Per Encounter D&D [Archive] - Wizards Community

Per Encounter D&D [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kintara
11-27-05, 05:14 PM I was in a discussion (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=542660) on the Psionics board about the practical balance of the Psionic classes, and I got to thinking about how D&D is balanced per four encounters per day, and not per encounter. I don't particularly find the four encounters per day thing an especially good idea, neither the four part nor the per day part.

So I was thinking that it might be a good idea to divide the Power Point (PP) limit of the Psionics classes by four, and change the recharge rate so that a psion could reasonably recharge between most encounters. Somewhere on the minutes scale would be about right I think.

But one of the problems with this system is that durations wouldn't work properly, as psions would be able to recharge fast enough to throw the balance off by keeping them continually active for no appreciable cost. One solution I threw out was the idea of "committing" PP to powers with durations not set in rounds. If you commit your PP to a power, then it can't be recharged until you decide to uncommit the PP. I think that's a better and better idea as I continue to think about it. Powers with X minutes durations would be the most expensive to manifest because the normal system would make keeping such a power up continuously very expensive indeed. 10x minute durations would cost less, as it's reasonable to assume they were meant to be on for long enough to accomplish quite a bit. X hour durations would be the cheapest, as they were meant to be essentially continuous after a while.

The same ideas could be applied to the magic system, if you switch over to the MP system from UA, though it would probably require a bit of tweaking. The recharge magic system might also be a viable alternative, though I'm not too familiar with it. That would have the benefit of retaining some more variance between the systems, but I'm not sure how well they would "play together."

Anyway, I'm going to use this thread as a sort of worksheet for balancing D&D to work per encounter. Feel free to propose ways of doing this for the other classes as well, and please point out issues that you think might arise (but try not to focus too much on your opinion of the premise, as I do want to make this work).

Once a system starts to feel complete, I'll try to organize everything into something more reader-friendly. Right now, this is just an open worksheet.
Ulorian
11-27-05, 05:22 PM Sounds good! While you're at it, remove the other D&D hard-wired game balancer: character wealth.
Kintara
11-27-05, 05:27 PM Sounds good! While you're at it, remove the other D&D hard-wired game balancer: character wealth.Ahh. My friend, I believe you would enjoy Iron Heroes (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore).

Speaking of, I might as well attribute much of my ideas in advance to Mike Mearls, the Iron Heroes creator, who is now working at WotC! Per encounter balancing is an important element of IH, and the IH character classes may have to be ruthlessly mined for ideas. ;)

Honestly, though, that's another interesting topic, and I tend to agree with you about character wealth. I'll post something if I come up with a neat trick for balancing characters easily sans magical gadgetry.
agent_paper
11-27-05, 06:26 PM Okay, I've been looking over the rules for "vitalizing magic" and "recharge magic" in the Unearthed Arcana, and will summarize them here.

"Vitalizing" magic ties supernatural power to physical stamina. A spellcaster or manifester has (presumably) the same number of magic or power points, but after he or she spends approximately 1/2 of those points (or they are depleted through some other means, such as power leech), the character becomes fatigued. If the character loses 3/4 or more of his or her points, the character becomes exhausted. 1 hour of rest causes an exhausted character to become only fatigued, and refreshes the character to having 1/3 of his or her total points. An additional hour of rest replenishes the character to having 2/3 of the total points, but the character won't be replenished to full points until he or she has 6 more hours of rest (having a total of 8 hours rest). In addition, any effect which makes a charactre fatigued instead of exhausted, or cures fatigue (heal, restoration) also restore the appropriate amount of points (and vice vesa for effects which inflict fatigue).

Now, this is similar to what we want to accomplish, but isn't optimal for it. For one thing, this variant as a matter of intent raises the power level of casters/mainfesters somewhat, especially since the total number of points a character will have isn't changed. Also, we don't really want to force a system of hours of rest in between encounters, we just don't want eveything to contingent on the 8 hours of sleep and rest around which resources are measured in D&D currently.

The "recharge" variant is also not quite what we are looking for, I think. In this variant, when a spellcaster casts a spell, the character must then wait a certain number of rounds until he can cast a spell of that level again. It's quite simple and elegant, I think. The number of rounds is determined by how high a level the spell is relative to the highest spell level the character can cast, and spontaneous casters (sorcerers and bards, so on) always have a shorter wait time. Spells per day and points per day are no longer used with this variant - a character can cast or manifest anything whenever he wants so long as the wait time is over. I don't think we really want to get rid of the points system, per se, just alter it. As such, this variant will not do as it is.

That said, I think we could still derive some ideas from these examples.

Another thing to look at. In 2nd edition AD&D (I know, there goes the danger alarm), I believe there is a skill which psionicists have which they can use to replenish power points. I believe they also recover power points per hour regardless of what they are doing, though they regain more if they are resting or meditating (meditating being the skill - "rejuvenating" I believe it was called). This isn't much different from the vitalizing variant, but it still is in subtle ways. I was kind of thinking of something that let the manifester take a full round action, make a concentration check (as if attaining psionic focus), and regain something like 1 or 2 power points (maybe a number of power points equal to the character's level divided by 5). This could be done when not in battle (i.e. any situation in which you coudl take 10), but say it could only be done a certain number of times per hour - or the DM could make a limit of times in between encounters.

Any thoughts so far?
Ulorian
11-27-05, 06:51 PM Ahh. My friend, I believe you would enjoy Iron Heroes (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore).

Speaking of, I might as well attribute much of my ideas in advance to Mike Mearls, the Iron Heroes creator, who is now working at WotC! Per encounter balancing is an important element of IH, and the IH character classes may have to be ruthlessly mined for ideas. ;)

Honestly, though, that's another interesting topic, and I tend to agree with you about character wealth. I'll post something if I come up with a neat trick for balancing characters easily sans magical gadgetry.I own Iron Heroes actually (great system!). I guess you're referring to the token system (a pool of 'action points' that is reset after every encounter and is replenished through class-dependent actions during combat, for those who don't own the product). It is a great concept, although it seems heavy on bookkeeping. It would be nice if the idea could be expanded to spellcasting classes also.
Nightwhisper
11-28-05, 09:38 AM The Magic of Incarnum system is one that isn't balanced around a given number of encounters per day, and seems to be what the OP was looking for in regards to magic. An incarnum-wielding character (called a meldshaper) has a set number of spell effects (called soulmelds) depending on level, and to a lesser extent on feat choices, that they can empower with essence. Essence is never expended, it is just shifted from one soulmeld, class ability or other receptable to another.
So when you aren't expecting combat, you'd keep your essentia on defensive and utility soulmelds, and when combat starts, you shift the balance to power your offensive soulmelds instead/in addition of the others.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kintara 11-27-05, 05:14 PM	I was in a discussion (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=542660) on the Psionics board about the practical balance of the Psionic classes, and I got to thinking about how D&D is balanced per four encounters per day, and not per encounter. I don't particularly find the four encounters per day thing an especially good idea, neither the four part nor the per day part. So I was thinking that it might be a good idea to divide the Power Point (PP) limit of the Psionics classes by four, and change the recharge rate so that a psion could reasonably recharge between most encounters. Somewhere on the minutes scale would be about right I think. But one of the problems with this system is that durations wouldn't work properly, as psions would be able to recharge fast enough to throw the balance off by keeping them continually active for no appreciable cost. One solution I threw out was the idea of "committing" PP to powers with durations not set in rounds. If you commit your PP to a power, then it can't be recharged until you decide to uncommit the PP. I think that's a better and better idea as I continue to think about it. Powers with X minutes durations would be the most expensive to manifest because the normal system would make keeping such a power up continuously very expensive indeed. 10x minute durations would cost less, as it's reasonable to assume they were meant to be on for long enough to accomplish quite a bit. X hour durations would be the cheapest, as they were meant to be essentially continuous after a while. The same ideas could be applied to the magic system, if you switch over to the MP system from UA, though it would probably require a bit of tweaking. The recharge magic system might also be a viable alternative, though I'm not too familiar with it. That would have the benefit of retaining some more variance between the systems, but I'm not sure how well they would "play together." Anyway, I'm going to use this thread as a sort of worksheet for balancing D&D to work per encounter. Feel free to propose ways of doing this for the other classes as well, and please point out issues that you think might arise (but try not to focus too much on your opinion of the premise, as I do want to make this work). Once a system starts to feel complete, I'll try to organize everything into something more reader-friendly. Right now, this is just an open worksheet.
Ulorian 11-27-05, 05:22 PM	Sounds good! While you're at it, remove the other D&D hard-wired game balancer: character wealth.
Kintara 11-27-05, 05:27 PM	Sounds good! While you're at it, remove the other D&D hard-wired game balancer: character wealth.Ahh. My friend, I believe you would enjoy Iron Heroes (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore). Speaking of, I might as well attribute much of my ideas in advance to Mike Mearls, the Iron Heroes creator, who is now working at WotC! Per encounter balancing is an important element of IH, and the IH character classes may have to be ruthlessly mined for ideas. ;) Honestly, though, that's another interesting topic, and I tend to agree with you about character wealth. I'll post something if I come up with a neat trick for balancing characters easily sans magical gadgetry.
agent_paper 11-27-05, 06:26 PM	Okay, I've been looking over the rules for "vitalizing magic" and "recharge magic" in the Unearthed Arcana, and will summarize them here. "Vitalizing" magic ties supernatural power to physical stamina. A spellcaster or manifester has (presumably) the same number of magic or power points, but after he or she spends approximately 1/2 of those points (or they are depleted through some other means, such as power leech), the character becomes fatigued. If the character loses 3/4 or more of his or her points, the character becomes exhausted. 1 hour of rest causes an exhausted character to become only fatigued, and refreshes the character to having 1/3 of his or her total points. An additional hour of rest replenishes the character to having 2/3 of the total points, but the character won't be replenished to full points until he or she has 6 more hours of rest (having a total of 8 hours rest). In addition, any effect which makes a charactre fatigued instead of exhausted, or cures fatigue (heal, restoration) also restore the appropriate amount of points (and vice vesa for effects which inflict fatigue). Now, this is similar to what we want to accomplish, but isn't optimal for it. For one thing, this variant as a matter of intent raises the power level of casters/mainfesters somewhat, especially since the total number of points a character will have isn't changed. Also, we don't really want to force a system of hours of rest in between encounters, we just don't want eveything to contingent on the 8 hours of sleep and rest around which resources are measured in D&D currently. The "recharge" variant is also not quite what we are looking for, I think. In this variant, when a spellcaster casts a spell, the character must then wait a certain number of rounds until he can cast a spell of that level again. It's quite simple and elegant, I think. The number of rounds is determined by how high a level the spell is relative to the highest spell level the character can cast, and spontaneous casters (sorcerers and bards, so on) always have a shorter wait time. Spells per day and points per day are no longer used with this variant - a character can cast or manifest anything whenever he wants so long as the wait time is over. I don't think we really want to get rid of the points system, per se, just alter it. As such, this variant will not do as it is. That said, I think we could still derive some ideas from these examples. Another thing to look at. In 2nd edition AD&D (I know, there goes the danger alarm), I believe there is a skill which psionicists have which they can use to replenish power points. I believe they also recover power points per hour regardless of what they are doing, though they regain more if they are resting or meditating (meditating being the skill - "rejuvenating" I believe it was called). This isn't much different from the vitalizing variant, but it still is in subtle ways. I was kind of thinking of something that let the manifester take a full round action, make a concentration check (as if attaining psionic focus), and regain something like 1 or 2 power points (maybe a number of power points equal to the character's level divided by 5). This could be done when not in battle (i.e. any situation in which you coudl take 10), but say it could only be done a certain number of times per hour - or the DM could make a limit of times in between encounters. Any thoughts so far?
Ulorian 11-27-05, 06:51 PM	Ahh. My friend, I believe you would enjoy Iron Heroes (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore). Speaking of, I might as well attribute much of my ideas in advance to Mike Mearls, the Iron Heroes creator, who is now working at WotC! Per encounter balancing is an important element of IH, and the IH character classes may have to be ruthlessly mined for ideas. ;) Honestly, though, that's another interesting topic, and I tend to agree with you about character wealth. I'll post something if I come up with a neat trick for balancing characters easily sans magical gadgetry.I own Iron Heroes actually (great system!). I guess you're referring to the token system (a pool of 'action points' that is reset after every encounter and is replenished through class-dependent actions during combat, for those who don't own the product). It is a great concept, although it seems heavy on bookkeeping. It would be nice if the idea could be expanded to spellcasting classes also.
Nightwhisper 11-28-05, 09:38 AM	The Magic of Incarnum system is one that isn't balanced around a given number of encounters per day, and seems to be what the OP was looking for in regards to magic. An incarnum-wielding character (called a meldshaper) has a set number of spell effects (called soulmelds) depending on level, and to a lesser extent on feat choices, that they can empower with essence. Essence is never expended, it is just shifted from one soulmeld, class ability or other receptable to another. So when you aren't expecting combat, you'd keep your essentia on defensive and utility soulmelds, and when combat starts, you shift the balance to power your offensive soulmelds instead/in addition of the others.