Penalty for PC Deaths [Archive] - Wizards Community

Penalty for PC Deaths [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aendvari
08-22-07, 02:27 AM After a few weeks running my first campaign I realized that the standard "loose a level at death" rule did not go over well with my players. We worked with it for a while, but they became more and more annoyed with the EXP loss.

So, we came up with a new house-rule: "death negative levels". When a PC dies, he gains a negative level (as per standard rules). This negative level can not be restored using any magical means. However, when the PC gains a new class level they may restore as many "death levels" as they have in Constitution bonus (e.g. they can restore 2 death levels if they have a CON bonus of +2).

I'm not sure how well this balances overall, but for our game it seems to have worked out well. The fighter types (often big CON's) die often, but restore big; while spell caster types (low CON's) often hide in the back (and don't die as often).
claypigeons
08-22-07, 04:04 AM After a few weeks running my first campaign I realized that the standard "loose a level at death" rule did not go over well with my players. We worked with it for a while, but they became more and more annoyed with the EXP loss.

So, we came up with a new house-rule: "death negative levels". When a PC dies, he gains a negative level (as per standard rules). This negative level can not be restored using any magical means. However, when the PC gains a new class level they may restore as many "death levels" as they have in Constitution bonus (e.g. they can restore 2 death levels if they have a CON bonus of +2).

I'm not sure how well this balances overall, but for our game it seems to have worked out well. The fighter types (often big CON's) die often, but restore big; while spell caster types (low CON's) often hide in the back (and don't die as often).

So what happens when you have 10 or less con? You're screwed forever?

Granted, losing a level due to death isn't really that much of a penalty... But never being able to recover would seriously hinder enjoyment. It's not really fun to have death be so ... permanent... in a fantasy world where dragons exist, and you can talk to gods.
Aendvari
08-22-07, 08:32 AM So what happens when you have 10 or less con? You're screwed forever?

Granted, losing a level due to death isn't really that much of a penalty... But never being able to recover would seriously hinder enjoyment. It's not really fun to have death be so ... permanent... in a fantasy world where dragons exist, and you can talk to gods.

Actually that has never happened :) Good point though, maybe something like converting some of the death levels to actual EXP loss?
Rustmonster
08-22-07, 01:02 PM Actually that has never happened :) Good point though, maybe something like converting some of the death levels to actual EXP loss?

How bout they just heal one at level up?
Aendvari
08-22-07, 02:27 PM How bout they just heal one at level up?

My mistake, I misunderstood the 10 CON question :) Yes, although it hasn't happened, we decided that at least one level would be restored regardless of their CON.
Aendvari
08-22-07, 02:28 PM DUP
Aendvari
08-22-07, 02:31 PM DUP
Aendvari
08-22-07, 02:44 PM DUP
Sphyre
08-22-07, 08:24 PM I actually have a very similar rule that I use.

Whenever a player would be lose a level (be it having died or level drained) they instead gain a permanent negative level that can't be removed by any means. Each time they level, they lose all permanent negative levels gained in this way.

You might want to consider that other than your con mod back each level. Unless dying is a huge occurrence in your game and you want to make sure they don't just walk forward knowing they'll be back to normal in no time.

Even if you keep your con rule, just revise it so that it's each time you gain a level you gain back your con mod in permanent levels, minimum one each level, and that covers cons of 11 or lower. Also, you might want to make the rule, that magic items or spells, con damage and the such doesn't apply unless it was in effect for the majority of your level. Otherwise at level up, they can just do the 3.0 headband of int trick, borrow the wizard's headband to temporarily increase your skill point gain when level up, and instead borrow the fighter's belt of constitution so you get more levels back.
Rustmonster
08-22-07, 08:35 PM My mistake, I misunderstood the 10 CON question :) Yes, although it hasn't happened, we decided that at least one level would be restored regardless of their CON.

No, I meant that you gain one regardless of CON. That part doesn't make sense.
Aendvari
08-23-07, 12:18 AM No, I meant that you gain one regardless of CON. That part doesn't make sense.

I agree, I had originally suggested one gained back. In the end we compromised on using the CON stat; not the best solution, but it seems to work okay.
koiulpoi
08-23-07, 12:58 PM Do they know that when they're a lower level than the rest of the party, they gain more XP?

Death needs to come with some consequence. Perhaps you could roll on a percentile table and, if "complications" arise, you lose a point from a physical stat. Of course, I bet your players would whine just as much about that one, if not more.
Rustmonster
08-23-07, 06:19 PM Do they know that when they're a lower level than the rest of the party, they gain more XP?

Do you know that since you lose XP from the level loss, you still end up being behind?
koiulpoi
08-23-07, 07:00 PM Do you know that since you lose XP from the level loss, you still end up being behind?

Yes, I do, Mr. Snark. Dying sucks. Your players should have a fear of it. Losing a level is a plenty good penalty. It's a lot less harsh than being handed a blank character sheet and 4d6.

Also, see this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=695040) from the CO boards.
lint trap
08-23-07, 08:28 PM I think, if you players are becoming annoyed, there's really one thing they should focus on: not dying so much. They need to become better at adventuring, something they supposedly do, because a character death every other level indicates either a killer DM or an incompetent party.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but I've never taken death that lightly in my games. Between negative hitpoints, instant healing, and the many creative ways that a party has to pull a "retrograde advance," death should be a pretty uncommon occurrence for a well-prepared party.

Anyway, if you're looking for some softer penalties, there's a table in Heroes of Horror for giving characters quirks once they've come back from the dead. Give them the option of rolling on this table instead of losing a level, and they might have less to whine about. Just make sure they stick to those character traits.
Rustmonster
08-24-07, 12:33 PM Yes, I do, Mr. Snark. Dying sucks. Your players should have a fear of it. Losing a level is a plenty good penalty. It's a lot less harsh than being handed a blank character sheet and 4d6.

Also, see this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=695040) from the CO boards.

Well, the way it is now, players fear it. It wastes time, money, and other resources that might have come to better use. Plus, if you get totally blown away, sometimes you can't be resed, or in lower levels, if the body is destroyed or lost, you're pretty screwed. There is lots to be scared of.

And, no. I will not read a huge page of jargen and numbers from the same people who gave me a character that threatens every space in existance and has infinite stats. Not everyone feels the need to break the game every chance they get to "win" D&D.
koiulpoi
08-24-07, 01:13 PM Phew, you got even snarkier in your last post there, Rustmonster.

Levels 1-8: Can't raise dead at all. Roll up a new character.
Levels 9-12: Can raise dead, lose a level.
Levels 13-16: Can raise dead, lose a level, don't need most of the body.
Levels 17+: Can raise dead, don't lose a level, don't need the body.

Funny how it's easier to do as you level up. If your players whine, tell them to level up a little.

So, something that you can't do for a little less than half the game shouldn't be an ordeal, huh? Getting your soul wrenched back from whatever plane it went to is just a day in the life, huh? Or, as it says in the description of Raise Dead, "Coming back from the dead is an ordeal." Yeah, it wastes time, money, and resources. You're also bringing back the dead, something that requires a Miracle from the Gods in most mythologies. But, if you wanna houserule it otherwise, feel free. My players don't need to be cut some slack when it comes to death. Maybe yours do because they die all the time. Part of the job of DMing is level-appropriate encounters. If they still die (because you've got that 5% (or whatever) of encounters you're supposed to run from), then talk to them and explain why.

Since you simply can't be bothered to read the link I sent you, I'll summarize for you. "A character who is consistently one level below the rest of the party gains around 75,000 more experience than the rest." It was to show "being a lower level isn't that big of a burden, and is sometimes a boon." But, since the CO boards gave us Pun-Pun, all their material must be about game-breaking and not having fun, so let's ignore that fact.
Rustmonster
08-24-07, 08:18 PM Phew, you got even snarkier in your last post there, Rustmonster.

Levels 1-8: Can't raise dead at all. Roll up a new character.
Levels 9-12: Can raise dead, lose a level.
Levels 13-16: Can raise dead, lose a level, don't need most of the body.
Levels 17+: Can raise dead, don't lose a level, don't need the body.

Funny how it's easier to do as you level up. If your players whine, tell them to level up a little.

So, something that you can't do for a little less than half the game shouldn't be an ordeal, huh? Getting your soul wrenched back from whatever plane it went to is just a day in the life, huh? Or, as it says in the description of Raise Dead, "Coming back from the dead is an ordeal." Yeah, it wastes time, money, and resources. You're also bringing back the dead, something that requires a Miracle from the Gods in most mythologies. But, if you wanna houserule it otherwise, feel free. My players don't need to be cut some slack when it comes to death. Maybe yours do because they die all the time. Part of the job of DMing is level-appropriate encounters. If they still die (because you've got that 5% (or whatever) of encounters you're supposed to run from), then talk to them and explain why.

Since you simply can't be bothered to read the link I sent you, I'll summarize for you. "A character who is consistently one level below the rest of the party gains around 75,000 more experience than the rest." It was to show "being a lower level isn't that big of a burden, and is sometimes a boon." But, since the CO boards gave us Pun-Pun, all their material must be about game-breaking and not having fun, so let's ignore that fact.

Wow, I'M being snarky. I never noticed.

On a not hating you note, why are you seeming to assume that I don't think it should be a bad thing to die? I was just tryign to help the man/woman with their houserule. The CON thing was silly, so I was just suggesting that he/she simplify it.

And yet again, It doesn't matter you get more "on average", because no matter how long you gain exp "faster", you will ALWAYS be behind.
DMs_Favourite
08-24-07, 08:50 PM Only levels 1-6 you can't be brought from the grave...

Granted you won't be in your body when you return.
koiulpoi
08-24-07, 11:07 PM Only levels 1-6 you can't be brought from the grave...

Granted you won't be in your body when you return.

I'm a fan of 3.0 Reincarnate. The list was so much more fun. You can tell someone "Yeah, now you're a badger. Deal with it." It also had problems for things like "becoming a Dryad".
eamon
08-25-07, 04:56 AM Given the way XP loss works, you can actually come out ahead if you start out behind. Put simply if you're only a little bit behind, but that little bit puts you a level lower than the rest of the party, and you defeat a "large" challenge, then the difference in XP gain can well exceed the difference between party members.

Granted, it's a corner case, and I've never seen it happen, but it's possible ;-).

What I do is simply accelerate XP gain for those characters that are a level behind. I let all characters that are a level behind gain 50% more XP than their compatriots (which is roughty twice the gain they normally get) It also makes XP calculations easier because you don't need to do two lookups.

Once I explained to my players that I wanted them to grow into their characters and than starting off weaker and then "coming into your own" was part of that, they acceeded. Another nice benefit of accelerated XP gain for stragglers is that magic item creation is less of a hassle (since the XP-component is less annoying).
Rustmonster
08-25-07, 11:20 AM Given the way XP loss works, you can actually come out ahead if you start out behind. Put simply if you're only a little bit behind, but that little bit puts you a level lower than the rest of the party, and you defeat a "large" challenge, then the difference in XP gain can well exceed the difference between party members.

Granted, it's a corner case, and I've never seen it happen, but it's possible ;-).

What I do is simply accelerate XP gain for those characters that are a level behind. I let all characters that are a level behind gain 50% more XP than their compatriots (which is roughty twice the gain they normally get) It also makes XP calculations easier because you don't need to do two lookups.

Once I explained to my players that I wanted them to grow into their characters and than starting off weaker and then "coming into your own" was part of that, they acceeded. Another nice benefit of accelerated XP gain for stragglers is that magic item creation is less of a hassle (since the XP-component is less annoying).

I personally use a different xp chart then the one in the DMG. I've always found it too complicated. The one I use gives static xp for the challange.

Example: A CR 1 monster ALWAYS gives 300 xp, divided amongst the party. Three of them would therefore give 900, divided amongst the party, no matter what level anyone is.

It works out really well, as you don't have to do any real math.
Dux_is_me
08-26-07, 12:12 AM Unfortunately, it also means lots of small monsters make you level up faster than a single large one with the same encounter level.
Rustmonster
08-26-07, 01:52 PM Unfortunately, it also means lots of small monsters make you level up faster than a single large one with the same encounter level.

No, not really. The amount enemies give scales very nicely, so it's better to fight big guys then little ones. I could post the chart, if you'd like.
Seldriss
08-26-07, 09:26 PM I know in advance I am not going to be popular by posting this, but I am already used to that with many of my house rules :rolleyes:

So here are my penalties (in my campaign world) for being brought back to life :

The subject loses one level, which cannot be restored.
And one point of Constitution, which cannot be restored either.
Furthermore, the subject is automatically converted to the deity of the "raiser" (cleric or any other spiritualist). Sometimes, this conversion has an effect on the alignment.

What if he was raised from the dead from another kind of caster (like a mage) or a magic item ?
Well, he cannot really, some magic can only be divine, or if it happens in some rare exceptions, the character is still converted to whatever deity allows this miracle, whether it is a god of magic or a god of death.

This means that sometimes a character is not the same when he is brought back to life, as his point of view or alignment might change with his conversion.
It is of course better for a character to be raised by a cleric of the same god than his.
Which means also it is better to have a patron deity, whatever the class.
If not, death might indeed be the door to a new life...

If the character doesn't want to be brought back to life by a certain cleric (or for whatever reason), he has a saving throw.
And if he was a pious devot of a religion, he can even try to call on his god's intervention to prevent this (little chance, but better than nothing).
Of course, this works on NPCs too, which is actually sometimes a good way to turn them on your side after killing them. With some cautious diplomacy of course.
And I should add that this conversion gives some XP to the cleric.

I know, that's tough.
I insist on the fact that these are rules for my own campaign world. If I DM on Forgotten realms, I don't use them.

(go ahead, flame :D )
Dux_is_me
08-26-07, 10:21 PM Post 'em, then.
Neutronium_Dragon
08-26-07, 11:22 PM > Well, the way it is now, players fear it.

They don't fear it. They're annoyed/frustrated by it. They're not the same thing, and the latter isn't good.

As far as the "permanent negative level" approach - that was actually introduced to the gaming community by one of the 3E developers, who used it in his home campaign. Generally all of the negative levels are simply removed when the character levels up rather than basing it on Con.
Fsi-Dib
08-27-07, 03:05 AM I've always had the normal procedure of "The character dies, it's not likely it's coming back" (partially because I dislike the ability to raise dead just about anyone) which leads to the player creating a new character at the same xp it left. It's nicer for the players, at least. I don't really like to set them back.
White_Whale
08-27-07, 03:59 AM After a few weeks running my first campaign I realized that the standard "loose a level at death" rule did not go over well with my players. We worked with it for a while, but they became more and more annoyed with the EXP loss.

So, we came up with a new house-rule: "death negative levels". When a PC dies, he gains a negative level (as per standard rules). This negative level can not be restored using any magical means. However, when the PC gains a new class level they may restore as many "death levels" as they have in Constitution bonus (e.g. they can restore 2 death levels if they have a CON bonus of +2).

I'm not sure how well this balances overall, but for our game it seems to have worked out well. The fighter types (often big CON's) die often, but restore big; while spell caster types (low CON's) often hide in the back (and don't die as often).
I know I would despise playing with a rule like this, as it would remove any chance of permanently dying. And that leads to people playing in stupid, heedless ways, IMO.
BobbyMac
08-27-07, 04:25 PM http://www.hambo.com/rpg/rules/death.html
Seldriss
08-27-07, 05:31 PM Post 'em, then.
Huh, I did.
And edited my post to put the points in bold.
Dux_is_me
08-27-07, 10:48 PM I meant the variant experience chart Rustmonster uses;
Rustmonster
08-28-07, 11:40 AM I meant the variant experience chart Rustmonster uses;

Oh, I'll get around to that. Have to find it. And I'm in a bad mood, so it might have too many rants if I posted it now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aendvari 08-22-07, 02:27 AM	After a few weeks running my first campaign I realized that the standard "loose a level at death" rule did not go over well with my players. We worked with it for a while, but they became more and more annoyed with the EXP loss. So, we came up with a new house-rule: "death negative levels". When a PC dies, he gains a negative level (as per standard rules). This negative level can not be restored using any magical means. However, when the PC gains a new class level they may restore as many "death levels" as they have in Constitution bonus (e.g. they can restore 2 death levels if they have a CON bonus of +2). I'm not sure how well this balances overall, but for our game it seems to have worked out well. The fighter types (often big CON's) die often, but restore big; while spell caster types (low CON's) often hide in the back (and don't die as often).
claypigeons 08-22-07, 04:04 AM	After a few weeks running my first campaign I realized that the standard "loose a level at death" rule did not go over well with my players. We worked with it for a while, but they became more and more annoyed with the EXP loss. So, we came up with a new house-rule: "death negative levels". When a PC dies, he gains a negative level (as per standard rules). This negative level can not be restored using any magical means. However, when the PC gains a new class level they may restore as many "death levels" as they have in Constitution bonus (e.g. they can restore 2 death levels if they have a CON bonus of +2). I'm not sure how well this balances overall, but for our game it seems to have worked out well. The fighter types (often big CON's) die often, but restore big; while spell caster types (low CON's) often hide in the back (and don't die as often). So what happens when you have 10 or less con? You're screwed forever? Granted, losing a level due to death isn't really that much of a penalty... But never being able to recover would seriously hinder enjoyment. It's not really fun to have death be so ... permanent... in a fantasy world where dragons exist, and you can talk to gods.
Aendvari 08-22-07, 08:32 AM	So what happens when you have 10 or less con? You're screwed forever? Granted, losing a level due to death isn't really that much of a penalty... But never being able to recover would seriously hinder enjoyment. It's not really fun to have death be so ... permanent... in a fantasy world where dragons exist, and you can talk to gods. Actually that has never happened :) Good point though, maybe something like converting some of the death levels to actual EXP loss?
Rustmonster 08-22-07, 01:02 PM	Actually that has never happened :) Good point though, maybe something like converting some of the death levels to actual EXP loss? How bout they just heal one at level up?
Aendvari 08-22-07, 02:27 PM	How bout they just heal one at level up? My mistake, I misunderstood the 10 CON question :) Yes, although it hasn't happened, we decided that at least one level would be restored regardless of their CON.
Aendvari 08-22-07, 02:28 PM	DUP
Aendvari 08-22-07, 02:31 PM	DUP
Aendvari 08-22-07, 02:44 PM	DUP
Sphyre 08-22-07, 08:24 PM	I actually have a very similar rule that I use. Whenever a player would be lose a level (be it having died or level drained) they instead gain a permanent negative level that can't be removed by any means. Each time they level, they lose all permanent negative levels gained in this way. You might want to consider that other than your con mod back each level. Unless dying is a huge occurrence in your game and you want to make sure they don't just walk forward knowing they'll be back to normal in no time. Even if you keep your con rule, just revise it so that it's each time you gain a level you gain back your con mod in permanent levels, minimum one each level, and that covers cons of 11 or lower. Also, you might want to make the rule, that magic items or spells, con damage and the such doesn't apply unless it was in effect for the majority of your level. Otherwise at level up, they can just do the 3.0 headband of int trick, borrow the wizard's headband to temporarily increase your skill point gain when level up, and instead borrow the fighter's belt of constitution so you get more levels back.
Rustmonster 08-22-07, 08:35 PM	My mistake, I misunderstood the 10 CON question :) Yes, although it hasn't happened, we decided that at least one level would be restored regardless of their CON. No, I meant that you gain one regardless of CON. That part doesn't make sense.
Aendvari 08-23-07, 12:18 AM	No, I meant that you gain one regardless of CON. That part doesn't make sense. I agree, I had originally suggested one gained back. In the end we compromised on using the CON stat; not the best solution, but it seems to work okay.
koiulpoi 08-23-07, 12:58 PM	Do they know that when they're a lower level than the rest of the party, they gain more XP? Death needs to come with some consequence. Perhaps you could roll on a percentile table and, if "complications" arise, you lose a point from a physical stat. Of course, I bet your players would whine just as much about that one, if not more.
Rustmonster 08-23-07, 06:19 PM	Do they know that when they're a lower level than the rest of the party, they gain more XP? Do you know that since you lose XP from the level loss, you still end up being behind?
koiulpoi 08-23-07, 07:00 PM	Do you know that since you lose XP from the level loss, you still end up being behind? Yes, I do, Mr. Snark. Dying sucks. Your players should have a fear of it. Losing a level is a plenty good penalty. It's a lot less harsh than being handed a blank character sheet and 4d6. Also, see this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=695040) from the CO boards.
lint trap 08-23-07, 08:28 PM	I think, if you players are becoming annoyed, there's really one thing they should focus on: not dying so much. They need to become better at adventuring, something they supposedly do, because a character death every other level indicates either a killer DM or an incompetent party. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but I've never taken death that lightly in my games. Between negative hitpoints, instant healing, and the many creative ways that a party has to pull a "retrograde advance," death should be a pretty uncommon occurrence for a well-prepared party. Anyway, if you're looking for some softer penalties, there's a table in Heroes of Horror for giving characters quirks once they've come back from the dead. Give them the option of rolling on this table instead of losing a level, and they might have less to whine about. Just make sure they stick to those character traits.
Rustmonster 08-24-07, 12:33 PM	Yes, I do, Mr. Snark. Dying sucks. Your players should have a fear of it. Losing a level is a plenty good penalty. It's a lot less harsh than being handed a blank character sheet and 4d6. Also, see this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=695040) from the CO boards. Well, the way it is now, players fear it. It wastes time, money, and other resources that might have come to better use. Plus, if you get totally blown away, sometimes you can't be resed, or in lower levels, if the body is destroyed or lost, you're pretty screwed. There is lots to be scared of. And, no. I will not read a huge page of jargen and numbers from the same people who gave me a character that threatens every space in existance and has infinite stats. Not everyone feels the need to break the game every chance they get to "win" D&D.
koiulpoi 08-24-07, 01:13 PM	Phew, you got even snarkier in your last post there, Rustmonster. Levels 1-8: Can't raise dead at all. Roll up a new character. Levels 9-12: Can raise dead, lose a level. Levels 13-16: Can raise dead, lose a level, don't need most of the body. Levels 17+: Can raise dead, don't lose a level, don't need the body. Funny how it's easier to do as you level up. If your players whine, tell them to level up a little. So, something that you can't do for a little less than half the game shouldn't be an ordeal, huh? Getting your soul wrenched back from whatever plane it went to is just a day in the life, huh? Or, as it says in the description of Raise Dead, "Coming back from the dead is an ordeal." Yeah, it wastes time, money, and resources. You're also bringing back the dead, something that requires a Miracle from the Gods in most mythologies. But, if you wanna houserule it otherwise, feel free. My players don't need to be cut some slack when it comes to death. Maybe yours do because they die all the time. Part of the job of DMing is level-appropriate encounters. If they still die (because you've got that 5% (or whatever) of encounters you're supposed to run from), then talk to them and explain why. Since you simply can't be bothered to read the link I sent you, I'll summarize for you. "A character who is consistently one level below the rest of the party gains around 75,000 more experience than the rest." It was to show "being a lower level isn't that big of a burden, and is sometimes a boon." But, since the CO boards gave us Pun-Pun, all their material must be about game-breaking and not having fun, so let's ignore that fact.
Rustmonster 08-24-07, 08:18 PM	Phew, you got even snarkier in your last post there, Rustmonster. Levels 1-8: Can't raise dead at all. Roll up a new character. Levels 9-12: Can raise dead, lose a level. Levels 13-16: Can raise dead, lose a level, don't need most of the body. Levels 17+: Can raise dead, don't lose a level, don't need the body. Funny how it's easier to do as you level up. If your players whine, tell them to level up a little. So, something that you can't do for a little less than half the game shouldn't be an ordeal, huh? Getting your soul wrenched back from whatever plane it went to is just a day in the life, huh? Or, as it says in the description of Raise Dead, "Coming back from the dead is an ordeal." Yeah, it wastes time, money, and resources. You're also bringing back the dead, something that requires a Miracle from the Gods in most mythologies. But, if you wanna houserule it otherwise, feel free. My players don't need to be cut some slack when it comes to death. Maybe yours do because they die all the time. Part of the job of DMing is level-appropriate encounters. If they still die (because you've got that 5% (or whatever) of encounters you're supposed to run from), then talk to them and explain why. Since you simply can't be bothered to read the link I sent you, I'll summarize for you. "A character who is consistently one level below the rest of the party gains around 75,000 more experience than the rest." It was to show "being a lower level isn't that big of a burden, and is sometimes a boon." But, since the CO boards gave us Pun-Pun, all their material must be about game-breaking and not having fun, so let's ignore that fact. Wow, I'M being snarky. I never noticed. On a not hating you note, why are you seeming to assume that I don't think it should be a bad thing to die? I was just tryign to help the man/woman with their houserule. The CON thing was silly, so I was just suggesting that he/she simplify it. And yet again, It doesn't matter you get more "on average", because no matter how long you gain exp "faster", you will ALWAYS be behind.
DMs_Favourite 08-24-07, 08:50 PM	Only levels 1-6 you can't be brought from the grave... Granted you won't be in your body when you return.
koiulpoi 08-24-07, 11:07 PM	Only levels 1-6 you can't be brought from the grave... Granted you won't be in your body when you return. I'm a fan of 3.0 Reincarnate. The list was so much more fun. You can tell someone "Yeah, now you're a badger. Deal with it." It also had problems for things like "becoming a Dryad".
eamon 08-25-07, 04:56 AM	Given the way XP loss works, you can actually come out ahead if you start out behind. Put simply if you're only a little bit behind, but that little bit puts you a level lower than the rest of the party, and you defeat a "large" challenge, then the difference in XP gain can well exceed the difference between party members. Granted, it's a corner case, and I've never seen it happen, but it's possible ;-). What I do is simply accelerate XP gain for those characters that are a level behind. I let all characters that are a level behind gain 50% more XP than their compatriots (which is roughty twice the gain they normally get) It also makes XP calculations easier because you don't need to do two lookups. Once I explained to my players that I wanted them to grow into their characters and than starting off weaker and then "coming into your own" was part of that, they acceeded. Another nice benefit of accelerated XP gain for stragglers is that magic item creation is less of a hassle (since the XP-component is less annoying).
Rustmonster 08-25-07, 11:20 AM	Given the way XP loss works, you can actually come out ahead if you start out behind. Put simply if you're only a little bit behind, but that little bit puts you a level lower than the rest of the party, and you defeat a "large" challenge, then the difference in XP gain can well exceed the difference between party members. Granted, it's a corner case, and I've never seen it happen, but it's possible ;-). What I do is simply accelerate XP gain for those characters that are a level behind. I let all characters that are a level behind gain 50% more XP than their compatriots (which is roughty twice the gain they normally get) It also makes XP calculations easier because you don't need to do two lookups. Once I explained to my players that I wanted them to grow into their characters and than starting off weaker and then "coming into your own" was part of that, they acceeded. Another nice benefit of accelerated XP gain for stragglers is that magic item creation is less of a hassle (since the XP-component is less annoying). I personally use a different xp chart then the one in the DMG. I've always found it too complicated. The one I use gives static xp for the challange. Example: A CR 1 monster ALWAYS gives 300 xp, divided amongst the party. Three of them would therefore give 900, divided amongst the party, no matter what level anyone is. It works out really well, as you don't have to do any real math.
Dux_is_me 08-26-07, 12:12 AM	Unfortunately, it also means lots of small monsters make you level up faster than a single large one with the same encounter level.
Rustmonster 08-26-07, 01:52 PM	Unfortunately, it also means lots of small monsters make you level up faster than a single large one with the same encounter level. No, not really. The amount enemies give scales very nicely, so it's better to fight big guys then little ones. I could post the chart, if you'd like.
Seldriss 08-26-07, 09:26 PM	I know in advance I am not going to be popular by posting this, but I am already used to that with many of my house rules :rolleyes: So here are my penalties (in my campaign world) for being brought back to life : The subject loses one level, which cannot be restored. And one point of Constitution, which cannot be restored either. Furthermore, the subject is automatically converted to the deity of the "raiser" (cleric or any other spiritualist). Sometimes, this conversion has an effect on the alignment. What if he was raised from the dead from another kind of caster (like a mage) or a magic item ? Well, he cannot really, some magic can only be divine, or if it happens in some rare exceptions, the character is still converted to whatever deity allows this miracle, whether it is a god of magic or a god of death. This means that sometimes a character is not the same when he is brought back to life, as his point of view or alignment might change with his conversion. It is of course better for a character to be raised by a cleric of the same god than his. Which means also it is better to have a patron deity, whatever the class. If not, death might indeed be the door to a new life... If the character doesn't want to be brought back to life by a certain cleric (or for whatever reason), he has a saving throw. And if he was a pious devot of a religion, he can even try to call on his god's intervention to prevent this (little chance, but better than nothing). Of course, this works on NPCs too, which is actually sometimes a good way to turn them on your side after killing them. With some cautious diplomacy of course. And I should add that this conversion gives some XP to the cleric. I know, that's tough. I insist on the fact that these are rules for my own campaign world. If I DM on Forgotten realms, I don't use them. (go ahead, flame :D )
Dux_is_me 08-26-07, 10:21 PM	Post 'em, then.
Neutronium_Dragon 08-26-07, 11:22 PM	> Well, the way it is now, players fear it. They don't fear it. They're annoyed/frustrated by it. They're not the same thing, and the latter isn't good. As far as the "permanent negative level" approach - that was actually introduced to the gaming community by one of the 3E developers, who used it in his home campaign. Generally all of the negative levels are simply removed when the character levels up rather than basing it on Con.
Fsi-Dib 08-27-07, 03:05 AM	I've always had the normal procedure of "The character dies, it's not likely it's coming back" (partially because I dislike the ability to raise dead just about anyone) which leads to the player creating a new character at the same xp it left. It's nicer for the players, at least. I don't really like to set them back.
White_Whale 08-27-07, 03:59 AM	After a few weeks running my first campaign I realized that the standard "loose a level at death" rule did not go over well with my players. We worked with it for a while, but they became more and more annoyed with the EXP loss. So, we came up with a new house-rule: "death negative levels". When a PC dies, he gains a negative level (as per standard rules). This negative level can not be restored using any magical means. However, when the PC gains a new class level they may restore as many "death levels" as they have in Constitution bonus (e.g. they can restore 2 death levels if they have a CON bonus of +2). I'm not sure how well this balances overall, but for our game it seems to have worked out well. The fighter types (often big CON's) die often, but restore big; while spell caster types (low CON's) often hide in the back (and don't die as often). I know I would despise playing with a rule like this, as it would remove any chance of permanently dying. And that leads to people playing in stupid, heedless ways, IMO.
BobbyMac 08-27-07, 04:25 PM	http://www.hambo.com/rpg/rules/death.html
Seldriss 08-27-07, 05:31 PM	Post 'em, then. Huh, I did. And edited my post to put the points in bold.
Dux_is_me 08-27-07, 10:48 PM	I meant the variant experience chart Rustmonster uses;
Rustmonster 08-28-07, 11:40 AM	I meant the variant experience chart Rustmonster uses; Oh, I'll get around to that. Have to find it. And I'm in a bad mood, so it might have too many rants if I posted it now.