Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Steelgryphon 07-07-04, 12:08 PM	How dose it stack up against the others? Tyranny Slaughter Freedom Generic
Kintara 07-07-04, 03:18 PM	Well, they aren't all that much different, really.
Hand of Vecna 07-07-04, 03:19 PM	How do LE, CE, CG, and LG stack up against one another? ;)
Quarion Silverfrond 07-07-04, 06:55 PM	It's all a matter of perception.
Cinder 07-07-04, 11:38 PM	a waaay cooler picture. If you look real close you can see his wallet's got 'BMF' on it. (cough) I like the variants, paladin or otherwise because they offer more choices, and choice is a good thing.
Objulen 07-08-04, 02:31 PM	If running the paladin variant, I think it would make more sense to disallow the blackgaurd prestige class and call the evil paladins the 'blackgaurd of slaughter' and 'blackgaurd of tyranny'.
Quarion Silverfrond 07-08-04, 04:42 PM	Originally posted by Objulen If running the paladin variant, I think it would make more sense to disallow the blackgaurd prestige class and call the evil paladins the 'blackgaurd of slaughter' and 'blackgaurd of tyranny'. The thing about that is that the evil paladins were designied to become black gaurds at higher levels. They are prety much just Anti- paladins.
Lord Zeb 07-08-04, 10:22 PM	Originally posted by Steelgryphon How dose it stack up against the others? Tyranny ---------> Evenly matched ;) Slaughter ------> Tyranny Better Freedom ---------> Evenly matched opposites Generic ---------> Tyranny Better Cheerio, Zeb
Camellan 07-09-04, 10:21 AM	The only problem with the Evil Paladins is that they have no access to self healing. Cure spells don't show up anywhere on their list. They don't get Lay on Hands either. Blackguards get the Healing spells. Dunno if that's enough difference to make it viable in a world with the Evil Paladins. Of cource, you can have a NE Blackguard. There's not a NE Paladin class yet.
squishycube 07-12-04, 05:50 AM	@Camellan: The evil paladins get the inflict version of lay on hands, and inflict spells cure undead. An evil paladin with undead followers/cohorts seems logical to me.
Objulen 07-13-04, 03:43 PM	From Silverfrond The thing about that is that the evil paladins were designied to become black gaurds at higher levels. They are prety much just Anti- paladins. I disagree. Both evil paladins and blackgaurds are 'anti-paladins'; the difference is that evil paladins are a 20 level class while a blackgaurd is a 10 level prestige class. The Blackgaurd gives rudundant abilities and access to more spells and such. Further, it is like having two of the same thing in one game -- it would be like allowing both the 20 level normal paladin class and the 15 level prestigious paladin class into your game at the same time, which doesn't make much sense without making the two different in the story, and even then one shouldn't be allowed to be both, only one or the other. From Camellon The only problem with the Evil Paladins is that they have no access to self healing. Cure spells don't show up anywhere on their list. They don't get Lay on Hands either. Blackguards get the Healing spells. Dunno if that's enough difference to make it viable in a world with the Evil Paladins. Of cource, you can have a NE Blackguard. There's not a NE Paladin class yet. On the first count, I think that is just the price of being an evil paladin; you don't get the healing but you have more offense, and it's the typical D&D way to give inflict or offensive spells to evil divine type classes. And paladins are usually set with extreme alignments. I suppose they were designed with that to add a bit of inherent personal conflict between alignment componants and to fit with the knightly ideal the origional paladin was supposed to embody, though it would make more sense to have only a neutral good paladin -- a champion of good, which in my opionion is what a paladin is ultimately designed to be, would not be concerned with either law or chaos.
Iceflame55 07-22-04, 03:20 AM	I disagree. Both evil paladins and blackgaurds are 'anti-paladins'; the difference is that evil paladins are a 20 level class while a blackgaurd is a 10 level prestige class. The Blackgaurd gives rudundant abilities and access to more spells and such. Further, it is like having two of the same thing in one game -- it would be like allowing both the 20 level normal paladin class and the 15 level prestigious paladin class into your game at the same time, which doesn't make much sense without making the two different in the story, and even then one shouldn't be allowed to be both, only one or the other. I disagree on this; all one would have to do is have a Blackguard to be a fiendish Evil paladin, or a person that felt the 'Call' of a Dark God later in life. This is especially true if you hold to the idea that a Paladin of any kind can't multi-class at will without giving up any chance of advancing as a Paladin, while a Blackguard can ! And as for the Evil Paladins not having access to Cure spells, I will point out that they DO have them, just not at the same levels. The Paladin of Slaughter for example gets CLW at 2nd level, CMW at 3rd level, and CSW at 4th level. I can see why they had them at the extremes of alignment (LG, CG, LE, CE), namelt because they are Champions (Read as Zealots) of their faith. Of course, I can't say I'm not looking to add my own twist to the Variant Paladins, either. :devil:
Camellan 07-22-04, 08:31 AM	Originally posted by squishycube @Camellan: The evil paladins get the inflict version of lay on hands, and inflict spells cure undead. An evil paladin with undead followers/cohorts seems logical to me. That would be cool. I was more commenting on a reason for Blackguards, when there's a nifty core class that fits the same niche. I'm using a Paladin of Slaughter as the Bad Guy in the next adventure, and I'm just worried about "retreat and heal thyself" as a tactic. Ah, well, that's what Potions of Cure Serious wounds are for, I guess.
Dawnspeaker 07-22-04, 08:38 AM	The way I use the new paladins and the blackguard is as follows: A starting character can choose one of the alternate or main paladin classes, and advance as normal. If a good paladin "Honor or Freedom" ends up becoming an evil bugger, they would take the Blackguard PrC. I don't allow them the option to multi-class into the Paladin of Slaughter or Tyranny. NE beings who make deals with fiends, etc. also become Blackguards. (I also think it helps represent the Sneak Attack ability a bit better)
Camellan 07-22-04, 08:39 AM	Originally posted by Objulen I disagree. Both evil paladins and blackgaurds are 'anti-paladins'; the difference is that evil paladins are a 20 level class while a blackgaurd is a 10 level prestige class. The Blackgaurd gives rudundant abilities and access to more spells and such. Further, it is like having two of the same thing in one game -- it would be like allowing both the 20 level normal paladin class and the 15 level prestigious paladin class into your game at the same time, which doesn't make much sense without making the two different in the story, and even then one shouldn't be allowed to be both, only one or the other. Unless you're doing something wacky, there's no way for a LG paladin to fall by the wayside, without the Blackguard class. I suppose you could allow the Paladin of Justice to swap out levels one for one with the better choice of Evil Paladins. (If the paladin fell into the "slaughter the innocents" type, he becomes a Paladin of Slaughter. If he switched to a "tyrant on horseback" then a Paladin of Tyranny. Then you could do away with the blackguard entirely.
Camellan 07-22-04, 08:40 AM	Originally posted by Iceflame55 And as for the Evil Paladins not having access to Cure spells, I will point out that they DO have them, just not at the same levels. The Paladin of Slaughter for example gets CLW at 2nd level, CMW at 3rd level, and CSW at 4th level. Missed that. Thanks! Mwahahahahaha.
Iceflame55 07-22-04, 01:58 PM	Originally posted by Camellan Missed that. Thanks! Mwahahahahaha. Always glad to help where I can! :) :)