Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SlinkyTWF 04-25-07, 02:59 PM	One thing I came across when revising my rules set is that I noticed WotC uses "permanent" to refer to both effects that can be dispelled and those which are truly permanent. Thought I'd mention it for the benefit of the audience and for the WotC editorial staff. What I did was, in these cases, to change "Permanent" to read "Persistent." Permanent: Is either a permanent change, e.g., the stoneshape spell, or can only be suppressed, not dispelled, e.g., the permanency spell. Persistent: Can be dispelled or is persistent for an indefinite period until triggered. Unlike the ubiquitous employment of the word, "Level," it's a subtle distinction, but there was a situation where I found that the distinction was useful (and I'm darned if I can't remember what it was).
Evil DM Mk3 04-25-07, 03:03 PM	Spells that have been made perminent CAN be dispelled. Otherwise they would be VERY VERY cheap slotless items.
Mind Rogue 04-25-07, 10:38 PM	I think the distinction is totally not necessary. A permanent spell is one, that left to its own devices, will last indefinitely, such as Baleful Polymorph, Mark of Justice, Permanent Image or a spell that has been affected by the Permanency spell. These spells can be dispelled, although in some cases, such as the Mark of Justice, they may require powerful spellcasters or unusual spells to do so. Even some spells, such as Magic Mouth and Programmed Image are "Permanent until discharged" which means that they will last forever until something happens to trigger them. Compare this to, say the Persistent Spell feat from Forgotten Realms/Complete Arcane; the spell lasts 24 hours rather than its normal duration. A persistent spell, if left to its own devices, will eventually end; a permanent spell will not do that. There are a few spells and abilities with similar durations, such as Endure Elements and a number of warlock powers that are similarly persistent. The root of the problem is that you are confusing "permanent" with "indestructable". A house is a permanent structure; assuming nothing happens to destroy it, it will be around forever. However, eventually things like wrecking balls or the weather might cause enough damage to it to destroy it and then down comes the house. By the way, Stone Shape is instantaneous, not permanent. Once the stone has been sculpted by the spell, the magic is gone. As such, the spell is far from permanent, although its effects might be. This is similar to a Cure spell or a Fireball: the spell lasts only a moment, but it has long lasting effects.
Morwen 04-26-07, 07:53 PM	Permanent: Is either a permanent change, e.g., the stoneshape spell, or can only be suppressed, not dispelled, e.g., the permanency spell. The effects made permanent by the permanency spell can be dispelled as normal, as the spell description says :) The only exception is if you cast permanency on yourself, in which case the effect can only be dispelled by a caster with a higher caster level than you had at the time you cast the permanency spell.