quest and receive an atonement to become a Paladin of Tyranny.

Among other things, this allows you to make a fallen Paladin turned to evil at very low levels, without having to give him a big number of levels.
Count Arioch the 28th
04-28-04, 06:04 PM I'd allow a paladin of Tyranny to take levels of Blcakguyard.

However, I would amend the fallen paladin info to read as "Fallen paladin of Honor or Freedom", and would consider Paladin of Slaughter and Paladin of Tyranny as simply not paladin levels in terms of abilities and so forth.

The reason why is because those abilities are to make up for the fact that good paladins lose all their abilities before taking the blackguard class, and it makes up for them.
BrutalMisery
04-28-04, 08:58 PM "Antipaladins"

I hate the term. In my opinion, it is the ultmate display of the lack of imgination in a game where imginatin is a requirement to play. Paladin of Tyranny, Blackguard, Dark Templar, Foul Knight, Blood hunter...these are intresting, mildly fear inspriing names. "Antipaladin" sounds like something you'd find on the periodic table.

As for the subject at hand: Yeah, they would stack. Nicely. Though I agree, I wouldn't allow the darker versions of the paladin to trade in their levels for levels of Blackguard.

My thoughts anyhow.
Shade West
06-02-04, 10:16 PM Frankly, I wouldn't allow Blackguards and Paladins of Tyranny or Slaughter in the same campaign. If you do though, let him go whole hog. If he becomes a problem, you can always throw in an NPC "Redeemed Knight" (think anti-blackguard. But I share Brutal's view of the terms.) to ruin his day sometime.
rockfall22
06-03-04, 02:50 AM I would allow it personally... a character can be a paladin of tyranny and slaughter sure, but a blackguard is the cream of the crop.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru
06-03-04, 08:35 AM I swear, some people have reading comprehension problems...

The question is not whether multiclassing into blackguard is allowed. The question is whether he would get the "Fallen Paladin" bonus.

The answer is 'no'. Because he is not an 'ex-paladin'. Nothing about taking blackguard levels violates the Paladin of Tyranny's code, any more than becoming a Hospitaler violates the code of a Paladin of Honor. Therefore, he is not an 'ex-paladin' he is still a paladin, and gets THOSE bonuses accordingly.

He knows this, I'm sure. I'm sure you know it too. So what're you waiting for. Slap him around for being a munchkin, and then move on.
Templar_Prime
06-04-04, 10:34 PM PoT and PoS *are* Blackguards (much better name than anti-paladins). They shouldn't even exist in the same campaign.

Seriously.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
raidensnake 04-22-04, 04:53 PM	yesterday an interesting situation occured in my play group one of our players was a paladin of tyranny and wanted to take levels of blackgaurd he said that since he has levels in a paladin class he will get addional smite goods, better sneak attack and lay on hands. i am not sure what to do in this situation? any opinions?
Munchmausen 04-22-04, 05:40 PM	Sneak attack and smite usually stack, so sure. Lay on hands is a pool of healing points which can be distributed as the character sees fit. My diagnosis is that these stack beautifully.
Ryan_Singer 04-22-04, 07:24 PM	Originally posted by raidensnake yesterday an interesting situation occured in my play group one of our players was a paladin of tyranny and wanted to take levels of blackgaurd he said that since he has levels in a paladin class he will get addional smite goods, better sneak attack and lay on hands. i am not sure what to do in this situation? any opinions? Wow. Lawful Evil. Who would've guessed?-Ryan
Dartanel 04-22-04, 07:51 PM	By the letter of the law, only 'Paladin' levels would count. 'Paladin of Tyrrany' is a different class. In fact, by the letter of the law 'Paladin of Honor' is different than 'Paladin' But, you're using a variant, so the letter of the law obviously does not apply. It's your judgement call. By the spirit of the law, only Paladin of Honor and Paladin of Freedom should count. The intent is to pay you back abilities you lost for being an ex-paladin, so I suppose his Paladin of Tyrrany levels could count if he became a CE blackguard, though.
Jack Daniel 04-22-04, 09:06 PM	If you're using antipaladins, there's no reason to even allow the blackguard prestige class.
The White Sorcerer 04-23-04, 03:29 AM	If I use the evil paladins, I only use the blackguard class for fallen paladins of honor/freedom.
Millennium 04-23-04, 07:03 AM	The additional blackguard powers come from the corruption of a Good heart, signified in game terms by the loss of previous paladin abilities. A PoT doesn't have a good heart to corrupt, and he's still active as a PoT, so he can't get any additional blackguard powers from it.
Bard-of-all-trades 04-23-04, 10:10 AM	I think you should allow it. He's playing an evil character taking an evil prestige class. It's no different than a good character taking a good prestige class. And, technically, he is losing paladin abilities because he is now a blackguard and no longer a paladin of tyranny. Nothing say that being a variant eliminates the loss of abilities for becoming an ex-Paladin of Tyranny. As long as he sacrifices the levels, as per the DMG, he should get the abilities. So the question now is, what level is this Paladin of Tyranny and what kinds of abilities is he trying to get?
Millennium 04-23-04, 10:39 AM	Originally posted by Bard-of-all-trades I think you should allow it. He's playing an evil character taking an evil prestige class. It's no different than a good character taking a good prestige class. True, but it is different from a good character taking an evil prestige class, which is what the fallen paladin abilities of the Blackguard cover. And, technically, he is losing paladin abilities because he is now a blackguard and no longer a paladin of tyranny. You don't lose paladin abilities just for switching classes, in any rule set. Most rules (including the core ones) won't allow you to advance them any further, but as long as you do not violate your code of honor you can keep what you had earned before you switched You have not "fallen" simply for changing classes unless that change causes you to violate your code by some other means. Nothing say that being a variant eliminates the loss of abilities for becoming an ex-Paladin of Tyranny. As long as he sacrifices the levels, as per the DMG, he should get the abilities. You don't lose the abilities for becoming an ex-paladin; you lose them for violating your code (which, in turn, forces you to become an ex-paladin). There is nothing about becoming a blackguard which necessarily violates the PoT's code.
SMW 04-23-04, 04:58 PM	Blackguard is a base PrC. Paladin of Tyranny is an alternate kit for Paladin, and in an optional rulebook. The two from the looks of it were never met to meet in one character. Although Paladins of Tyranny are still Paladins in all respects to the Paladin relationship to the Blackguards class abilities, it is kind of a conundrum. Ultimately, since Paladins of Tyranny are a more-optional-than-normal class, this situation, moreso than normal, requires the input of the GM in how to handle the situation. I don't have a problem with it. Its an evil character taking levels in an evil prestige class. But I wouldn't allow the level trade in for having more than 11 levels of paladin. It mentions in that special that the dark powers favor nothing more than to see a pure heart corrupted.. well.. the Paladin of Tyranny is far from Pure. Unless you count Pure Evil
Cathon 04-23-04, 05:14 PM	I'd say, don't give something for nothing. A fallen paladin gives up a lot of abilities, converting to blackguard lets him convert some of those lost abilities into blackguard abilities or retain some paladin abilities. Therefore, if he wants to take fallen paladin level bonuses he needs to give up an equivalent amount of paladin of tyranny abilities to get the fallen paladin abilities. Now if he just wants to take blackguard and have abilities stack, then that is perfectly reasonable. But he should only get fallen paladin abilities if he is a fallen paladin and gives up equivalent abilities.
Aurotuli 04-25-04, 09:46 PM	The poster did not mention the player wanting to take level as a fallen paladin. The player just wants to take levels as a blackguard in addition to his levels as a pal o tyrrany. There is no mention of replacing levels, so I am assuming there is no intention of doing so. As such, I see nothing wrong with this. If the player wishes to replace the levels, allow him to replace the Pal of Tyr levels with Blk levels - but without the additional specials that would come of being fallen. He was not good to begin with, so he does not receive them. Yes, he will get smite good and sneak attack, but if he is replacing levels these will just replace the ones he lost in losing the levels - thus netting a gain only if hte Blk gains Snk Atk / Smite Good at a faster rate (which it might, I don't know). He will not gain the extra specials for falling has has not fallen. How can one fall when one is already at the bottom?
riceisnice 04-25-04, 10:31 PM	You shouldn't allow it, for two reasons. 1. The description of the special case for fallen paladin blackguards makes references to them being individuals "who have tasted the light of goodness and justice and turned away" and, in reference to fallen paladins, how "evil deities like nothing more than to see a pure heart corrupted". 2. The blackguard prestige class is only available to fallen paladins, meaning paladins who have turned away from their code. A lawful good paladin would become a fallen paladin were he to turn to evil. To be a fallen evil paladin would mean the character has broken his paladin's code of dedication to evil, making him good, or maybe neutral, and preventing him from qualifying for the blackguard prestige class in the first place. HOWEVER, there is one way for it to work. He could become a fallen lawful evil paladin on the law-chaos axis, but it would require an alignment change to chaotic evil, meaning a loss of all paladin special abilities and spells as per standard fallen paladin rules. He could take blackguard levels, but all of his paladin powers would be lost.
jagggar 04-25-04, 11:00 PM	Treat "fallen paladin" as "fallen paladin from good." He should only get the standard blackguard abilities.
Arindor 04-26-04, 01:04 PM	riceisnice wrote "The blackguard prestige class is only available to fallen paladins, meaning paladins who have turned away from their code. " Actually nothing in the requirements state you had to be a paladin to qualify. "Requirements To qualify to become a blackguard, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Alignment: Any evil. Base Attack Bonus: +6. Skills: Hide 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks. Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack. Special: The character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else." Also under Black Guard says "Fallen Paladins Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have." A Paladin of Tyranny is not an ex-paladin so no extra abilities.
JongWK 04-28-04, 10:18 AM	Why not skipping the entire problem by doing this: a fallen Paladin (of any kind) needs only an Atonement and a quest to become a Paladin of another kind. He loses all benefits grnated by his previous alignment and gains all the powers bestowed by his new outlook. A (Lawful Good) Paladin of Honor who becomes Lawful Evil only needs to find a LE cleric, take a quest and receive an atonement to become a Paladin of Tyranny. Among other things, this allows you to make a fallen Paladin turned to evil at very low levels, without having to give him a big number of levels.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-28-04, 06:04 PM	I'd allow a paladin of Tyranny to take levels of Blcakguyard. However, I would amend the fallen paladin info to read as "Fallen paladin of Honor or Freedom", and would consider Paladin of Slaughter and Paladin of Tyranny as simply not paladin levels in terms of abilities and so forth. The reason why is because those abilities are to make up for the fact that good paladins lose all their abilities before taking the blackguard class, and it makes up for them.
BrutalMisery 04-28-04, 08:58 PM	"Antipaladins" I hate the term. In my opinion, it is the ultmate display of the lack of imgination in a game where imginatin is a requirement to play. Paladin of Tyranny, Blackguard, Dark Templar, Foul Knight, Blood hunter...these are intresting, mildly fear inspriing names. "Antipaladin" sounds like something you'd find on the periodic table. As for the subject at hand: Yeah, they would stack. Nicely. Though I agree, I wouldn't allow the darker versions of the paladin to trade in their levels for levels of Blackguard. My thoughts anyhow.
Shade West 06-02-04, 10:16 PM	Frankly, I wouldn't allow Blackguards and Paladins of Tyranny or Slaughter in the same campaign. If you do though, let him go whole hog. If he becomes a problem, you can always throw in an NPC "Redeemed Knight" (think anti-blackguard. But I share Brutal's view of the terms.) to ruin his day sometime.
rockfall22 06-03-04, 02:50 AM	I would allow it personally... a character can be a paladin of tyranny and slaughter sure, but a blackguard is the cream of the crop.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 06-03-04, 08:35 AM	I swear, some people have reading comprehension problems... The question is not whether multiclassing into blackguard is allowed. The question is whether he would get the "Fallen Paladin" bonus. The answer is 'no'. Because he is not an 'ex-paladin'. Nothing about taking blackguard levels violates the Paladin of Tyranny's code, any more than becoming a Hospitaler violates the code of a Paladin of Honor. Therefore, he is not an 'ex-paladin' he is still a paladin, and gets THOSE bonuses accordingly. He knows this, I'm sure. I'm sure you know it too. So what're you waiting for. Slap him around for being a munchkin, and then move on.
Templar_Prime 06-04-04, 10:34 PM	PoT and PoS are Blackguards (much better name than anti-paladins). They shouldn't even exist in the same campaign. Seriously.