Post/Author/DateTime	Post
psionicbattousai 11-29-06, 07:28 PM	What do you think of this parry rule? When you are attacked in melee combat, and you have an appropriate melee weapon, you may attempt a parry. This uses up your attack of opportunity for the round. Make an opposed attack role. If you beat your attacker's role, you have successfully parried his/her attack. If you have the combat reflexes feat, you may use up any number of your AoO in this manner. I'm thinking of this as a normal thing you can do, but maybe as a feat if it's too overpowered. What does everyone think?
Witch 11-29-06, 07:31 PM	As a free action? It'll not come up much, since you only rarely get attacked during your turn.
psionicbattousai 11-29-06, 08:06 PM	As a free action? It'll not come up much, since you only rarely get attacked during your turn. erm...woops. Changed.
058 11-29-06, 09:44 PM	I think the Neverwinter Nights parry rule is rather good - Parry is a skill, and when you're attacked in mêlée, if you've declared beforehand that you're parrying, you roll. The DC is your enemy's attack roll, and if you beat it, you successfully deflect it. You can parry up to as many attacks in your turn as you can make, and if you beat an enemy's attack roll by 10 or more, you are allowed a counter-attack.
Witch 11-30-06, 04:12 AM	Sure. I buy an item of +30 Parry. Not expensive, and it effectively means that you're not hitting me, while I'm counter attacking you.
Witchblade 11-30-06, 05:57 AM	Makes combat reflexes ridiculously overpowered.
058 11-30-06, 07:43 AM	Sure. I buy an item of +30 Parry. Not expensive, and it effectively means that you're not hitting me, while I'm counter attacking you. By the time you can afford an item that gives you +30 on a skill, your enemy's already attacking you with more than that.
LycaonDarkmoon 11-30-06, 09:53 AM	The way I see it parry is already covered by things like Fighting Defensively, Total Defense and Combat Expertise. Oh yeah, and Class Defense Bonus if you use that rule.
psionicbattousai 11-30-06, 06:17 PM	The problem with NWN parry is that it means you have to be fighting defensivly and all that. Realistically, a warrior in combat can parry even while activly fighting. I still plan on using my version. I've altered the wording a bit, and came up with some feats. Looking for comments/suggestions as far as balance and stuff. Parry When you are attacked in melee combat, and you are wielding an appropriate melee weapon, you may attempt to parry your enemy's attack. This uses up your attack of opportunity for the round. You may not attempt a parry if you have already used your AoO. Make an opposed attack roll. If your attack roll beats your opponent's, you have succesfully parried his/her attack. Special: If you have the combat reflexes feat, you may give up as many attacks of opportunity as you have in this manner. Feats: Improved Parry [General, Fighter] You are skilled at parrying your enemies' blows, which sometimes enables you to return the attack. Prerequisite: Dex 15, Base Attack Bonus +5 Benefit: When parrying an attack, if you beat your opponent's roll by more then 10, you may immediatly make a counter attack. This is a normal melee attack, at your highest base attack bonus. Greater Counter-Attacking [General, Fighter] Your skill at parrying and counter attacking is amazing. Prerequisite: Dex 17, Base Attack Bonus +13, Cleave, Improved Parry Benefit: If you drop an opponent with a counter attack, you may use your cleave ability to make an additional attack against a nearby enemy. This works exactly as the feat (no 5-foot step, same weapon, same attack bonus, etc). You may not make multiple additional attacks, even if you posess the Great Cleave feat. Two-Weapon Parrying [General, Fighter] Your use of two weapons greatly aids you in counter-attacking. Prerequisite: Dex 19, Base Attack Bonus +15, Improved Parry, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Fighter or Ranger(two-weapon fighting style) Benefit: While wielding two appropriate melee weapons, if you parry an enemy's attack, you may then make a counter-attack with your off-hand weapon, no matter how much you beat his attck roll by. The off-hand attack is made at a -5 penalty. If your opposed roll beats your opponent's roll by more then 10, you make the attack with your main weapon, at your highest attack bonus, like normal. Special: You may choose to make the counter-attack with your off-hand weapon, at the -5 penalty, even if you beat your opponent's attack roll by more then 10. Perfect Parrying [Epic, Fighter] You have perfected the art of parrying and counter-attacking. Prerequisite: Dex 25, Improved Combat Reflexes, Greater Counter-Attacking, Two-Weapon Parrying, Base Attack Bonus +25, Great Cleave, Fighter level 11th or Ranger level 11th. Benefit: As long as you beat your opponent's attack roll, you may make a counter-attack, no matter how much you beat it by. Great Cleave works with this feat. Also, you can make an unlimited number of parries per round.
I'm not a fanatic 11-30-06, 08:00 PM	Okay, I have a problem with your house rule. (DISCLAIMER: If you group has fun playing like that, then go ahead, but I think it's a bad idea for the following reasons...) If you want to describe your melee character PC parrying his opponents attacks (when the enemy doesn't meet his touch AC, perhaps) then go ahead. It adds flavor and makes battle more interesting. What your feats do is add more rolls to gameplay and slows down combat. While the Player's handbook (or DMG, I forget which) says that "one attack doesn't necessarily represent one attack" especially with melee weapons, dodging out of the way could also mean a parry, and I would recommend you work attacks out that way.
Kursk 11-30-06, 08:17 PM	I thought DEX bonus to AC kinda covered this. That's the way I view it anyway.
058 11-30-06, 08:27 PM	So folk in full-platemail are pretty much incapable of deflecting blows with their weapons? That's actually one of my main problems with platemail - historically, fully armoured knights could run, jump, and swim with very little complication from their armour. Dodging and deflecting blows also was not a problem; the max dex bonus for plate is far too low for historical accuracy.
Kursk 11-30-06, 08:53 PM	So folk in full-platemail are pretty much incapable of deflecting blows with their weapons? That's actually one of my main problems with platemail - historically, fully armoured knights could run, jump, and swim with very little complication from their armour. Dodging and deflecting blows also was not a problem; the max dex bonus for plate is far too low for historical accuracy. that's why I greatly raised the max bonus in game...
LycaonDarkmoon 12-01-06, 05:00 PM	While I like your rule, especially the Feats, I think I have to agree with Fanatic: you're reinventing the wheel, so to speak. You're adding mechanics to do things that are already done by other mechanics. Dex bonus to AC, the Two Weapon Defense feat (which used to be called Off-hand parry IIRC), and the abilities I listed earlier are all functionally the same thing as parrying: you use skill and movement to avoid being hurt, or in game terms you increase your AC without beefing up the actual armor you wear. Why is this an issue? Because you're essentially giving characters with parry (who will most likely be built around evasive combat: dex based fighters, rogues, swashbucklers etc.) an extra layer of protection. They get their Class defense bonus (if you use it, and you should its a great rule that should have been in D&D from the start), dex bonus to AC, bonuses from Shield (which is certainly used to parry), Dodge, Combat Expertise, etc. and then on top of all this, if they still get hit they basicly get a "do over" to avoid it again. See the point? Letting players decide to "try again" after getting hit is never a good idea. To keep it more balanced I'd consider doing something like this: make players roll AC when attacked (see the rule in DMG and Unearthed Arcana). Allow the player to sacrifice an AoO to add their BAB to this roll, but they have to decide to do so when they're attacked, not after they know if they were hit or not. I wouldn't even make it a feat, just a normal ability (I do liek the feats for improvements and counters though, keep those) They still get their bonus, but without adding a second roll to the round. If you don't like the idea of rolled AC just let them add BAB to AC against 1 attack if they give up their AoO. Sounds a lot more balanced to me this way.
Retromancer 12-02-06, 01:16 AM	This could be much more easily represented simply by giving weapons bonuses to AC. the easier it was to parry with a weapon, the larger the bonus. Magic effects could be given to raise this bonus. much more elegant of a solution than adding unneccessary rolls to combat.
obsidianrose 12-02-06, 11:48 AM	In our campaign, we just declared the BAB is applied to your touch AC, representing a parry.
Retromancer 12-02-06, 02:51 PM	In our campaign, we just declared the BAB is applied to your touch AC, representing a parry. touch AC? how the hell would you parry a ray of frost?
obsidianrose 12-02-06, 03:36 PM	I meant that more along the lines of you lose it when you go flat footed. Hrm, maybe there's anotehr name for that.
Chimera245 12-02-06, 03:58 PM	I don't see why everyone thinks this is going to add more rolls to combat and slow it down. If this is something that's going to use up your AoO's, then AoO's are something you have to roll for anyway. This just changes the reason behind the roll. However, I never saw any definition for "Appropriate Melee weapon". What counts as an inappropriate melee weapon? I WOULD make this a feat a character has to take, however, Like you have to take a Divine feat to do something else with your Turn Attempts, you take the Track feat to gain another use of the Survival skill, and the way a Bard can take some feats to gain new uses of his bardic music. This feat gives you a new use for your AoO's.
psionicbattousai 12-02-06, 04:40 PM	While I like your rule, especially the Feats, I think I have to agree with Fanatic: you're reinventing the wheel, so to speak. You're adding mechanics to do things that are already done by other mechanics. Dex bonus to AC, the Two Weapon Defense feat (which used to be called Off-hand parry IIRC), and the abilities I listed earlier are all functionally the same thing as parrying: you use skill and movement to avoid being hurt, or in game terms you increase your AC without beefing up the actual armor you wear. Why is this an issue? Because you're essentially giving characters with parry (who will most likely be built around evasive combat: dex based fighters, rogues, swashbucklers etc.) an extra layer of protection. They get their Class defense bonus (if you use it, and you should its a great rule that should have been in D&D from the start), dex bonus to AC, bonuses from Shield (which is certainly used to parry), Dodge, Combat Expertise, etc. and then on top of all this, if they still get hit they basicly get a "do over" to avoid it again. See the point? Letting players decide to "try again" after getting hit is never a good idea. To keep it more balanced I'd consider doing something like this: make players roll AC when attacked (see the rule in DMG and Unearthed Arcana). Allow the player to sacrifice an AoO to add their BAB to this roll, but they have to decide to do so when they're attacked, not after they know if they were hit or not. I wouldn't even make it a feat, just a normal ability (I do liek the feats for improvements and counters though, keep those) They still get their bonus, but without adding a second roll to the round. If you don't like the idea of rolled AC just let them add BAB to AC against 1 attack if they give up their AoO. Sounds a lot more balanced to me this way. Actually, I did intend for them to give up their AoO and make the opposed roll before they actually know whether or not the enemy hit them. Thanks for pointing out to me that my wording was still kinda vague. Also, parry itself isn't a feat, just all of the things that build off of it are. Does this make it seem more balanced? As far as more rolls, like Chimera said, this is instead of an AoO, so its no more rolls then before. And for an 'appropriate' melee weapon, I left that vague because it's kind of a gray area that would be up to the DM, based on the situation. For instance, a dagger may be able to parry another dagger, or kukri, or maybe even a short sword, but definitly nothing bigger. But something like a longsword could probably parry just about anything. But then size categories come into play. It's basically a common sense case-by-case sort of thing.
Chimera245 12-02-06, 08:06 PM	You might be able to say, as a *general* rule that you can parry an attack with a weapon as big as or bigger than the weapon you are attacked with. Light weapons parry light weapons, One-handed weapons parry one-handed and light, Two handed parry two- or one-handed, or light weapons, etc. Adjusted, of course, by the size of the creatures involved.
058 12-02-06, 08:09 PM	It always seemed to me that dex-fighters got screwed. Not only are they forced to use weapons of inferior damage (though notably higher critical-ratings) in order to retain their dexterity advantage, but they deal significantly less damage. Yes, they get a few more points of armour-class as they progress - but what is that, next to your zweihänder-wielding, super-buff, platemail-clad warrior? Parry as an additional skill, I think, might go a ways toward balancing them out some. It could, perhaps, represent additional training in a certain aspect of combat. Perhaps the Parry skill could be similar to Tumble, in that for every ten ranks, you get an additional point of armour-class.
zavin 12-03-06, 10:23 PM	I use a rule sorta like this, except I allow them to make an amount of parries equal to their number of attacks, I.E. one attack allows one parry, two attacks allows two parries, etc.
Geoste 12-05-06, 09:38 PM	You might consider using the alternative rule of replacing the base 10 in AC value with a d20 roll? I know it's not Parry, but it does vary AC values from round to round, or even hit to hit if you are so inclined...
hiryuu 12-05-06, 11:14 PM	I always saw parry as being covered by the fighting defensively, total defense, and Combat Expertise rules, myself. After all, that's what they perfectly model: paying attention to your opponent's blows by sacrificing some of your attack advantage. In fact, if both combatants in a melee are fighting defensively, they have trouble hitting one another because they're too busy blocking each others' sword blows.
LycaonDarkmoon 12-06-06, 11:01 AM	Actually, I did intend for them to give up their AoO and make the opposed roll before they actually know whether or not the enemy hit them. Thanks for pointing out to me that my wording was still kinda vague. Also, parry itself isn't a feat, just all of the things that build off of it are. Does this make it seem more balanced? Actually yes, this makes it feel a little less out there. As I was trying to stress, I thought the unbalance came not so much from the mechanic but from the fact that you were offereing a 2nd try to fail being hit. If its an either or its much more balance...BUT you might want to take a look at some of the maneuvers in Tome of Battle, several allow you to use an attack or certain kind of check in place of your normal AC. As far as more rolls, like Chimera said, this is instead of an AoO, so its no more rolls then before. Its still more rolls. How often do your NPCs and monsters provoke AoOs? I'll venture its quite a bit less often than they take a swing at a PC. Something to keep in mind. And for an 'appropriate' melee weapon, I left that vague because it's kind of a gray area that would be up to the DM, based on the situation. For instance, a dagger may be able to parry another dagger, or kukri, or maybe even a short sword, but definitly nothing bigger. But something like a longsword could probably parry just about anything. But then size categories come into play. It's basically a common sense case-by-case sort of thing. I'd leave it more open than that. If you're shooting for realisim (which it seems you are) then a dagger CAN parry a longsword, or even a greatsword. Its just a lot harder. I'd just add a -2 penalty to the parry roll for ever size category smaller your parrying weapon is. So dagger vs. longsword would be -2. Dagger vs Greatsword would be -4, etc.
psionicbattousai 12-06-06, 03:02 PM	Actually yes, this makes it feel a little less out there. As I was trying to stress, I thought the unbalance came not so much from the mechanic but from the fact that you were offereing a 2nd try to fail being hit. If its an either or its much more balance...BUT you might want to take a look at some of the maneuvers in Tome of Battle, several allow you to use an attack or certain kind of check in place of your normal AC. Its still more rolls. How often do your NPCs and monsters provoke AoOs? I'll venture its quite a bit less often than they take a swing at a PC. Something to keep in mind. I'd leave it more open than that. If you're shooting for realisim (which it seems you are) then a dagger CAN parry a longsword, or even a greatsword. Its just a lot harder. I'd just add a -2 penalty to the parry roll for ever size category smaller your parrying weapon is. So dagger vs. longsword would be -2. Dagger vs Greatsword would be -4, etc. Thanks for all the replies. Im kinda surprised that a rule I came up with ended up not being totally unbalanced. Anyways, the rule seems to be working out fairly well so far. It doesn't seem to be too many more rolls, as there do tend to be a decent number of attacks of opportunity occuring in the game. I'll let everyone know how well this works out as the campaign progresses.