phobias & "morale penalty" [Archive] - Wizards Community

phobias & "morale penalty" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cinder
07-26-04, 01:57 PM Wondering if anyone besides me has had played with a phobia or some other mental disorder. The daily toll of adventuring would seem to bring about a few cracks in ones' sanity, but it appears as if the majority of players are only ever concerned with hit points. With help from UA, there are now lots of things you can officially be afraid of. :P

Anywho, for me, previously, the DM has made the DC/results for a phobia check "on the fly" which has umm, had a lot of variation including having me curl up into a little ball. The rules in UA seem to ballpark it somewhat, giving a DC 15 Will save and a "-2 Morale penalty."

I've looked, and looked- no luck finding what this "morale penalty," although there is an entry on "morale bonus" in the glossary, but it essentially only says multiple morale bopnuses don't stack. So can someone please open my eye and tell me what a morale penalty would apply to? "Shaken" is -2 to to just about everything and I'm hoping morale isn't the same.
Cinder
07-29-04, 02:22 PM so not one of the 30 people who read the post has ever had an in-game phobia or has a thought about the idea?

and not one of those same 30 people has a clue about morale penalties?

wow. i woulda lost that bet. :P
Cinder
08-22-04, 02:03 AM A month later, I'm still without an answer. The DM has been using the effects for Shaken which is described as "Mildly fearful", translating to a -2 penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks.

Geesh, did they leave anything out?! 'Could have simply said, "-2 to everything sucker" and gotten it over with. lol The problem I'm having is that the DM is adjusting the DC for the Will saves way to high. The norm is 15, and he's having me roll DC 21 for seeing a Searing Ray. :rolleyes:

If ya can't help me figuring out what the 'Morale Penalty' applies to {page 204 does say that Unearthed Arcana: Where appropriate, suggested modifiers to characters' attack rolls, saves, and checks are also given...which would put it in line with being 'Shaken.'} then what about this-

is there anyone able to come up with a quick table of various DC's, higher and lower than 15, for someone with pyrophobia?
Elzaban the Ethereal
08-22-04, 10:01 AM One of the short-term games I ran had a dendrophobic necromancer (fear of trees). I ruled that the morale penalty affected all d20 rolls (attack, save, skill checks, caster level, etc.) the player made while in the area of the trees. I suppose it sort of sucked for him that the area that the game started in was moderately forested...
Rosisha
09-06-04, 06:13 PM Hey Cinder,

I hope I can provide some help with my recent attempts to jump around on the happy bandwagon of Sanity and Phobias.

First, one quick comment. DC's of over 20 for something you probably see a lot of, is really ridiculous. For example, is your character going to have to roll a DC 21 everytime you see a torch? No. In fact, in those situations I would rule that you should RP shying away from the flame, being on the outside of the lighted area, only getting closer if something bigger and nastier is approaching (or maybe give you a bonus to attack and damage rolls as you slaughter whatever gets close so you can keep away from the flame... motivation does wonders :D ) But thats me.

Anywho, you probably are more interested in a direct answer on morale huh?

Morale doesn't effect anything in particular. In fact, morale is like a luck bonus. You can have a +1 luck bonus to attack rolls, or a +1 luck bonus to Fort saves. Just as you can have a +4 Morale Bonus against Fear (when within ten feet of a Paladin of the appropriate level) or a -4 morale bonus against attack rolls when fighting a fire creature (in your case).

This is where things start to get tricky. Your DM has to be very careful he doesn't abuse this morale thing to much (or its no fun to play.. see notes above about getting used to small fires). I would say amount of failure of the will save results in how effected you are, from just an RP penalty of you want to keep away, all the way to curled up on the floor in a catatonic ball.

I worked up a chart that you might find helpful:

DC 5 Events
Penalty for Failure: -1 Morale Bonus to any one roll or save

Someone waves small or tiny flame towards you (within 10').
Someone starts a raging bonfire within 20' of you.
Fire based spell takes place near you, but not directed at you - by ally.
Enemy is known to use fire as a weapon.

DC 10 Events
Penalty for Failure: -2 Morale Bonus to any one roll or save, or -1 Moral Bonus to 2 to 3 rolls or saves.

Fire based spell takes place near you, but not directed at you - by enemy.
Someone agressively waves a small or tiny flame towards you
Caught or pushed near fireplace
Someone using medium or large flame near you (within 20')

DC 15 Events
Penalty for Failure: -4 Morale Bonus to any one roll or save, or -2 Moral Bonus to 2 to 3 rolls or saves.

Fire based spell directed at you, but misses.
Someone agressively waves a medium or larger flame towards you.
Someone uses Alchemist fire at you or your group.
Hurt by small or tiny flame.

DC 20 Events
Penalty for Failure: -6 Morale Bonus to any one roll or save, or -4 Moral Bonus to 2 to 3 rolls or saves.

Fire based spell directed at you and causes damage.
Caught or damaged by some other fire based attack, from a medium or larger flame.
Hurt by Alchemist Fire
Near raging inferno or forest fire.

Anyway, hope that helps! Also, don't forget that alchemy drugs can make you a happy human being! And when I post my steampunk campaign, input would be welcome (hint hint ;) )

Rosisha
Cinder
09-07-04, 02:03 AM DC's of over 20 for something you see a lot of, is really ridiculous. Tell me about it. But thats just what happened. :rolleyes: Granted, it was a Searing Ray and not just a torch, but com'on! So what is a good, rule-based argument to show how that this level of DC is outta whack? (it seems the DC's for these saves have been rising to keep up with my improvement in WILL) Like what is another comparison I could give involving save DC's showing what is and isn't appropriate? Morale doesn't effect anything in particular. In fact, morale is like a luck bonus. You can have {edit} Ahh. I get it now. But shouldn't UA have specified what this morale penalty did and not do? Or did they mean to leave it up to the DM to decide?Your DM has to be very careful he doesn't abuse this morale thing to much (or its no fun to play..) Thats kind of whats happened. I came up with the pyrophobic idea awhile ago and its been kind of ad hoc'd as we go, but too many times I've curled up in a ball. The other players just groan or sigh when it happens, or make jokes. I think the lesson here for DM's is that if a player wants to add some depth to his character and really stretch with the roleplaying, don't over-penalize them for this.

When UA came out, and the DC was 15, I fumed, but its understandable that certain things will affect someone differently. Anywho, I liked the chart; its a good starting point. I'd be curious where you'd put fighting a flaming creature (such as an elemental) and whether knowingly having protection would help as character with a certain phobia. For example, what if I had a Resist Elements cast upon me? What about a Ring of Fire Resistance? I appreciate all the work. Send me a PM when you do your Steampunk stuff so I can return the thanks.
Rosisha
09-07-04, 08:33 AM Glad to be of some help. I'll try to answer your specific questions here to the best of my ability! The nice thing about this, is it is really allowing me to work out my own system (which is a blatant rip off of UA and Ravenloft :))

On Spells
You raised a question on spells, which I'd like to adress right away. This is how I would handle spells:

Fire Spell - Used by Ally
DC = 5 + Spell Level

Fire Spell - Used by Enemy, directed against Ally
DC = 10 + Spell Level

Fire Spell - Used by Enemy, directed against you
DC = 15 + Spell Level

Fire Spell - Bonuses to Will Save
Under Spell Protection = +2
Under Your own Spell Protection = +4
Magical Item Resistence = +3
General Magical Item Protection = +1

Fire Spell - Penalties to Will Save
Enemy has already used fire spell = -1
Fires caused by enemies or allies in area = -1

Note, these bonuses would apply to all will saves. Magical Item resistence is a magical item specifically designed to resist against fire. General magical item protection are things like Bracers of Defense, or a Ring of Protection. They can protect you, and you know it, but they aren't specifically meant for fire.

On Morale Saves
Now onto how to handle morale saves. What your DM is doing is just as bad as player metagaming. What he is attempting to do is either A) force you to RP, or B) he thinks he is making the game funnier/more entertaining. I've run into this problem before where I make a character who has a quirk which I give him to provide character and interest, and everyone warps it and makes it into a joke. The last character I played was straight laced and everyone said he was boring! Well, no one likes it when their character is mocked, and then XP penalized for not wanting to participate :)

I would suggest you show this to your DM. I talked to my group about it, and the problem was solved. Sometimes they don't know what is going on, but from what you're saying, I think you are in the same boat as I am!

Now, rule number one is that once a DC for a save is determined, that DC is the same. It should not be adjusted by level or what not, nor should it change arbitrarily, its unfair to your character and your efforts at RPing. Your will save goes up because as you advance in levels, supposedly your character is becoming more able to cope. I just read a newspaper article about a women who kept exposing herself to motorcycles because she was terrified of them, but now rides like she was born on one. Constant exposure helped her conquer her fear.

For you its a little different. Fire might hurt you, but at the same time, you can get better. Whats the point of playing a character who grows and evolves if you do not grow and evolve???? It is always possible to conquer your fear! I'd say you need to sit down with the DM and have a serious talk to him about this, and also make him right down the DC numbers. Everyone has a right to know what rules are being played under, and you should be able to roll anyway. This isn't like disabling a trap, you're going to know if you failed or not because he has to tell you anyway. Its easier for him to simply say: "I wrote up this DC chart, when you see fire, roll on it. Follow the guide lines."

Then if you keep failing, I'd suggest new dice.

On Fire Creatures
Your other question was on fighting creatures made of fire. I'd say treat the fire creatures as someone using fire aggresively.

Small or Tiny = DC 5
Medium = DC 10
Large = DC 15
+5 DC for each size category beyond large.

For creatures of medium size or larger not attacking you directly, drop the DC by 5.

I'll send a PM once I get the stuff up. Should be sometime today, I just need to format it correctly. Will be in the homebrew section of course :)

rosisha

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cinder 07-26-04, 01:57 PM	Wondering if anyone besides me has had played with a phobia or some other mental disorder. The daily toll of adventuring would seem to bring about a few cracks in ones' sanity, but it appears as if the majority of players are only ever concerned with hit points. With help from UA, there are now lots of things you can officially be afraid of. :P Anywho, for me, previously, the DM has made the DC/results for a phobia check "on the fly" which has umm, had a lot of variation including having me curl up into a little ball. The rules in UA seem to ballpark it somewhat, giving a DC 15 Will save and a "-2 Morale penalty." I've looked, and looked- no luck finding what this "morale penalty," although there is an entry on "morale bonus" in the glossary, but it essentially only says multiple morale bopnuses don't stack. So can someone please open my eye and tell me what a morale penalty would apply to? "Shaken" is -2 to to just about everything and I'm hoping morale isn't the same.
Cinder 07-29-04, 02:22 PM	so not one of the 30 people who read the post has ever had an in-game phobia or has a thought about the idea? and not one of those same 30 people has a clue about morale penalties? wow. i woulda lost that bet. :P
Cinder 08-22-04, 02:03 AM	A month later, I'm still without an answer. The DM has been using the effects for Shaken which is described as "Mildly fearful", translating to a -2 penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks. Geesh, did they leave anything out?! 'Could have simply said, "-2 to everything sucker" and gotten it over with. lol The problem I'm having is that the DM is adjusting the DC for the Will saves way to high. The norm is 15, and he's having me roll DC 21 for seeing a Searing Ray. :rolleyes: If ya can't help me figuring out what the 'Morale Penalty' applies to {page 204 does say that Unearthed Arcana: Where appropriate, suggested modifiers to characters' attack rolls, saves, and checks are also given...which would put it in line with being 'Shaken.'} then what about this- is there anyone able to come up with a quick table of various DC's, higher and lower than 15, for someone with pyrophobia?
Elzaban the Ethereal 08-22-04, 10:01 AM	One of the short-term games I ran had a dendrophobic necromancer (fear of trees). I ruled that the morale penalty affected all d20 rolls (attack, save, skill checks, caster level, etc.) the player made while in the area of the trees. I suppose it sort of sucked for him that the area that the game started in was moderately forested...
Rosisha 09-06-04, 06:13 PM	Hey Cinder, I hope I can provide some help with my recent attempts to jump around on the happy bandwagon of Sanity and Phobias. First, one quick comment. DC's of over 20 for something you probably see a lot of, is really ridiculous. For example, is your character going to have to roll a DC 21 everytime you see a torch? No. In fact, in those situations I would rule that you should RP shying away from the flame, being on the outside of the lighted area, only getting closer if something bigger and nastier is approaching (or maybe give you a bonus to attack and damage rolls as you slaughter whatever gets close so you can keep away from the flame... motivation does wonders :D ) But thats me. Anywho, you probably are more interested in a direct answer on morale huh? Morale doesn't effect anything in particular. In fact, morale is like a luck bonus. You can have a +1 luck bonus to attack rolls, or a +1 luck bonus to Fort saves. Just as you can have a +4 Morale Bonus against Fear (when within ten feet of a Paladin of the appropriate level) or a -4 morale bonus against attack rolls when fighting a fire creature (in your case). This is where things start to get tricky. Your DM has to be very careful he doesn't abuse this morale thing to much (or its no fun to play.. see notes above about getting used to small fires). I would say amount of failure of the will save results in how effected you are, from just an RP penalty of you want to keep away, all the way to curled up on the floor in a catatonic ball. I worked up a chart that you might find helpful: DC 5 Events Penalty for Failure: -1 Morale Bonus to any one roll or save Someone waves small or tiny flame towards you (within 10'). Someone starts a raging bonfire within 20' of you. Fire based spell takes place near you, but not directed at you - by ally. Enemy is known to use fire as a weapon. DC 10 Events Penalty for Failure: -2 Morale Bonus to any one roll or save, or -1 Moral Bonus to 2 to 3 rolls or saves. Fire based spell takes place near you, but not directed at you - by enemy. Someone agressively waves a small or tiny flame towards you Caught or pushed near fireplace Someone using medium or large flame near you (within 20') DC 15 Events Penalty for Failure: -4 Morale Bonus to any one roll or save, or -2 Moral Bonus to 2 to 3 rolls or saves. Fire based spell directed at you, but misses. Someone agressively waves a medium or larger flame towards you. Someone uses Alchemist fire at you or your group. Hurt by small or tiny flame. DC 20 Events Penalty for Failure: -6 Morale Bonus to any one roll or save, or -4 Moral Bonus to 2 to 3 rolls or saves. Fire based spell directed at you and causes damage. Caught or damaged by some other fire based attack, from a medium or larger flame. Hurt by Alchemist Fire Near raging inferno or forest fire. Anyway, hope that helps! Also, don't forget that alchemy drugs can make you a happy human being! And when I post my steampunk campaign, input would be welcome (hint hint ;) ) Rosisha
Cinder 09-07-04, 02:03 AM	DC's of over 20 for something you see a lot of, is really ridiculous. Tell me about it. But thats just what happened. :rolleyes: Granted, it was a Searing Ray and not just a torch, but com'on! So what is a good, rule-based argument to show how that this level of DC is outta whack? (it seems the DC's for these saves have been rising to keep up with my improvement in WILL) Like what is another comparison I could give involving save DC's showing what is and isn't appropriate? Morale doesn't effect anything in particular. In fact, morale is like a luck bonus. You can have {edit} Ahh. I get it now. But shouldn't UA have specified what this morale penalty did and not do? Or did they mean to leave it up to the DM to decide?Your DM has to be very careful he doesn't abuse this morale thing to much (or its no fun to play..) Thats kind of whats happened. I came up with the pyrophobic idea awhile ago and its been kind of ad hoc'd as we go, but too many times I've curled up in a ball. The other players just groan or sigh when it happens, or make jokes. I think the lesson here for DM's is that if a player wants to add some depth to his character and really stretch with the roleplaying, don't over-penalize them for this. When UA came out, and the DC was 15, I fumed, but its understandable that certain things will affect someone differently. Anywho, I liked the chart; its a good starting point. I'd be curious where you'd put fighting a flaming creature (such as an elemental) and whether knowingly having protection would help as character with a certain phobia. For example, what if I had a Resist Elements cast upon me? What about a Ring of Fire Resistance? I appreciate all the work. Send me a PM when you do your Steampunk stuff so I can return the thanks.
Rosisha 09-07-04, 08:33 AM	Glad to be of some help. I'll try to answer your specific questions here to the best of my ability! The nice thing about this, is it is really allowing me to work out my own system (which is a blatant rip off of UA and Ravenloft :)) On Spells You raised a question on spells, which I'd like to adress right away. This is how I would handle spells: Fire Spell - Used by Ally DC = 5 + Spell Level Fire Spell - Used by Enemy, directed against Ally DC = 10 + Spell Level Fire Spell - Used by Enemy, directed against you DC = 15 + Spell Level Fire Spell - Bonuses to Will Save Under Spell Protection = +2 Under Your own Spell Protection = +4 Magical Item Resistence = +3 General Magical Item Protection = +1 Fire Spell - Penalties to Will Save Enemy has already used fire spell = -1 Fires caused by enemies or allies in area = -1 Note, these bonuses would apply to all will saves. Magical Item resistence is a magical item specifically designed to resist against fire. General magical item protection are things like Bracers of Defense, or a Ring of Protection. They can protect you, and you know it, but they aren't specifically meant for fire. On Morale Saves Now onto how to handle morale saves. What your DM is doing is just as bad as player metagaming. What he is attempting to do is either A) force you to RP, or B) he thinks he is making the game funnier/more entertaining. I've run into this problem before where I make a character who has a quirk which I give him to provide character and interest, and everyone warps it and makes it into a joke. The last character I played was straight laced and everyone said he was boring! Well, no one likes it when their character is mocked, and then XP penalized for not wanting to participate :) I would suggest you show this to your DM. I talked to my group about it, and the problem was solved. Sometimes they don't know what is going on, but from what you're saying, I think you are in the same boat as I am! Now, rule number one is that once a DC for a save is determined, that DC is the same. It should not be adjusted by level or what not, nor should it change arbitrarily, its unfair to your character and your efforts at RPing. Your will save goes up because as you advance in levels, supposedly your character is becoming more able to cope. I just read a newspaper article about a women who kept exposing herself to motorcycles because she was terrified of them, but now rides like she was born on one. Constant exposure helped her conquer her fear. For you its a little different. Fire might hurt you, but at the same time, you can get better. Whats the point of playing a character who grows and evolves if you do not grow and evolve???? It is always possible to conquer your fear! I'd say you need to sit down with the DM and have a serious talk to him about this, and also make him right down the DC numbers. Everyone has a right to know what rules are being played under, and you should be able to roll anyway. This isn't like disabling a trap, you're going to know if you failed or not because he has to tell you anyway. Its easier for him to simply say: "I wrote up this DC chart, when you see fire, roll on it. Follow the guide lines." Then if you keep failing, I'd suggest new dice. On Fire Creatures Your other question was on fighting creatures made of fire. I'd say treat the fire creatures as someone using fire aggresively. Small or Tiny = DC 5 Medium = DC 10 Large = DC 15 +5 DC for each size category beyond large. For creatures of medium size or larger not attacking you directly, drop the DC by 5. I'll send a PM once I get the stuff up. Should be sometime today, I just need to format it correctly. Will be in the homebrew section of course :) rosisha