Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_One_True_Boris 09-04-06, 06:11 PM	Ever since Complete Warrior introduced me to Divine Might and Divine Shield, I find the "calvalry" feat progression to be less and less appealing to my paladin builds. So, I started asking myself: "What would be a fair to give a paladin in exchange for his mount?" I've boiled down the advantages of the mount: +1 attack bonus for higher ground Increased movement speed Charging while weilding a lance Scent Descent Jump skill (see, under Ride descriptor in PHB, leap) Hoof attacks The mount also possesses disadvantages: Unwieldy during a dungeon crawl Imposes a -1 penalty to attack and damage rolls if killed Responsible charging occurs once in a combat. Eats into the PCs wealth (magic barding, horseshoes, etc.) Doesn't stand a chance of hitting high CR monsters I can buy a horse if I really needed one I'm not interested in hearing how wonderful the mount really is; I posted my thoughts just to demonstrate how much this really bugs me. What I'm asking the forum is: What would be a balanced trade-off for the inability to call a mount?
Marrethiel 09-04-06, 08:12 PM	1/ Maybe something like craft arms and armour feet, usable by the paladin only and their class level is the caster level. Then give some exp like the ebaron artificer does. The paladin doesn't actually "craft" the item, any masterwork item he wears for more than a month can be imbued with holy purpose. The granted exp might be just enough to keep a set of armour at max enhancement bonus, so if anything else is crafted that is his own exp. 2/ Automatic self only Raise Dead? 3/ Improving the effects of his aura to possibly include Fearless to all with in it. Improving his bonus to save vs mind effects or similar. 4/ Spell resistance... could be quite cool actually. 5/ Elemental Resistance, possibly a bit more unique and fits well with fighting fiery demons and the like. Five ideas of the top of my head :)
CaoSlayer 09-05-06, 05:36 AM	Celestial companion.
The_One_True_Boris 09-06-06, 12:15 AM	Celestial companion. In my eyes, that's essentially trading a horsey for some other celestial creature. No pets!
Vintar 09-06-06, 12:24 AM	How about just a fighter bonus feat every fifth level starting at 5. Without the mount you're going for more of a gizzled holy warrior of justice taking one trudging step at a time as opposed to the stereotypical knight in shining armor. Actually - I was planning on using this in my latest campaign except for the fact that no one was a paladin.
CaoSlayer 09-06-06, 04:52 AM	In my eyes, that's essentially trading a horsey for some other celestial creature. No pets! why not? you only complaint it is that you dont want to ride, granting a companion with more or less the same benefits will be totally balanced and no exploitable like other posible benefit.
Rhialto 09-06-06, 05:32 AM	Way I see it, if you don't want a wilderness warrior who is funky with bows, you don't pick a ranger. if you don't want to pick locks, you don't pick a rogue. if you don't want a holy knight on his trusty charger, you don't pick a paladin. Some things are just too integral to teh class concept to do away with. A paladin without his warhorse just doesn't fit the roleplaying image, although I imagine he might suit some rollplayers quite well.
Wargamer 09-06-06, 05:42 AM	I diagree with the above entirely. I don't do horses in D&D. I don't use mounted characters, I don't do animal companions, I don't want anything following my character around. To me, the "iconic" symbol of a Paladin is not "White Knight in Shining Armour", my iconic image is that of a warrior haloed in white light, swinging a massive halberd, sword or other huge weapon around in a fatal arc, looking up with defiant hatred at some massive demon, devil, dragon or suitably evil design of the night whilst said villain's minions swarm in the background. That is what I want to be when I play a Paladin; someone who charges in against the forces of evil with nothing but a weapon, some armour, and a whole lot of devotion. Now your other examples... Rangers have TWF progression for a reason. You don't HAVE to be a bowman to be a Ranger. Likewise, Rogues are more than just lock-pickers... they have SNEAK ATTACK! Sure, you can play the guy who'll pinch anything that's not nailed down, and if it is he gets free nails, but you can also play the guy who'll slit your throat in a dark alley rather than ask you the time of day. Alright, the whole Disable Device and Open Lock thing is pretty important, but it's only important when locks and traps are present. Even in the middle of a forest, a Rogue has plenty of tricks up his sleve. Paladins, on the other hand, MUST play the "Dolt on Horse" routine, otherwise they're losing out on a big part of their class. Cavalry characters don't suit your average dungeon-crawl... they demand regiments, armies, vast fields to gallop across and skewer someone. Horses don't like dungeons, caves, forests, haunted castles or anywhere else your average D&D party spends 80% of their time. Real useful, that mount...
Alpha_Moose 09-06-06, 11:38 AM	I know you don't want pets, but why not give them a leadership-like ability. Have a young squire follow you around or a bard to compose epic melodies of you.
The_One_True_Boris 09-06-06, 04:25 PM	why not? It was veiled a bit, but my dislike of the special mount is the actual dependence on the special mount's physical presence for it to be of any use. That, and I hate WoW with a passion. if you don't want a holy knight on his trusty charger, you don't pick a paladin. It's a variant, house-rule. Chill-out. I know you don't want pets, but why not give them a leadership-like ability. Have a young squire follow you around or a bard to compose epic melodies of you. Gaining a cohort has been done before (Enchanters in Unearthed Arcana), but I've never felt this is a fair trade. I'm getting more than I'm giving for a cohort of choice.
Alpha_Moose 09-06-06, 05:34 PM	You could give him the Favored Enemy but limit it to certain things (I think that's in the UA), or let him turn outsiders, or give him domain things.
Meatboy 09-08-06, 12:34 AM	Easy way to fix this is to create some varient paladin class features. Where by instead of gain a mount that progresses with level they gain a weapon, armor or shield of divine nature which progresses with level.
Serin Ghar 09-08-06, 12:48 AM	This is a question that can be solved with the Player's Handbook 2. There's a variant that trades the special mount with an charging smite ability.
The_One_True_Boris 09-08-06, 02:47 AM	Okay. Since someone actually suggested paying $30 for a houserule, I will now exclude "charging smite ability" from possible trades. No pets. No "charging smite ability" from a new book. :pbbbtt:
Shoujo 09-08-06, 05:04 AM	I'm not fond of the Pokemount either so I'm really glad this thread popped up. Gonna throw out some ideas to see if anybody can make em balanced. Perhaps grant a feat that lets the paladin use ride-by attack/spirited charge without a mount. Would need to balance it by making it more difficult to meet the conditions required to initiate a charge and use the said feats without a mount. Maybe increase the distance required from 10 feet to 25ish feet? I kinda like this flavorwise because it lets a paladin make use of a horse when available, but still do their thing without one. In terms of balance though, I prefer the bonus feat approach already mentioned. It's just safer to play with feats that have been tested. Though instead of fighter feats, I'd make it feats related to turn undead (divine might), charging, shields, and smiting.
The_One_True_Boris 09-08-06, 05:38 PM	I actually find that too many feats would unbalance the normal advantage of the mount (see original post). The first time I ditched the mount was for an NPC Paladin of Freedom, I boosted his skill points (4 + Int mod) and added Intimidate (but, as per flavor, he could only taunt/demoralize in combat), Diplomacy, and Gather Information to his class skill list. I was really wondering if someone else would come up with a similar skill variant.
theotherdraxen 09-09-06, 11:38 AM	Okay. Since someone actually suggested paying $30 for a houserule, I will now exclude "charging smite ability" from possible trades. No pets. No "charging smite ability" from a new book. :pbbbtt: Charging Smite is acutally pretty cool. Basically, it makes smite do 3 points of damage per paladin level when smiting instead of one, given you charge at an opponent. If you miss, you do not expend a use of smite. You get it at 5th level. Could someone let me know if I just broke the law right there?
Illithid_Tentacles 09-09-06, 12:12 PM	Well, seeing as how a paladin's mount is situationally useful, then it ought to be replaced with something else situationally useful, or something less powerful, but more universal. Maybe give them the bard's Inspire Courage ability (with some changes, of course). Usable once per day per two paladin levels, and at level 10 the morale bonus increases to +4 and the attack and damage bonus increase to +2. Lasts one round per paladin level, + Charisma modifier, but immediately ends if the paladin is killed, knocked unconscious, or retreats.
The_One_True_Boris 09-09-06, 05:20 PM	To theotherdraxon, you probably did. To Illithid Tentacles, great idea. I'll start play testing it ASAP. Keep up the good work, denizens of the forum.
Rhialto 09-09-06, 06:54 PM	As part of the Warhammer D20 project, we are woprking on a templar class as a paladin replacement. Depending on deity, they get a variety of different bonuses instead of the usual paladin bonuses. The warhorse is definitely one thing likely to change for many deities. Manann (sea god) for example, won't give them a warhorse, but he's one of the rare deities that let's his templars use bows and muskets. Morr, god of death, gives no horse, but you get a raven companion instead. Shallya, goddess of healing, gives a warhorse and is the only deity with significant healing bonuses, but she won't let you kill anything at all.
Xavon_Wrentaile 09-09-06, 09:38 PM	How about +10 Move and d12 HD? Makes up for the lost movement of the mount and the loss of a meat shield. Kinda steps on the barbarian's toes though. ----------------- Cha bonus to AC as well as saves? Fits with tough/armored warrior. ----------------- Wings that grow with level (like Feather Fall at L5, Gliding at L10, True Flight at L15).
Jeremy757 09-10-06, 07:44 PM	Well, seeing as how a paladin's mount is situationally useful, then it ought to be replaced with something else situationally useful, or something less powerful, but more universal. Maybe give them the bard's Inspire Courage ability (with some changes, of course). Usable once per day per two paladin levels, and at level 10 the morale bonus increases to +4 and the attack and damage bonus increase to +2. Lasts one round per paladin level, + Charisma modifier, but immediately ends if the paladin is killed, knocked unconscious, or retreats. Or alternatively if you have the miniatures handbook or Heroes of Battle you could give the paladin a couple of command auras.
theotherdraxen 09-10-06, 11:39 PM	To theotherdraxon, you probably did. To Illithid Tentacles, great idea. I'll start play testing it ASAP. Keep up the good work, denizens of the forum. Damn. I'm gonna have to lay low in Mexico for a while... I've always felt that Paladins needed a little more Zeal in their class...specifically, Hour of Zeal (Su): Useable once per week. Duration: 1 hour :rolleyes: Damage Reduction 5/evil Weapons treated as good-aligned for the purposes of overcoming DR. Treated as having the haste spell cast upon him. This ability is one I use when combining the CW paladin w/out spells variant with the PHII variant w/out horse. It normally replaces the paladin's 13th level ability to specially heal his horse, so it's designed for 13th level.
Xanthanon 09-19-06, 11:34 PM	DM gave my dwarven paladin an extra feat instead of a mount (mounted dwarf?). Party was always underground fighting evil badguys, so he would have never had the opportunity to ride the mount anyway. Chose Extra Smiting which has been used to effect in just about every subsequent gaming session. Thanks DM!
Lopke 09-26-06, 01:19 AM	Ideas: A) Bonus feats, specifically geared towards the Divine Feats from Complete Warrior and Complete Divine. 5th level gain Bonus Feat, 10th level gain Extra Turning, 15th and 20th Bonus feats. (Sorry, boring I know, but an option). B) A weapon (the type determined by your deity) can be summoned to your hand. It's power increases with your level. It starts off with limited sentience, and can be considered an ally. It's alignment matches yours. 5th-7th level: +1 enhancement. Provides Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for its type. Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 6. 8th-10th level: +2 enhancement (either +2 weapon bonus, or +1 weapon bonus and a +1 special ability. Once chosen, cannot be changed until next power increase). Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8. Limited Awareness: Empathy, can convey emotions to wielder. 11th-13th: +3 enhancement. Bonus feat (granted when the weapon is wielded, must be associated with the weapon). Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10. 14th-17th: +4 enhancement. Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12. Awareness: Sentience, can communicate with wielder through telepathy. 18-20th: +5 enhancement. Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 14. Bonus feat. Grants a greater power (as intelligent item). This is a rough guide, from memory, since I am at work. C) Armor, loosely based like the weapon above, though not intelligent. Only an idea, and never used by me. It is also summoned, instantly appearing on the wearer (a benefit by itself, since you don't have armor donning time). Grants enhancements by level, with emphasis on defensive feats. D) A faster spell progression (starting from paladin 5th level), with access to 5th or 6th level spells (have to make your own spell lists) by the end. Ideas include: 5th level-Cure Critical Wounds, Disrupting Weapon, Protection From Energy 6th level-Raise Dead, Flame Strike, Righteous Might, Spell Resistance E) I like the Favored Enemy idea. Can include: Evil (yes, much more broad than the ranger, but hey it's the paladin), Undead (complete with damage bonus), specific deity worshippers (like Nerull, or Gruumsh). F) A magic item granted by the paladin's deity, matching the power level of the character. Magic item changes every few levels (paladin wakes up to find the item has changed form) to the new power level. This magic item does not count towards the total wealth level of a standard character. [I have not tried this, and it could be overpowering, it's just an idea] That's all for now. Cheers, Lopke
Darth Sephiroth 09-26-06, 01:52 AM	True Believer Feat and a Relic would probably work well, perhaps an one or two additional Divine Feats later on as well
CryoSilver 09-26-06, 01:52 AM	I commonly grant an extra smite evil per day at level 5 and a bonus feat at level 10 as compensation, and it's good enough like that.
rydi123 09-27-06, 02:23 AM	most of this has been brought up already, but i thought i would restate some of the best ideas imo. 1)something similar to divine might, or even a flat charisma to damage. 2)a holy item 3)a couple of aura buff effects (look at divine mind or heroes of battle for examples) 4)favored enemy, or favored enemy-chosen opposed alignment 5)a feat at any level you would get a horsey-dependent ability
Diffan 10-03-06, 04:03 AM	most of this has been brought up already, but i thought i would restate some of the best ideas imo. 1)something similar to divine might, or even a flat charisma to damage. 2)a holy item 3)a couple of aura buff effects (look at divine mind or heroes of battle for examples) 4)favored enemy, or favored enemy-chosen opposed alignment 5)a feat at any level you would get a horsey-dependent ability All great ideas. Though I still have to say that charging smite is still the best option. If you play it right, with that ability replacing the mount, you could deal somewhere around 60+ damage on the 1st swing. Here's how it goes..... Human Paladin 10th level with Cha of 20, Str of 18 and a +1 holy greatsword. round 1- Charge into enemy. Use divine metamagic(quickenspell) to cast divine sacrifice and take 10 pts of damage. This adds 5d6 damage to your next successful hit. Use smite ability and full power attack. If you hit with the weapon you deal 2d6+27(str & pwr atk),+2d6 holy,+5d6 (from spell), +30 from smite. Using average rolls, the damage would be 84. If the creature is anything but undead, ooze, or construct, that's a fort save or die..... wow!
Cifer 10-03-06, 08:22 AM	Okay. Since someone actually suggested paying $30 for a houserule, I will now exclude "charging smite ability" from possible trades. What about paying whatever-a-bus-ticket-costs-in-your-city to get to the local games store and just read the book? Most stores I know have no problems with that.
DMEric 10-03-06, 09:14 AM	That, and I hate WoW with a passion. You poor, deprived soul:weep: Best computer game ever made, hands down.
Azazyll 10-03-06, 09:31 AM	You poor, deprived soul:weep: Best computer game ever made, hands down. I don't hate it myself, but I hate that people play it without knowing a damn thing about warcraft. That was the joy of WCIII and frozen throne, the background was so neat. Also, if I played it, I would never get anything else done. Off the side issue, Sword and Sorcery made a bunch of paladin prestige classes, one of which took the holy sword idea (Mithril knight or some such, in Mithral: City of the Golem) and three others (an iron knight siege specialist and weapon crafter, a gold knight healer, and a silver knight supernatural-being-slayer, all in Player's guid to Ghelspad). Both are now on sale for cheap at the Sword and Sorcery web site. Plenty of ideas in there. I for oe really like the magic sword idea as a replacement. Back to the tangent, Half-Life is the best computer game ever made.
trapdoor alligator 10-03-06, 09:37 AM	We don't like pets either. I have usually given paladins full turning as a cleric instead of a mount. They can make use of divine feats and are well on their way to filling the cleric role--really, their high cha makes them a better turner than most clerics. This solution also has the virtue of simplicity. ... Also, PHBII rocks. One of the most worthwhile books around.
Diffan 10-03-06, 12:19 PM	...Also, PHBII rocks. One of the most worthwhile books around. Hear Hear! ________________________________________ _________________________ -Light laughter and sweet water.
FnordBear 10-03-06, 12:32 PM	My personal house rule is to grant them the Item Familiar feat instead of the special mount (though they can take a mount instead if they wish) with the caveat that the feat can only be applied to thier diety's favored weapon or to a piece of armor. Harkens a bit back to the good ole 2e days and paladins getting thier holy swords.
Wyrm_Pilot 10-03-06, 12:50 PM	How about +10 Move and d12 HD? Makes up for the lost movement of the mount and the loss of a meat shield. Kinda steps on the barbarian's toes though. Not really - certainly not more than the new Knight class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) does. Even with more hit points (on average), the paladin's role in combat doesn't change to the "not so much armor, berserk fury" combatant. And it's not like the barbarian has an exclusive on moving faster - the monk, and anyone with boots of striding and springing, are also into this trick. Seems pretty fair to me, especially if it doesn't begin until 5th level... Cheers, Wyrm Pilot ____________________ The Keeper: Did you have to drop this on the ground, Darien? Darien Fawkes: I was on my way to get a breakfast burrito when I pulled a rat skeleton out of my pocket. What did you want me to do? Hug him? Pet him? Call him George? Life... is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, and has a few pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast. -- Douglas Noël Adams
Hell_Bane 10-03-06, 03:26 PM	I haven't read the whole thread so maybe it has been mentionned before, but if you want the knight in shinning armor concept you can always use the Knight in PHB2 instead of the paladin, unless you really don't want to do away with the divine aspect of the character. Some middle ground could be taking your first levels in Paladin and stopping before you get the mount, continuing in Knight from there. Also, a Lawful Fighter or a Samurai (any version) can also fit that role very well.
Azzy 10-03-06, 03:37 PM	IB) A weapon (the type determined by your deity) can be summoned to your hand. It's power increases with your level. It starts off with limited sentience, and can be considered an ally. It's alignment matches yours. I used something similar to this before back in 2e (minus the sentience and weapon type determined by deity). Wrote it up with the assistance of the DM I was playing under, and dubbed it "Weapon of Faith." Every so often I keep meaning to revise to 3.5--but then I just get lazy. ;)
OneWinged4ngel 10-03-06, 03:51 PM	Ever since Complete Warrior introduced me to Divine Might and Divine Shield, I find the "calvalry" feat progression to be less and less appealing to my paladin builds. So, I started asking myself: "What would be a fair to give a paladin in exchange for his mount?" I've boiled down the advantages of the mount: +1 attack bonus for higher ground Increased movement speed Charging while weilding a lance Scent Descent Jump skill (see, under Ride descriptor in PHB, leap) Hoof attacks The mount also possesses disadvantages: Unwieldy during a dungeon crawl Imposes a -1 penalty to attack and damage rolls if killed Responsible charging occurs once in a combat. Eats into the PCs wealth (magic barding, horseshoes, etc.) Doesn't stand a chance of hitting high CR monsters I can buy a horse if I really needed one I'm not interested in hearing how wonderful the mount really is; I posted my thoughts just to demonstrate how much this really bugs me. What I'm asking the forum is: What would be a balanced trade-off for the inability to call a mount? PHB II has a variant called Charging Smite that replaces the mount ability. It's quite good.
burningwizard 10-03-06, 05:24 PM	It seems to me that the main reason you're wanting to get rid of the paladin's mount is because it's a horse, and horses are cumbersome in most dungeon-y situations (dungeons, castles, sewers, etc.) So pick a different creature. Look to your fantasy references. Horses not working well in dungeons? Get a spider. Vertical tunnels and mineshafts become paved roads with sticky feet. Enter the spider-mounts of the drow from Menzoberranzan. Get a giant serpent. The Fremen rode giant worms in Dune. Or giant frogs. Or giant bees. In fact, take a look at most bugs/insects/crawly things, and then imagine them blown up to rideable size. You'll find that the best mounts for a given environment are found IN that environment. No, a giant hornet might not be the stereotypicle "charging steed", but this IS fantasy, after all. Or just get a master transmogrofist to make you a horse with wings, scorpion tail, spider legs, power windows, and an M-60 gun mount. Just my thoughts.
guru7892 10-04-06, 12:26 AM	Best computer game ever made, hands down. I'd play WoW... but I think cocaine or meth would be a better idea. I have a freind who plays, and get this, I said there was a new staff, the staff of Galadhrim and she started checking web-sites. anyway, Paladins shouldn't be so mount biased. It seems like a ton of abilities were thrown out for one that only shines in certain types of encounters. they could keep the 'epona' ability and probably add others without creating a totaly brocken class... anyone up for a Divine Rage?
Grot_BoneGrinder 10-04-06, 01:41 AM	I don't know if you are still reading reply's to this thread or if this has been mentioned before, but one idea that has been played in our sessions was to have a dodge bonus to AC = to the paladins Charisma. It's powerful, I know, but so is a Paladin mounted on a Celestial Warhorse! JFG
Bob_just_Bob 10-04-06, 08:31 AM	something to that goes along the lines of the intelligent weapon, is a legacy weapon, i really liked that whole idea and frequently use them in my campiagns, if you have the book in the back there a section on characters making their own legacy weapons in-game, it's slightly over powered, but it's not grossly over powered, there are xp costs and all that jazz, just a suggestion.
Karlindel 10-04-06, 11:13 PM	You could consider replacing the mount with the ability of the Crusader from the Book of Nine Swords. Basically, they get a pool that can delay damage until the end of their turn. The pool gets larger as they go up in level. They also get a bonus to attack and damage based on the amount of damage in the delayed damage pool. It has the advantage of giving the paladin time to heal himself, or give one last swing before he goes down.
Lioneking 10-04-06, 11:53 PM	I believe a replacement used in an alternate setting (for dwarves esp) was extra uses of the smite ability.
Vengeblade 10-05-06, 06:37 PM	I got tired of paladins always being the same while every other class has some flexibility, so here's a list of all the variant options I made for it: First off, they no longer have detect evil. They no longer have smite evil, it is now just smite. They no longer have their turn undead ability. They must be Lawful Good. They get skill points equal to 4+int modifier and 4 times that on first level. They also have Balance, Climb, Gather information, Jump, and Tumble as class skills. Improved divine grace: Intended for Paladins on the high seas, at 2nd level a paladin with this variant ability gains her charisma bonus (if any) to her Armor Class, this works for touch and flat footed, but is lost if the paladin is held immobile. She loses this benefit if she wears medium or heavy armor or carries a medium or heavy load. This ability stacks (does not override) a Paladin’s divine grace. This ability replaces a Paladin’s lay on hands ability. Divine Control: At 3rd level a paladin with this ability gains an insight bonus equal to her charisma bonus (if any) on balance, climb, and tumble checks while on a ship or other unstable terrain. This ability replaces her Aura of courage ability. Retributive Strike: At 5th level a paladin with this ability is like a divine fury in combat. Every time she makes a smite attack against a foe, she gains a bonus on attack rolls equal to her charisma bonus and a damage bonus equal to her paladin level for each previous successful smite attack on that foe. This ability replaces a Paladin’s special mount. Inquisitor: At 6th level, a Paladin trains to seek out the evils that lie in the towns and cities she protects. She gains +1 bonus on gather information and sense motive checks. This ability increase by 1 every three levels after this (9th, 12th, 15th, 18th, etc). This replaces a Paladin’s remove disease ability.
Ashok_Lal 10-05-06, 10:20 PM	My Paladin didn't have enough skill points to get ride. (skill prereq for PrC.) but it did not even ocour to me to ask for anything else in place of it. I chose not to ride. So it should be my problem. If you get into the habit of taking special abilaties & swaping them for others you will soon have a balance problem. Also if he can do it why can't i do it atitude of the other players at the table. If you CHOOSE not to use a special abillaty of a class you should not be compensated.:hides:
IrishRover 10-05-06, 11:32 PM	Craft (Glue) is always a class skill, and they get skill Focus: Craft (Glue) as a bonus feat... <Evil laugh>