Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duskey 11-29-04, 06:59 PM	Something that I've always missed in my campaigns is Perception which is used in many other roleplaying games. A spot check won't cut it since I want my chars to roll it when they sense danger or the likes. A typical example would be to notice that something is amiss (a rogue is about to stab you in the back, a ghost is very near or someone invisible just entered the room, but you didn't hear him) Normally I'd say a wisdom check, but I don't think that would cut it. Therefor I thought of this: Perception (Perc): 1d20 + ½ HD + Wisdom modifier + 2 with Alertness feat I included the ½ HD, 'cause the more experienced you get, the more you pay attention to the details and the more "mighty" you get.
LukiLoki 11-29-04, 07:14 PM	Sounds like a feat to me. A broken feat. I mean, really, I do not see the point. What is the use of putting ranks in Spot and Listen if any high HD creature has the chance to notice ANYTHING, just because they're alive. Nerfs stealth. Not balanced vs. Spot/Listen/Tremorsense/Blindsight, etc. etc. someone invisible just entered the room, but you didn't hear him Tough.
Duskey 11-29-04, 08:17 PM	Okay, that's a bit much so let me clarify: I want to use it when eg. a ghost walks through a person or something like that...I'm trying to think of all the times I've missed it in-game, though I can only think of this one thing right now.
kliate 11-29-04, 08:21 PM	A Ghost is very near: Detect Undead/Ghost's alignment. No spells = no detection until the ghost manifests (that's the point of the ghost). Someone invisible just entered the room, but you didn't hear him: Should have bought more ranks in listen, then. A rogue is about to stab you in the back: Again, a listen check. Perhaps a spot check if the rogue was careless enough to cast a shadow or kick something in front of you. "Perceptive" characters get two chances to notice something coming - one spot, one listen. If they decide to allow one to remain weaker than the others, then that's their choice and their risk. Creatures who focus on smashing things harder don't necessarily become more attentive at higher levels - their entire combat ability may actually come from a narrowed focus and concentration on their immediate target. In short, if you want to notice things take spot/listen ranks. Now - if you were proposing to replace spot/listen with a skill "Perception", that might be workable.
LukiLoki 11-29-04, 08:24 PM	I think it's the sort of thing that can be DMs call, without a mechanic. If you WANT there to be a chance for a PC to notice something "unnoticeable", in order to advance the adventure or whatever, an ad hoc roll behind the screen is fine. But make up a house rule and tell your players how it works and you'll have a bunch of Peter Parkers saying, "oooh, oooh, can I roll my Spidey sense now?"
Duskey 11-29-04, 08:57 PM	But make up a house rule and tell your players how it works and you'll have a bunch of Peter Parkers saying, "oooh, oooh, can I roll my Spidey sense now?" That could get rather...annoying About whether I want them to notice or not: I like to let the dice randomize things. I like random. I already boiled down the possibilities of perception, but I'm afraid I'll have to recall some of the specific situations before I can elaborate further.
Carpe DM 11-29-04, 10:51 PM	I've been using Perception in my past few games and it's worked out fine. I do it like this: Perception base is your Intelligence modifier plus your Wisdom modifier. Wisdom for your natural perceptive ability, and Intelligence because I figure if you're a naturally smarter person, you probably got that way by paying attention to detail. You add this to the result of a d20 roll to get your Perception check. In my games Perception replaces Spot, Listen, and Search. Those three things are no longer skills. Any bonus to any of those skills from a race or class is instead an equal bonus to Perception (which does, in fact, mean that an Elf gets a whopping +6 to Perception checks, but in my games I do not give them automatic weapon proficiencies, because I feel that is a social benefit, not a genetic one....but that's a different topic of discussion altogether). Any class that includes Spot, Search, or Listen as a class skill instead gets a +1 to Perception for each of those skills that is possesses as a class skill (for example, the Ranger who has all three as class skills instead gets a class-based +3 bonus to Perception). Instead of the Alertness feat, I have a feat called Improved Perception. It gives +4 to Perception checks. Because Perception is not a skill, you can't use Skill Focus with it. Does this weaken the effectiveness of things like Move Silently and Hide? To a degree. Since you can only minimally affect Perception's growth over time (via possible class-related benefits or the Improved Perception feat) then yes, a low-leveled person using Move Silently or Hide will have a better chance of being spotted or heard, in many cases. However, a person with many ranks in those skills stands a better chance in this system of being successful than in other systems. Dedication to the skill pays off, instead of a person having +15 to Move Silently and getting heard by the guard who conveniently has a +20 to Listen. I use this system for several reasons: 1: Spot, Listen, and Search didn't include all types of perceptive ability. Perception includes those features, as well as smelling, tasting, sense of touch, and general gut instinct. 2: I don't think it's reasonable that a person should be able to "gain ranks" in listening, spotting, or searching. Bearing in mind that D&D isn't based on the real world, I still think this is a little far-fetched. A person can improve their perceptive abilities a little bit (hence the possible feat), but it requires a lot of time and effort for a very small result (also why it's better as a feat than a skill). 3: Alot of people use Intelligence or Wisdom as a "dump" stat, in particular warrior types. Since Perception relies on both these stats, it makes both stats potentially more important to a warrior. Of course, Charisma is still not as useful, but I have other things that make it more useful to warriors - though that's a topic for a different discussion. Anyway, hope this is useful.
LukiLoki 11-30-04, 01:39 PM	1: Spot, Listen, and Search didn't include all types of perceptive ability. Perception includes those features, as well as smelling, tasting, sense of touch, and general gut instinct. My feeling is that this is a good thing. Since many non-human creatures with exceptional/unusual senses have Scent, Blindsight, Tremorsense and the like, standard PC's are often at a disadvantage against them, and this is by design. Those abilities are meaningless when anyone with a Wisdom score has them. Plus, in my view, any such system nerfs stealth.
hiryuu 11-30-04, 01:49 PM	2: I don't think it's reasonable that a person should be able to "gain ranks" in listening, spotting, or searching. Bearing in mind that D&D isn't based on the real world, I still think this is a little far-fetched. A person can improve their perceptive abilities a little bit (hence the possible feat), but it requires a lot of time and effort for a very small result (also why it's better as a feat than a skill). Ever since I was five, I used to go camping out with my uncle. His style of camping was knife and shorts, and nothing else. I've noticed that when I'm out on a hiking trail with friends, I point out more things and identify sounds much easier than they do. However, I'm nowhere near as good as a few professional herpetologists and ornithologists I've been out with. I know this is anecdotal evidence, but since we can't get together a control group and test group and devise an experiment here (something I'd very much like to do), it's what we have to go on. My hypothesis: it is possible to train your senses to perceive and decode your environment more efficiently, and people have vastly different levels of this awareness.
Carpe DM 12-01-04, 07:05 PM	LukiLoki, My feeling is that this is a good thing. Since many non-human creatures with exceptional/unusual senses have Scent, Blindsight, Tremorsense and the like, standard PC's are often at a disadvantage against them, and this is by design. Those abilities are meaningless when anyone with a Wisdom score has them. Not necessarily. Those feats give abilities above and beyond normal sensory perception. As the game is there isn't a skill check for smelling, but you can't tell me that people don't smell things differently from eachother. Here's a good example. Smokers don't usually smell their own cigarette smell, because they are bathed in it so often that they become more or less tolerant of it. Nonsmokers however can usually smell cigarette smoke pretty clearly. That's a situational circumstance, sure, but having the ability to make a die roll to smell, taste, or so forth does not in any way I can see "Defeat" the purpose of any feat in the game. Plus, in my view, any such system nerfs stealth. Explain how. I believe I explained in my post that given the relatively static nature of the Perception method I use (in other words, your Perception is unlikely to change over the course of the game), then if you have +4 to Perception, versus a low leveled Rogue's +4 Move Silently or Hide, then yes, you're going to be an even match. But as that Rogue goes up in level, his Move Silently and Hide abilities will get higher... +6, +10, or even better. Meanwhile, the other character's Perception is probably still going to be 4, maybe 5 or 6. So if anything, this Perception system -empowers- stealth. So please explain how making something better is the same as nerfing it. =) Hiryuu, Ever since I was five, I used to go camping out with my uncle. His style of camping was knife and shorts, and nothing else. I've noticed that when I'm out on a hiking trail with friends, I point out more things and identify sounds much easier than they do. However, I'm nowhere near as good as a few professional herpetologists and ornithologists I've been out with. I know this is anecdotal evidence, but since we can't get together a control group and test group and devise an experiment here (something I'd very much like to do), it's what we have to go on. My hypothesis: it is possible to train your senses to perceive and decode your environment more efficiently, and people have vastly different levels of this awareness. But, thinking in game terms, since this is something that happened unintentionally (in other words, you weren't purposefully TRYING to get better at it) can you honestly claim this is skill-related? You acquired it as you grew up, right? Thinking in game terms, as you grew up your stats got better, too. You grew stronger, more intelligent, and so forth. So it's very possible that your acuity is simply the result of a good stat that developed over time. Your friends may just have bad stats! =) Looking at it a different way, though, this is also a situational circumstance. While your ability to perceive the sounds of wildlife is better, I bet you couldn't distinguish between different types of automobile muffler systems based on sound. A professional muffler mechanic might be able to do so. So this is not an example of a "general" perception bonus that you got by training in a skill, it's an example of a situational modifier. Which brings me to an interesting idea: It seems reasonable to me that if a person has a particular Profession/Craft/Perform skill at 5 or more ranks, they should get a +2 syngergy bonus to Perception checks that directly involve that skill. So a Profession: Forester/Hunter/etc would get that perception bonus when in the wild listening to different types of animals. Someone with Perform: Singing would get a +2 perception modifier to determine audio differences between a person impersonating a famous singer. That kind of modifier system would work good in the example you gave. One might say, using a generic example, that because you'd done it your whole life, you might put ranks into your Profession: Camper skill. When it got to 5 ranks, you would have that synergy bonus to related perception checks - which is a good reason why you'd be a little more acute than your buddies.
LukiLoki 12-01-04, 07:31 PM	So please explain how making something better is the same as nerfing it. =) Uhhhh... because nerf is, um, good...? ;) It's kind of a knee-jerk thing on my part, so, to be honest, I don't think I read your initial post very carefully, sorry. But, in my defense, the post does contain the words Does this weaken the effectiveness of things like Move Silently and Hide? To a degree. . So I was taking your word for it. Yeah... that's it. Finally, in seriousness, hurting low-level rogues to help high-level rogues is questionable when the low-level rogue depends on stealth not only for effectiveness but often for his very survival, without which, he'll never see the benefit at higher levels.
hiryuu 12-01-04, 09:28 PM	Hiryuu, But, thinking in game terms, since this is something that happened unintentionally (in other words, you weren't purposefully TRYING to get better at it) can you honestly claim this is skill-related? You acquired it as you grew up, right? Thinking in game terms, as you grew up your stats got better, too. You grew stronger, more intelligent, and so forth. So it's very possible that your acuity is simply the result of a good stat that developed over time. Your friends may just have bad stats! =) Looking at it a different way, though, this is also a situational circumstance. While your ability to perceive the sounds of wildlife is better, I bet you couldn't distinguish between different types of automobile muffler systems based on sound. A professional muffler mechanic might be able to do so. So this is not an example of a "general" perception bonus that you got by training in a skill, it's an example of a situational modifier. Which brings me to an interesting idea: It seems reasonable to me that if a person has a particular Profession/Craft/Perform skill at 5 or more ranks, they should get a +2 syngergy bonus to Perception checks that directly involve that skill. So a Profession: Forester/Hunter/etc would get that perception bonus when in the wild listening to different types of animals. Someone with Perform: Singing would get a +2 perception modifier to determine audio differences between a person impersonating a famous singer. That kind of modifier system would work good in the example you gave. One might say, using a generic example, that because you'd done it your whole life, you might put ranks into your Profession: Camper skill. When it got to 5 ranks, you would have that synergy bonus to related perception checks - which is a good reason why you'd be a little more acute than your buddies. Actually, being in the woods is just one example. I've found I have a much greater sensory acuity overall. I hear things my mechanic doesn't until I point them out, I have a good sense of road traffic, I can hear problems with speakers that other people I'm with don't, and I can read street signs from a distance nearly twice where my mother can. I can hear the difference between a v6 and a v8, I can tell you if I need to service my engine. But again, I'm nowhere nearly as aware as people who've devoted themselves to it completely. I'm fairly certain military or government professionals make me look like I'm blind and deaf, and I know a couple people that do (those ornithologists really creep me out with what they can hear). I can currently identify no less than seven different sounds in my apartment: my fridge humming, the buzzing of the flourescent bulb in my kitchen, the AC, my processor fan, my PC's hard drive spinning, green tree frogs outside my window (they make a quank quank repeating call, in case you're wondering), and the older woman below me watching television (she's watching a scrapbooking show she must have taped earlier today, I heard someone mention scissors and prints, and I heard the telltale sound of the Discovery channel being touted). As I said before, I still don't think I'm anywhere near what kind of potential a human being can acheive. Heck, just deciding to be consciously aware of your surroundings could possibly reveal more than you think, and who's to say you can't train yourself to better decode and understand the sensory images your collection organs are sending you? Try it out.
Duskey 12-01-04, 10:30 PM	Okay you convinced me, I will NOT include this HR and if the rare situation should arise, I'll have them roll wisdom checks with a +2 if they have alertness or the likes. Thanks for all your comments!
Carpe DM 12-02-04, 10:38 AM	LukiLoki, While I agree that low-leveled characters need whatever help they can get, at the same time, if every low level character had an easy time of it, then there'd end up being a ton of high level characters instead. Besides, you think life sucks as a low-leveled rogue? Try being a low-leveled Sorceror. =D In a different point though, if you look at two characters who both have 10 in every stat, with no feats to boost skills/perception and both are human and not of a class that boosts perception inherently, the one being snuck up on would have +0 to Perception checks while the sneaker would potentially have +4 from skill ranks at level 1. So even at a low level, it depends heavily on the individual. By that same token, an elven ranger with an 18 in both Intelligence and Wisdom would have a tidy +17 to Perception checks. Owch. If he threw Improved Perception on top it'd be +21. For your reference, that's just about the best Perception you can ever get, aside from ability score gains above 18. You could also have that nice roll at Level 1. But you'd be playing a character more or less made specifically to be perceptive, I would say. Besides, I think it adds an interesting flair to elves. Trying to sneak up on an elf is like trying to make ice in an oven, it's pretty tough unless you -really- make a plan (you know, such as placing a bucket of liquid nitrogen into the oven first, and then sticking the cup of water into the bucket, such that the water becomes ice despite the surrounding oven temperature). Hiryuu, I do understand your point, but I don't think what you're describing is a skill-related gain. To gain ranks in a skill you have to purposefully study, practice, and hone your abilities. Hanging out on a boat isn't the same as training yourself to swim better, even though the two could go hand in hand. Likewise, hanging out in the woods isn't the same as making yourself hear better. Some people in the world are just naturally better at some things than other people, and that's what ability scores represent. Chances are you are probably fairly perceptive about other things, also. One aspect of the mind is rarely sharp if the others are dull and crude...in other words, most people (there are a few exceptions) who are dim-witted in one aspect probably are in most other aspects, while people who are intelligent in one area are probably intelligent in other areas (and before you think it, I don't mean book-smarts here. A person can be the best doctor in the land and know nothing about astronomy. But if you look at I.Q., a given person has a general rating, because intelligence is really the "brain's capacity to process information"). Now, why do I say this? Because I can tell just talking to you briefly right now that you have a better overall clarity of mind than many people in the world have. You can type clear and concise sentences with good spelling and grammar, and excellent sentence structure. You use larger than average words. You also roleplay - and roleplaying itself typically requires a fairly sharp mind, because of the amount of rules and information in the game. Anybody can play Final Fantasy because the rules are all hidden. You don't know how it calculates damage, just if you equip a weapon with a higher "attack power" you do more. Easy. Tabletop roleplaying is considerably more complex. You also reference two different internal components of your PC...your processor fan and hard drive spinning. Do you have any idea how many PC users in the world couldn't describe those sounds? Most people don't even know a hard drive spins! You also recognize the sound of the Discovery channel, indicating you probably watch that channel from time to time - that's a smart person channel. You also mention that you've been out in the woods with professional herpetologists and ornithologists....a stupid person wouldn't even be able to spell those words, let alone remember them, and probably wouldn't have an interest in going out in the woods and listening to them talk about scientific things. Point is - high stats, not skills. In a normal D&D model of Spot and Listen, this would mean you just have a high Wisdom (16-18). But in my system, I can take into account that a person who is also more intelligent is more perceptive, because my system uses both intelligence and wisdom. I would imagine you also have a more acute sense of taste....if you tried, you could probably tell the difference by flavor alone between, say, green cabbage and purple cabbage. Alot of people can't. So the question you may ask is, why should intelligence be included in perception? Easy! If you're not smart enough to know that you don't know something, then how could you be smart enough to know what you aren't perceiving something? Wisdom, as I see it, represents natural inherant perceptive ability. Intelligence represents perceptive ability gained by nature of being an intelligent person (remember, intelligent doesn't mean you have alot of skills...you may not ever have reached the potential you could have had). That's why with my perception system, a dullard (Int 6) who is naturally perceptive and has good common sense (Wisdom 16) ends up with only a +1 to perception. His natural abilities are somewhat counteracted by his lack of worldly knowledge. He doesn't know enough to know he doesn't know enough.
SearcherOmega 12-02-04, 04:09 PM	You might want to consider using the Intuition talent from the Dedicated Hero class from d20 Modern. Turn it into a feat, and perhaps auto-roll (in secret) for the players. "The Dedicated Hero has the innate ability to sense trouble in the air. The Dedicated hero can make a Will saving throw (DC 15). On a successful save, the hero gets a hunch that everything is all right, or she gets a bad feeling about a specific situation, based on the GM's best guess relating to circumstances." Will save makes sense -- as you go up in level, so does your Will save, so there's no need for 1/2 HD. Clerics, Druids, Monks, and Bards, who are generally perceptive individuals, will have a better chance at this, but everyone's chance at it will improve with level regardless. Wisdom is already factored into Will saves. I'd allow them to take a feat with that descriptor, make the roll in secret (so they don't know that something might be wrong) and inform them if they succeed. I'd also let them use it proactively if they're suspicious about a situation, but not let them see the roll result. That prettymuch sounds like what you're looking for. Of course, there is the whole argument about whether pro-active saves make sense, but that's another can of worms entirely.
Kadasbrass 12-02-04, 04:52 PM	The old West End Games Star Wars had Perception as one of the six abilites. It back then was your 'common sense,' ability to influence people, sense stuff around you, your ability to react, and resist mind afecting. It was more of an combination of Cha, Wis, and Initiative. Infact perception would of been used to detect something when your normally wouldn't detect it. Kind of an "Okay something doesn't feel right with me" type thing. So I can see why someone would want an perception ability. Could use initiative instead of wis. Its something you really gotta limit, maybe only roll for players with an Score of X or higher, or roll for the highest player.
priest of blipdoolpoolp 12-02-04, 08:56 PM	I agree with Dusky on this... I'd like something more akin to Alternity's awareness skill or something. The spot/listen checks are good when used individually, but there are going to be times when both rolls annoyingly come into play. ie when a monster or thief approaches, roll a spot first to notice a shadow, then listen to hear, then, etc. I'd like a single surprise roll to sum things up.
Degobah 12-03-04, 07:39 AM	I've been considering using a house rule where Perception is a save category, same as Fort, Ref, and Will. So some classes (Rogue or Ranger for instance) would have a good Per save, and some classes wouldn't. Characters would then roll Perception saves for example against illusions (including Invisibility), to detect secret doors, or to Spot/listen etc. As it stands the Spot and Listen skills are overpowered, and it always offends me that to keep up with the joneses a D & D character has to spend its pitiful few skill points to not be blind and deaf.
Duskey 12-05-04, 05:02 PM	Hmm, you guys gave me a thought. I'm surprised I didn't think of Intuition from the Dedicated Hero of Modern d20 since i only play D&D and Modern d20 currently. Here goes: New Feat: Intuition Prerequsites: Alertness, Wisdom 15+ Benefit:Just like the intuition from Modern d20, except that you can use it as many times per day as your wisdom modifier...how's that?
Ut-Napishtim 12-06-04, 03:59 AM	Actually IIRC the original (1E) Unearthed Arcana included Perception as an optional ability acore along with Comeliness and Speed. Peronally I think the 3.0/3.5 Spot and Listen skills cover this effectively enough for my taste. As a DM if I feel someone should get a sense about something, then they do. For example the PC Ranger with Undead as his first chosen enemy in my group might get a tingling on the back of his neck when he subconciously picks up the scent of Ghouls nearby. No rolling or special abilities required.
Duskey 12-06-04, 08:08 AM	I created the new feat out on the feats board where it belongs: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4989960 I've unsubscribed this thread, pm me if you have something new to add