Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Candar 05-15-05, 02:58 PM	In my group we are currently debating whether to use the rules on paying of LA from UA. The problem is that our DM think that it is unbalanced compared to the character playing races with an ECL +0, because while you will be behind for some time you will catch up, due to your lower ECL - once you start paying it of.
StevenO 05-15-05, 07:08 PM	First, I admit to not actually knowing how the book says it works. I think it is generally a fair idea. The true reason for LA is to make sure that those races don't overpower others at lower levels. As the characters level up the early benefits of LA are diminished compared to the class benefits gained. A +2 Str at 1st level offers a 100% improvement to a +1 BAB; that same Str bonus only offer a 10% improvement when compared to a +10 BAB. Short version; LA is needed at low level to keep powerful races in check but at higher levels isn't as big a factor.
Dunelord 05-15-05, 07:21 PM	I think it is fair, but you should have to always keep at least a +1 LA since you are still more powerful then a standard. To me this better represents the difference between +2 at ECL 4 and ECL 14.
Elgonn 05-15-05, 07:47 PM	There are two things you need to think about before you can determine it. What kind of alternate races are you thinking about using? Do they have static/minor abilities that got them the LA or do they have scalar abilities? It is entirely fair to pay of the LA of a Genasi. They suck. They weren't worth the LA in the first place. Also their abilities don't scale in any fashion whatsoever. It might be fair to pay of the LA of a Drow. The issue for them is simply their spell resistence. Their minor other abilities don't deserve a long term penalty. But this is really just a question for the DM and the Players. Do they care that one person has a 'free' scaling magical item? But you could probably drop the LA from 2 to 1 by paying it off even if you don't think it is fair to pay it all the way off. Just like a Svirfneblin certainly doesn't warrant +3 LA into epic play (haha). [Same goes other scalar LA like Feral, etc....] No matter what you decide you might want to see how your players will react because honestly your always better off paying off some LA than say starting as a half-orc.
DM Zoc 05-15-05, 08:06 PM	It is entirely fair to pay of the LA of a Genasi. They suck. They weren't worth the LA in the first place. Also their abilities don't scale in any fashion whatsoever. Genasi get mental stat bonuses. An Air Duke spellcaster (sorcerer, I think) will always be better than a spellcaster of a core class, significantly far down the line. If you want to justify it, though, consider it to be just like magical item creation. Wizards pay experience to create magical items, and are lower level for a while before eventually evening out again. In the end, though, they have the same exp total as the party and they have the magical item to show for it.] The penalty for playing an LA+1 race is that you're one level behind the rest of the party until you all reach level 10 or so, at which point you've paid your debt to society. Afterwards, you are strictly more powerful than an equivalent LA+0 race, just as the item-creator wizard is strictly more powerful than the non-version after the former has caught up experience-wise. In some ways, LA-buyoff is just a way for non-item creators (such as fighters) to cash in on the EXP gravy train in 3.5. Of course, LA-buyoff doesn't actually work if you start the campaign at high level. If characters start with 100K experience, for example, a drow will have paid 15K of that to remove LA and will not have experienced the subsequent catching-up period because there's no way to calculated how much more experience it would have gotten for being low level.
Aurotuli 05-15-05, 08:14 PM	Is a Drow Ftr 18 absolutely equal to a Human Ftr 20? No, of course not. The benefits of dark vision, some minor spell like abilities, some ability adjustments, etc are of little worth at 20th level. A couple of magic items well within the price range of the 20th level character will easily offset those. Even without those the 20th level human fighter is still likely to defeat the 18th level drow fighter nine times out of ten. Character wealth and magic items alone will give him an advantage - not including class specials (more notable for other classes, I admit), increased BAB, saves, skills, etc. One might argue, from that perspective, that the LA buyoff should be automatic without xp penalty. However, at lower levels the ability adjustments, minor spell like abilities, etc are much more valuable. A Drow Ftr 2, compared with a Human Ftr 4, is possibly an equal. Comparing a Drow Ftr 2 to a human Ftr 3, and I would not be surprised if the drow won - such is the power of his racial traits at lower levels. Thus an xp penalty of some sort is needed. I would, however, consider [but not necessarily would] placing all lost xp (due to LA) towards the LA payoff. LA buyoff is not only fair, its necessary for higher level games. Otherwise all characters with LA will hold the party back due to their inability to survive supposedly level equivalent challenges / CRs. I very seriously doubt a party of four higher level characters - where three have LA of +1 or +2 - is equal to the challenge of their level. A party of three 18th level characters and one 16th level character with LA +2, for instance, will be held back by the lower abilities of their 16th level companion. His abilities - potent and worthy of LA +2 at lower levels - are no longer sufficient to allow him to adequetly survive challenges his level is supposed to be capable of dealing with. Consider such a party with a 16th level wizard. That's an entire level of spells difference, and the minor spelllike abilities and ability adjustments simply do not make up for it. Consider such a party with a 16th level rogue. That's a difference of skill points, trap proficiency, and sneak attack two levels less than normal. At lower levels the bonuses gained from a few spell like abilities (darkness, for the drow, comes to mind) combined with the ability adjustments, etc make up for this quite readily. At higher levels the same does not hold true. He simply cannot keep up with his team. So my view is that LA buyoff is essential if the campaign will ever run into mid or higher levels. Recall that a Drow must pay 5,000 XP + 8,000 XP (if I recall correctly) to buy off his level adjustment. Furthermore, he cannot do so until level 6 (for reduction to LA +1) and level 9 (for reduction to LA +0). At levels higher than about 15 this won't even set him back a level from the rest of the party - showing that at higher levels his bonii from racial traits is no longer worth a level adjustment. For +1 races the buyoff can occur as soon as level 3, while for +3 races the buyoff occurs at levels 9, 15, 18. As far as I can tell, these are just arbitrary levels, perhaps chosen with a dart board. I would suggest using the bloodlines as a means of determining buyoff levels, since they simulate LA through slow aquisition of features, with a buyoff at levels 3, 6, and 12 - perhaps with another level of buyoff every six levels thereafter (18, 24, 30, etc). A little faster than the normal buyoff, certainly, but at least there is a rhyme and reason to the choice. However, with LAs lower than +3 I don't think it matters much which system you use.
Edymnion 05-15-05, 08:55 PM	No, I don't think so. With the XP catchup rules, it effectively means you pay off some xp, which you will gain back until you are again even with everyone else. So the munchkins get both their super powers from race AND 9th level spells, and effectively pay nothing for it in the long run.
Loren Pechtel 05-15-05, 11:46 PM	Playing an ECL race is effectively multi-classing. Multi-class characters are generally weaker than single-class characters. Thus LA buyoff makes good sense. If anything my inclination is that it goes too slowly.
Candar 05-16-05, 06:02 AM	My sense is that the system is fair, but I have absolutely no proof. We have also discussed that you should be able to buy off your LA so it is similar to your CR increase, so a half-dragon could buy off one LA, from +3 to +2, which is similar to the CR increase +2. While this is an option, I would agree that at higher levels the extra power you have from your race, except from certain powers such as Drow spellresistance, becomes less important and a few well chosen magical items could replicate the effects. I think that this is supported by the fact that if you chose a very powerful template, like half-celestial or half-fiend it is not possible to buy off all of the LA until you reach epic level. What I think that I will suggest to my group is to use the system as is in our current campaign and get some first hand experience, and then if it is necessary we will make our own houserule. Thanks for all the comments.
Dartanel 05-16-05, 10:18 AM	Try this: Would the XP they're paying be enough to make a magic item which contained the abilities they're paying for? Say, would the couple hundred XP a drow is paying to buy off is first +1 Ecl be enough to pay for the creation of a slotless item of use activated 1/day spells on his list and a slotless + his stats? Then is the next several hundred enough for the creation cost of a slotless item of SR? If it is, it's fair enough. If not, then it isn't.
Elgonn 05-16-05, 10:56 AM	If it is, it's fair enough. If not, then it isn't. XP to buy it off is much more than the amount needed to make phantom items. But not XP & Gold value.
Elgonn 05-16-05, 10:58 AM	No, I don't think so. With the XP catchup rules, it effectively means you pay off some xp, which you will gain back until you are again even with everyone else. Edymnion. How about this. Which is more fair? Not using 3.5 XP figures and giving people who are behind a scalar figure that doesn't automatically catch up OR essentially making any LA race/template worthless in the grand scheme?
Aurotuli 05-16-05, 07:18 PM	How much would it cost to create a magic item for each affect granted by the drow racial traits? Using the SRD, that results in: Item: +2 Int Item: +2 Cha Item: SR 11 + character level (+9 at the time of final payoff) Item: once per day, each: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire Item: Dark Vision 120 ft Item: [curst] Light Blindness LA Payoff would charge about 15k xp for these abilities, if I recall correctly. Is this even close to the cost? Highly doubtful. If the cost of the sixth [curst] item is applied as a negative against the cost of the other four items, what would be the total price for these traits? (Recall the variant rule allowing 5 GP to be paid with 1 XP when determining cost. It is the only way this method can be used to compare the two views.)
DM Zoc 05-16-05, 10:51 PM	+2 Int = 4000 x 2 (slotless) = 8000 x 1.5 (not enhancement bonus -- it stacks -- arbitrary) = 10000 +2 Cha = 10000 Darkvision and light blindness balance each other out, and are found on some common +0 LA races. SR 21 = 90000 x2 (slotless) = 135000 Spell-like abilities: about 900*1.5*3 = 4050 Total = 159050 GP = 31810 EXP
Aurotuli 05-17-05, 07:24 PM	Interesting. Has anyone else noticed that the xp pay off is equal to having the abilities as items (non-slotless)? About 15k xp to pay off LA +2, vs 15,905 xp (if normal [not slotless] items are used). I wonder if the other LA payoffs work out the same way? LA +1 is 3k xp (6k if slotless, assuming items replace race). LA +3 is about 40k xp (80k xp if slotless). This suggests that the creator(s) of LA buyoff perhaps took one or two races of the noted LA, determined their abilities as if separate magic items (and not taking into account the slotless quality) and then determined the levels for payoff based on the total xp needed to 'buy' those traits. An odd idea, but I suppose it works. As already mentioned, they forgot the slotless trait when determing values, so the xp penalties should perhaps be doubled. Or perhaps they remembered it, but upon seeing how long it would take to buy off decided the penalty lasted overlong considering the lack of benefit gained at higher levels - and so removed the slotless cost on purpose. I don't suppose we'll ever know the exact truth as to how they determined the system, but this does seem to be a valid pattern, and it could allow us to better determine the xp penalty for using a certain race. Hmm, on second thought I see a hole or two in this. Most +1 races have traits whose cost (as items) would be well in excess of 3k (or 6k, if slotless). Of course, there should be perhaps be some type of deductable from the final cost based on what can be had while still remaining a +0 race, but I have no idea how to figure that out. Perhaps just round down to the nearest thousand? I don't know. What about LA +3 races? Are their traits worth 40k xp or significantly more (or less)?
P33KAJ3W 05-17-05, 08:08 PM	DO NOT DO IT - I DID IT AND IT BROKE MY CAMPAIGN :weep:
Enslaved DM 05-17-05, 10:52 PM	DO NOT DO IT - I DID IT AND IT BROKE MY CAMPAIGN :weep: Details please.
Dunelord 05-18-05, 04:25 AM	Is a Drow Ftr 18 absolutely equal to a Human Ftr 20? No, of course not. The benefits of dark vision, some minor spell like abilities, some ability adjustments, etc are of little worth at 20th level. A couple of magic items well within the price range of the 20th level character will easily offset those. Even without those the 20th level human fighter is still likely to defeat the 18th level drow fighter nine times out of ten. Character wealth and magic items alone will give him an advantage - not including class specials (more notable for other classes, I admit), increased BAB, saves, skills, etc. PC with use there ECL so the two characters in question would (in theory) have the same value of gear. "...use ECL with Table 5-1: Character Wealth by Level to determine starting wealth..." 3.5 DMG page 172