Paragons? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Paragons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Khadesh
09-10-04, 06:28 PM What is so good about them? Everyone raves about them. Why? Educate me, please.
cambric
09-13-04, 02:12 PM There are better threads that explains more in detail about Paragons, but here's why I love them:

First: To me, adventures are a "cut above the rest" of society. Think of Professional Sports...there are "good, very good, great, and exceptional" players even in their world. Think "Barry Bonds, Michael Jordan, Jerry Rice, etc...they were the 'exceptionals', but you still had other "pro players too." That's where Racial Paragons come into play...they have 'something' different.

Second: This gives every adventure a better chance at surviving the lower to mid-levels. Once you get to 7-9th levels, normally you can get magical devices that will aid your survival...but at lower levels, you need the "extras" to give you that 'edge'.

Third: Every race is different, special ablilities and such...so a Elf Paragon Wizard is definitely different than the Human Paragon Wizard and both will be different than Gnome Paragon Wizard...etc, though they are all Wizards. Role playing has definite difference too.

I'm sure other people have their own reasons...and if you look around this board, you'll see a lot of great ideas to use!!

Cam
Dark Cyril
09-14-04, 06:19 PM Yeah. It took me a while to figure out why the paragon classes were being raved about. But then I created a couple of NPCs that used paragon levels. They are definately a cut above the rest when compared to the normal adventurer. Higher bonuses to skills that they already have racial bonuses to, extra damage against certain races, improved spell like abilities, a +2 bonus to an ability score (at 3rd level!) all give the character survivability at lower levels and make your Halfling Rogue different from the normal Halfling Rogue.
Khadesh
09-14-04, 06:45 PM So, you can have a human paragon as a race, adventure till 3rd level and then develop a class too? So I could be a Human Paragon Hexblade?
cambric
09-14-04, 06:59 PM Yes, definitely!!

My current campaign has 2 Paragon elves, one being a Wizard and the other a Cleric...1 Paragon Human Fighter...1 Paragon Half-Elf Ranger...and 1 Paragon Dwarven Fighter.

And it's so much easier on me, because I can throw creatures at them and they can take it...especially the Dwarven Fighter...OMG, his strength and con is amazing! But yet, the human fighter can hold his own too...so though we have 2 fighters, both are so different...it adds a lot of Role Playing fun and my group LOVES that we went with Paragons.

Cam

edited for spelling...darn "through" and "throw"... :teach:
saucercrab
09-14-04, 08:02 PM I like the paragons because they're (or some of them are) really good for multiclassing. For example, the human, drow, & elf paragons have good skill selections/points and advance spellcasting. The extra +2 to an ability is another great benefit.
Khadesh
09-14-04, 08:15 PM So a paragon only has 3 levels for the racial class? I assume that you start the character as whatever class and the pargaon like a limited multi-class?
cambric
09-14-04, 08:48 PM You can either have them start in a class, let's take Human Rogue.

First level: Rogue
Second level: Human Paragon
Third level: Rogue
Fourth level: Human Paragon
Fifth level: Human Paragon
2nd level Rogue/3rd level Human Paragon

OR

First level: Human Paragon
Second level: Human Paragon
Third level: Human Pargaon
Fourth level: Rogue
3rd level Human Pargon/1st level Rogue

It doesn't matter how or when you do it...but I like my players to start out as their Paragons, then class into what they want. There's a link, and I apologize I don't have it, but it's on this board, that someone created Paragons through the 5th level, and it's sweet!!

Anyhow, I do the 3 Paragon levels, and then they move into what ever class they want.

Hope this helps,
Cam
Khadesh
09-14-04, 08:51 PM Thank you. I understand now.
Kurama Youko
09-16-04, 09:12 AM If you start them off in Paragon though, it doesnt seem like the get the full amount of skill points due a first lv character. In the skill point sections of each racial paragon I dont see the x4 thingy. So does that mean you have less skill points than a normal member of your race who opt for the class lv first?

I to like the racial paragons Im still trying to convence some of my friends that these class are very much viable in that they make for over all better characters. Like someone mentioned a Elf Paragon 2/wiz 3/Elf Par, has better Saves, BAB, HP, Skill Selection plus 3 distinct class features that make him more capable than a Elf 5/wiz.
cambric
09-16-04, 02:25 PM Paragon's get the x4 at first level...I think the Human Paragon gets 4 skill points + int. So, when they start at the Paragon first level, they get the skill points to put into what-ever their race states they have.

When they start their FIRST class, they also get the x4. Sure, a lot of skill points, but again: Adventurers RULE!!

My campaign uses skills a lot, so it's important for them to have a wide variety of abilities.

If a PC multi-classes later, for instance from Rogue to Fighter, they do NOT get the 4x skill points for the figher. I only do with the Paragon and first Class.

Reason?: Because I like them to have the Paragon's abilities...so the first session is mostly them Role-playing out their character and getting used to what they want to do...and to show what they've learned over the years. Time consuming? Sure!! Fun...?? Absolutely!! My players love doing it this way...it's like a time to get used to what type of character you're going to play...people getting to know each other, etc...

Again, my way might be too over-powering skills wise, but I think it's worth it since I get what I believe are the "superior" talents of the world. I don't want "Joe Blow" going out to get his butt handed to him because there are 4 orcs passing by...I want my group to be able to go out with confidence and feel they actually can go out and survive.

Cam
RealMad
09-16-04, 04:54 PM Paragon's get the x4 at first level...I think the Human Paragon gets 4 skill points + int. So, when they start at the Paragon first level, they get the skill points to put into what-ever their race states they have.

When they start their FIRST class, they also get the x4. Sure, a lot of skill points, but again: Adventurers RULE!!

Where is this stated? The way I read it, you just get the x4 skill points at your first level, Paragon or not.
cambric
09-16-04, 08:26 PM Oops...was busy and didn't realize what your actual question was...sorry!!!

It states, "Paragon class....even at 1st level...(in which case they get four times the normal skill points...)

I, as a DM, chose to also let them take it at first level of their class, per the PHB rules.
Cam
Will Brandiman
09-17-04, 05:51 AM Oops...was busy and didn't realize what your actual question was...sorry!!!

It states, "Paragon class....even at 1st level...(in which case they get four times the normal skill points...)

I, as a DM, chose to also let them take it at first level of their class, per the PHB rules.
Cam Fair enough but I think that would have to be a house rule as I can't find anything official to back it up.
gbnogkfs
09-17-04, 02:45 PM Your posts are obscure... by the rules, every creature gets 4 times the normal amount of skill points for their first HD overall, and that's it.
cambric
09-17-04, 02:54 PM Sorry...I was stating what I do at FIRST level only...afterwards, I follow the PHB...or Unearthed Arcana for Paragons. They still get their skill points per the usual...just at first level, I do house rule it that they get 4x the amount, then the usual, per class. The original question was about what happens at first level, not afterwards...sorry it didn't get explained out.

To further explain, the Paragon's skill points are only allowed for what their main skills, I do not allow "class crossing", because when the do choose their class, then they can decide on what they want to do.

Again, it's more for "flavor" and "Role playing" than anything...it's not like they get an over-whelming amount of points. My campaigns I emphasize skills, so this gives them something more to use...and we only have 3 players, so it's nice that they have many skills covered.

Cam
Gadodel
09-18-04, 04:45 PM What is so good about them? Everyone raves about them. Why? Educate me, please.
I just like them because they add a 'Superhero' element without necessarily being really high level.
Jaerom Darkwind
09-19-04, 02:04 AM The 5-level classes can be found in the link in my sig. I'm quite proud of them. Among other things, they fix some problems I ran into when using them at 1st level.
cambric
09-19-04, 07:54 AM Yours was one of the links I was referring to, but couldn't find it that day. I have begun to offer your levels to my group. We are meeting soon and they really liked what you've done with them.

Cam
ninjarabbit
10-15-04, 04:00 PM Basically they're PrCs with no requirements other than race.
Jaerom Darkwind
10-15-04, 06:16 PM Basically they're PrCs with no requirements other than race.Not really a good analogy, since they can also be taken at 1st level, but PrCs can't.
Ricohard_Draconis
10-15-04, 06:35 PM Not really a good analogy, since they can also be taken at 1st level, but PrCs can't.
actually theres no rule ( i think) that says you couldn't take a PrC at first level, except that you don't comply with the requirements to enter that class. there for if the only requirement is race then you can enter the PrC at first level.
Nedlum
10-15-04, 11:34 PM cambric: So, in your game the charecters start out Paragon, then multiclass into normal classes?

I'm curious how you figure in the bonus spells-per-day, then. Do you give the gnome two levels of Bard, or does he gain them retrospectivly once he takes one level of it?
Jaerom Darkwind
10-16-04, 12:28 AM cambric: So, in your game the charecters start out Paragon, then multiclass into normal classes?

I'm curious how you figure in the bonus spells-per-day, then. Do you give the gnome two levels of Bard, or does he gain them retrospectivly once he takes one level of it?That's the only reasonable way to do it, IOM. (Logically, the classes are either balanced with the spellcasting or they aren't. If they're balanced with spellcasting, they're significantly underpowered without it, wheras if they're overpowered with spellcasting, we can't rely on anything in the book to be balanced or useful.)
cambric
10-16-04, 08:24 AM Their first levels are Paragon and if a gnome goes bard, he gets the levels when he turns first level bard. Yeah, at 1st level bard, the gnome would be 3rd level casting abilitly.

They are over-powering if I don't make the encounters tougher...which I do. :D

For my campaigns, Paragon's are "flavor"...I really like what Jaerom Darkwind with Paragons and follow that a lot. As I stated in my earlier posts, I feel that successful adventurers are Paragon's...because they are better than the "normal" folk. Just as professional sport figures are "better" physically than the normal person...not that someone can't rise up and succeed, it's just become a "norm" for my campaigns.

Cam
philopharynx
10-16-04, 01:16 PM Though, I find that paragons are the most effective if you mix them with the race's favored class. Of course human levels help any class and half-elves are still gimped even as paragons.
trapspringer
10-16-04, 02:49 PM It isn't even really a power thing. It is just a really good idea.
Uratoh
10-16-04, 06:05 PM I'm going to make a Dwarf that is The. Ultimate. Dwarf. he's aiming for Fighter 7, Paragon 3, Dwarven Defender 10. he wields a dwarven waraxe and buckler axe for defense, and has a lucky mug he always carries with him.
El_Machinae
10-16-04, 11:44 PM What does a dwarf paragon get over the three levels? I figure it's okay to post something like that due to the OGL.
Uratoh
10-17-04, 12:33 AM what you'd expect...better darkvision, racial skills, con boost...like all of the paragon classes, it makes them more, well, dwarfy.
Jaerom Darkwind
10-17-04, 02:56 AM The first 3 levels in all of my paragon classes were largely unchanged, with all changes listed in the intro, so you can look at those (the link is in my sig).
ninjarabbit
10-17-04, 09:06 AM One thing I do like about paragons is that it makes half elves and half orcs worthwhile since they can take 2 different paragons.
Jaerom Darkwind
10-17-04, 01:19 PM Wait, what's a Buckler Axe?
Uratoh
10-17-04, 02:54 PM A Buckler Axe is a dwarven optional racial weapon (exotic normally). It's a buckler, that can be used as an emergency slashing weapon. You of course lose the shield bonus doing so.
HuskarlOdinson
10-18-04, 08:27 PM Paragons are great on many levels.

1. As said above, the beef up low/mid-level characters and make the standard "I'm above the status quo, but I represent the best aspects of it".

2. NPCs: Great stuff for making townsfolk and the general folk come alive.

3. Split Classing: Pargons boost the natural direction of various races thus making later split classing more lucrative and Prestige Classes attainable.

What a great concept. My hats off to the Unearthed Arcana design team on this one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khadesh 09-10-04, 06:28 PM	What is so good about them? Everyone raves about them. Why? Educate me, please.
cambric 09-13-04, 02:12 PM	There are better threads that explains more in detail about Paragons, but here's why I love them: First: To me, adventures are a "cut above the rest" of society. Think of Professional Sports...there are "good, very good, great, and exceptional" players even in their world. Think "Barry Bonds, Michael Jordan, Jerry Rice, etc...they were the 'exceptionals', but you still had other "pro players too." That's where Racial Paragons come into play...they have 'something' different. Second: This gives every adventure a better chance at surviving the lower to mid-levels. Once you get to 7-9th levels, normally you can get magical devices that will aid your survival...but at lower levels, you need the "extras" to give you that 'edge'. Third: Every race is different, special ablilities and such...so a Elf Paragon Wizard is definitely different than the Human Paragon Wizard and both will be different than Gnome Paragon Wizard...etc, though they are all Wizards. Role playing has definite difference too. I'm sure other people have their own reasons...and if you look around this board, you'll see a lot of great ideas to use!! Cam
Dark Cyril 09-14-04, 06:19 PM	Yeah. It took me a while to figure out why the paragon classes were being raved about. But then I created a couple of NPCs that used paragon levels. They are definately a cut above the rest when compared to the normal adventurer. Higher bonuses to skills that they already have racial bonuses to, extra damage against certain races, improved spell like abilities, a +2 bonus to an ability score (at 3rd level!) all give the character survivability at lower levels and make your Halfling Rogue different from the normal Halfling Rogue.
Khadesh 09-14-04, 06:45 PM	So, you can have a human paragon as a race, adventure till 3rd level and then develop a class too? So I could be a Human Paragon Hexblade?
cambric 09-14-04, 06:59 PM	Yes, definitely!! My current campaign has 2 Paragon elves, one being a Wizard and the other a Cleric...1 Paragon Human Fighter...1 Paragon Half-Elf Ranger...and 1 Paragon Dwarven Fighter. And it's so much easier on me, because I can throw creatures at them and they can take it...especially the Dwarven Fighter...OMG, his strength and con is amazing! But yet, the human fighter can hold his own too...so though we have 2 fighters, both are so different...it adds a lot of Role Playing fun and my group LOVES that we went with Paragons. Cam edited for spelling...darn "through" and "throw"... :teach:
saucercrab 09-14-04, 08:02 PM	I like the paragons because they're (or some of them are) really good for multiclassing. For example, the human, drow, & elf paragons have good skill selections/points and advance spellcasting. The extra +2 to an ability is another great benefit.
Khadesh 09-14-04, 08:15 PM	So a paragon only has 3 levels for the racial class? I assume that you start the character as whatever class and the pargaon like a limited multi-class?
cambric 09-14-04, 08:48 PM	You can either have them start in a class, let's take Human Rogue. First level: Rogue Second level: Human Paragon Third level: Rogue Fourth level: Human Paragon Fifth level: Human Paragon 2nd level Rogue/3rd level Human Paragon OR First level: Human Paragon Second level: Human Paragon Third level: Human Pargaon Fourth level: Rogue 3rd level Human Pargon/1st level Rogue It doesn't matter how or when you do it...but I like my players to start out as their Paragons, then class into what they want. There's a link, and I apologize I don't have it, but it's on this board, that someone created Paragons through the 5th level, and it's sweet!! Anyhow, I do the 3 Paragon levels, and then they move into what ever class they want. Hope this helps, Cam
Khadesh 09-14-04, 08:51 PM	Thank you. I understand now.
Kurama Youko 09-16-04, 09:12 AM	If you start them off in Paragon though, it doesnt seem like the get the full amount of skill points due a first lv character. In the skill point sections of each racial paragon I dont see the x4 thingy. So does that mean you have less skill points than a normal member of your race who opt for the class lv first? I to like the racial paragons Im still trying to convence some of my friends that these class are very much viable in that they make for over all better characters. Like someone mentioned a Elf Paragon 2/wiz 3/Elf Par, has better Saves, BAB, HP, Skill Selection plus 3 distinct class features that make him more capable than a Elf 5/wiz.
cambric 09-16-04, 02:25 PM	Paragon's get the x4 at first level...I think the Human Paragon gets 4 skill points + int. So, when they start at the Paragon first level, they get the skill points to put into what-ever their race states they have. When they start their FIRST class, they also get the x4. Sure, a lot of skill points, but again: Adventurers RULE!! My campaign uses skills a lot, so it's important for them to have a wide variety of abilities. If a PC multi-classes later, for instance from Rogue to Fighter, they do NOT get the 4x skill points for the figher. I only do with the Paragon and first Class. Reason?: Because I like them to have the Paragon's abilities...so the first session is mostly them Role-playing out their character and getting used to what they want to do...and to show what they've learned over the years. Time consuming? Sure!! Fun...?? Absolutely!! My players love doing it this way...it's like a time to get used to what type of character you're going to play...people getting to know each other, etc... Again, my way might be too over-powering skills wise, but I think it's worth it since I get what I believe are the "superior" talents of the world. I don't want "Joe Blow" going out to get his butt handed to him because there are 4 orcs passing by...I want my group to be able to go out with confidence and feel they actually can go out and survive. Cam
RealMad 09-16-04, 04:54 PM	Paragon's get the x4 at first level...I think the Human Paragon gets 4 skill points + int. So, when they start at the Paragon first level, they get the skill points to put into what-ever their race states they have. When they start their FIRST class, they also get the x4. Sure, a lot of skill points, but again: Adventurers RULE!! Where is this stated? The way I read it, you just get the x4 skill points at your first level, Paragon or not.
cambric 09-16-04, 08:26 PM	Oops...was busy and didn't realize what your actual question was...sorry!!! It states, "Paragon class....even at 1st level...(in which case they get four times the normal skill points...) I, as a DM, chose to also let them take it at first level of their class, per the PHB rules. Cam
Will Brandiman 09-17-04, 05:51 AM	Oops...was busy and didn't realize what your actual question was...sorry!!! It states, "Paragon class....even at 1st level...(in which case they get four times the normal skill points...) I, as a DM, chose to also let them take it at first level of their class, per the PHB rules. Cam Fair enough but I think that would have to be a house rule as I can't find anything official to back it up.
gbnogkfs 09-17-04, 02:45 PM	Your posts are obscure... by the rules, every creature gets 4 times the normal amount of skill points for their first HD overall, and that's it.
cambric 09-17-04, 02:54 PM	Sorry...I was stating what I do at FIRST level only...afterwards, I follow the PHB...or Unearthed Arcana for Paragons. They still get their skill points per the usual...just at first level, I do house rule it that they get 4x the amount, then the usual, per class. The original question was about what happens at first level, not afterwards...sorry it didn't get explained out. To further explain, the Paragon's skill points are only allowed for what their main skills, I do not allow "class crossing", because when the do choose their class, then they can decide on what they want to do. Again, it's more for "flavor" and "Role playing" than anything...it's not like they get an over-whelming amount of points. My campaigns I emphasize skills, so this gives them something more to use...and we only have 3 players, so it's nice that they have many skills covered. Cam
Gadodel 09-18-04, 04:45 PM	What is so good about them? Everyone raves about them. Why? Educate me, please. I just like them because they add a 'Superhero' element without necessarily being really high level.
Jaerom Darkwind 09-19-04, 02:04 AM	The 5-level classes can be found in the link in my sig. I'm quite proud of them. Among other things, they fix some problems I ran into when using them at 1st level.
cambric 09-19-04, 07:54 AM	Yours was one of the links I was referring to, but couldn't find it that day. I have begun to offer your levels to my group. We are meeting soon and they really liked what you've done with them. Cam
ninjarabbit 10-15-04, 04:00 PM	Basically they're PrCs with no requirements other than race.
Jaerom Darkwind 10-15-04, 06:16 PM	Basically they're PrCs with no requirements other than race.Not really a good analogy, since they can also be taken at 1st level, but PrCs can't.
Ricohard_Draconis 10-15-04, 06:35 PM	Not really a good analogy, since they can also be taken at 1st level, but PrCs can't. actually theres no rule ( i think) that says you couldn't take a PrC at first level, except that you don't comply with the requirements to enter that class. there for if the only requirement is race then you can enter the PrC at first level.
Nedlum 10-15-04, 11:34 PM	cambric: So, in your game the charecters start out Paragon, then multiclass into normal classes? I'm curious how you figure in the bonus spells-per-day, then. Do you give the gnome two levels of Bard, or does he gain them retrospectivly once he takes one level of it?
Jaerom Darkwind 10-16-04, 12:28 AM	cambric: So, in your game the charecters start out Paragon, then multiclass into normal classes? I'm curious how you figure in the bonus spells-per-day, then. Do you give the gnome two levels of Bard, or does he gain them retrospectivly once he takes one level of it?That's the only reasonable way to do it, IOM. (Logically, the classes are either balanced with the spellcasting or they aren't. If they're balanced with spellcasting, they're significantly underpowered without it, wheras if they're overpowered with spellcasting, we can't rely on anything in the book to be balanced or useful.)
cambric 10-16-04, 08:24 AM	Their first levels are Paragon and if a gnome goes bard, he gets the levels when he turns first level bard. Yeah, at 1st level bard, the gnome would be 3rd level casting abilitly. They are over-powering if I don't make the encounters tougher...which I do. :D For my campaigns, Paragon's are "flavor"...I really like what Jaerom Darkwind with Paragons and follow that a lot. As I stated in my earlier posts, I feel that successful adventurers are Paragon's...because they are better than the "normal" folk. Just as professional sport figures are "better" physically than the normal person...not that someone can't rise up and succeed, it's just become a "norm" for my campaigns. Cam
philopharynx 10-16-04, 01:16 PM	Though, I find that paragons are the most effective if you mix them with the race's favored class. Of course human levels help any class and half-elves are still gimped even as paragons.
trapspringer 10-16-04, 02:49 PM	It isn't even really a power thing. It is just a really good idea.
Uratoh 10-16-04, 06:05 PM	I'm going to make a Dwarf that is The. Ultimate. Dwarf. he's aiming for Fighter 7, Paragon 3, Dwarven Defender 10. he wields a dwarven waraxe and buckler axe for defense, and has a lucky mug he always carries with him.
El_Machinae 10-16-04, 11:44 PM	What does a dwarf paragon get over the three levels? I figure it's okay to post something like that due to the OGL.
Uratoh 10-17-04, 12:33 AM	what you'd expect...better darkvision, racial skills, con boost...like all of the paragon classes, it makes them more, well, dwarfy.
Jaerom Darkwind 10-17-04, 02:56 AM	The first 3 levels in all of my paragon classes were largely unchanged, with all changes listed in the intro, so you can look at those (the link is in my sig).
ninjarabbit 10-17-04, 09:06 AM	One thing I do like about paragons is that it makes half elves and half orcs worthwhile since they can take 2 different paragons.
Jaerom Darkwind 10-17-04, 01:19 PM	Wait, what's a Buckler Axe?
Uratoh 10-17-04, 02:54 PM	A Buckler Axe is a dwarven optional racial weapon (exotic normally). It's a buckler, that can be used as an emergency slashing weapon. You of course lose the shield bonus doing so.
HuskarlOdinson 10-18-04, 08:27 PM	Paragons are great on many levels. 1. As said above, the beef up low/mid-level characters and make the standard "I'm above the status quo, but I represent the best aspects of it". 2. NPCs: Great stuff for making townsfolk and the general folk come alive. 3. Split Classing: Pargons boost the natural direction of various races thus making later split classing more lucrative and Prestige Classes attainable. What a great concept. My hats off to the Unearthed Arcana design team on this one.