Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 09-15-05, 12:34 AM	One aspect of CRPGs that D&D doesn't reflect is the piecemail armor system many games have. I would like to explore the possibilities of adding such a system to the standard game, and even games which use armor as AC/DR, or those who use armor as only DR. But the first rule will be that the system has to remain simple. I believe there are largely 4 types of armor in D&D, and in order from least protective to most protective they are leather, chain, scale, and plate. Leather includes all armors made of fairly flexable animal hides, including the hide of reptiles with small scales. Chain includes all armors made of largely of interlocking rings (not including armors which use chain as the connecting material for joints). Scale includes all armors made of many small plates designed to move, either linked by chains or backed against leather. Plate includes all armors made largely of interlocking plates. To make things simple, armor would come in sets for chest, arms, and legs. Each would grant higher AC than the lowers; for simplicity we won't worry about noting if an attack hits a certain part of the body, since a foe will tend to direct their attacks toward the least defended portions of their opponent's body. In addition to each portion granting an AC bonus, each portion will also apply their armor check penalty to certain skills. Just starting off, ACs in my head seem to be higher than they would otherwise be. Here's the preliminary idea: Chest Leather: +2 AC Chain: +3 AC Scale: +4 AC Plate: +5 AC Arms and Legs Leather: +0 AC Chain: +1 AC Scale: +2 AC Plate: +3 AC This means that a full suit of plate would grant +12 AC, a full 4 points higher than the normal system. As for the ACPs, chest should apply it moderately to all the ACP applicable skills, while arms would grant higher penalties to skills using the arms, and vise versa for legs. I'll wait for a few replies before attempting to develop the system further.
weasel fierce 09-15-05, 01:14 AM	Makes a lot more sense, and have been done in a lot of other RPG's. You'd need to juggle the values a bit back and forth to get them, where you want them to be (wherever that is :) ), and unless you use encumbrance rules, it may loose a bit of the idea. Price can be a concern of course, with players skimping on say, leg armour, to go cheap. Without a hit location system, it does loose a bit of its impact, but I think its a fundamentally good idea
Aurotuli 09-15-05, 04:43 AM	The only problem I have with it is how to bring in location based AC adjusters without also bringing in called shots - which would be a whole new set of problems to figure out / deal with. And if you do not bring in called shots, then how do you justify increased protection on the arm affecting protection for the rest of the body?
Gilean 09-15-05, 12:15 PM	The only problem I have with it is how to bring in location based AC adjusters without also bringing in called shots - which would be a whole new set of problems to figure out / deal with. And if you do not bring in called shots, then how do you justify increased protection on the arm affecting protection for the rest of the body?Sword can be blocked by armoured limbs. Though it hurts.
Paul Hopebringer 09-15-05, 01:07 PM	Exactly! Keep it simple, and people will be more likly to go in this direction. Combat is abstract, and so it is only natural that -seeing as how defence is a part of combat- defence wouldn't need an *overly* realistic system backing it.
weasel fierce 09-15-05, 01:22 PM	yeah, using hit locations is not something D&D benefits from, I think, with its abstract (in some regards) combat rules.
Xeviat-DM 09-16-05, 05:47 AM	The only problem I have with it is how to bring in location based AC adjusters without also bringing in called shots - which would be a whole new set of problems to figure out / deal with. And if you do not bring in called shots, then how do you justify increased protection on the arm affecting protection for the rest of the body? Someone with chest plate, but no leg or arm armor, is going to invite more attacks toward their arms rather than their legs; thus having arm and leg armor would increase their general AC. I do want to use encumbrance, but deciding what constitutes light, medium, and heavy armor will be difficult. A full suit of plate is obviously heavy, and a full suit of chain is medium, but it seems that a chest of chain is light and a chest of plate is medium. Perhaps throwing out Scale is a possibility? Or, it could be considered "reinforced" chain, just like leather can be studded. Let's see: Chest Leather: +2 Chain: +3 Plate: +4 Arms and Legs Leather: +0 Chain: +1 Plate: +2 Some of the numbers are off. Keep the ideas coming. PS: I have an excelent called shot system in the works. The idea is that making a called shot would be a special attack action that provokes an attack of opportunity (can be negated by an improved called shot feat). Each target location would get an AC bonus based on how small it is (+4 per size smaller; arms and legs are one size smaller, head is two sizes smaller). If you successfully hit, you deal damage and provoke a fortitude save (DC equals 10 + 1/5 damage dealt). A failed save means the target takes a -2 penalty on rolls using that limb (list of rolls found in the DMG). I haven't implimented it in game yet, but it seems like it could work.
Gilean 09-16-05, 11:25 AM	Base encumbrance scores Leather: -2 Chain: -1 Plate: 0 Legs add 1, arms add 1. 0 equals light, 1 medium and 2 heavy. The numbers below 0 are treated as 0 or not an armour, whatever suits your needs. How about maximum dexterity and check penalty?
Thelon Fairblade 09-16-05, 04:42 PM	-4 penalty to hit, to cause the enemy -2 to hit for the rest of the battle. Hmm... Scary with called shots, though; With no armor on the arms, would you use the overall AC, or the unarmored arm AC? Forget the -2 penalty, I'll take the "I ignore your +2 breastplate (7 armor bonus)" effect!
Xeviat-DM 09-17-05, 01:19 AM	-4 to hit, and a fortitude save, and that provokes an attack of opportunity unless you take a feat (would require combat expertise). Also, the penalties aren't cumulative. If you can sunder a hydra's head, why can't you go for someone's arm? Unless everyone thinks that such attacks are the region of sneak attack feats like hamstring and arterial strike.
Xeviat-DM 09-17-05, 01:26 AM	Base encumbrance scores Leather: -2 Chain: -1 Plate: 0 Legs add 1, arms add 1. 0 equals light, 1 medium and 2 heavy. The numbers below 0 are treated as 0 or not an armour, whatever suits your needs. How about maximum dexterity and check penalty? I'm not sure how this would work. Are you saying that someone with a chest plate and nothing else would be considered light? It seems that, when only wearing the chest portion, the armor is one category lighter (breastplate and chainshirt are the examples in the rules). As for max dex, each chest piece would have a base max dex, and the limbs could reduce that. Just going off the PHB, I'd say this: Max Dex Leather: 6 Chain: 5 Plate: 4 Leather limbs would not affect it, chain limbs would reduce by 1, and plate limbs would reduce by 2. That's not really replicating the base game exactly ... but it's close. I would want to make sure that the limbs are reducing the wearer's max dex as much as they are adding AC; while chest AC would have to add up to 8 when added to it's bas max dex.
Xeviat-DM 09-17-05, 01:48 AM	Version 0.2 I think I've gotten enough feedback to toss out a full beta. Chest Make AC Dex ACP Leather +1 +7 -0 Chain +3 +5 -2 Plate +5 +3 -4 Limbs Make AC Dex ACP* Leather +1** -1** -0 Chain +1 -1 -1 Plate +2 -2 -2 *ACP is doubled for skills related to that limb **Leather armor only grants +1 AC if worn on both arms and legs. Now, I know it could possibly be made a little more complex. For instance, a Fencer might prefer to wear armor on only their sword arm, because that is the limb always facing the opponent, while a traditional swordsman may want to wear it only on their offhand because that is the limb that always faces the opponent. Perhaps the bonuses/penalties could be lessened by half if only worn on one arm, which means it would only be beneficial for plate under the beta rules. Let me know what you think.
Gilean 09-17-05, 03:59 AM	The chest table is good. For limbs, do you mean that leather offers only +1/2 armour and -1/2 maximum dexterity? That "doubled for skills using this limb" part is a bit obscure. Is the entire check penalty doubled or only the additional penalty caused by limb armour? Also, full plate (chest and arms and legs) has maximum dexterity of -1. A new take on encumbrance: Leather: 1 Chain: 1 Plate: 2 Leathery limb protections: +0 Chain limb protections: +1/2 Plate limb protections: +1 1 is light, 2 medium, 3 and higher heavy.
Xeviat-DM 09-17-05, 04:01 PM	Yeah, encumbrance (Light, Medium, Heavy) does need to be adressed. Full Plate is a special armor, we need to deal with Plate Armor first. Full Plate has a special property called "Fitted" attached to it; only the one it was made for can wear it, so it offers better manuverability. Studded Leather can be called "reinforced leather", hide can be called "heavy leather". Only the additional armor check penalty is doubled. Yes, leather arms only grant +1/2 AC and -1/2 Max Dex; you don't get any benefit from leather unless you have it on your arms and your legs. I also don't think that people should be encouraged to wear armor on their arms but not on their legs; the reason people don't wear armor on their arms is to maintain arm mobility, needed when fighting with your arms. For example, if someone wore chain arms and chain legs, they would suffer an additional -3 ACP, since the arms apply -2 to arm checks and -1 to others, while the legs apply -1 to arm checks and -2 to others. It only will really need to be calculated oddly if someone has miss matched armor. I'll take a stab at the encumbrance system. Leather: 0 Chain: 1 Plate: 2 1 and lower is light, 4 and higher is heavy (2 and 3 is medium). These numbers apply to chest, arms and legs. This means that someone could have chain chest and plate legs and no arms and be medium (granting +5 AC, +3 Max Dex, and -4 ACP with arms skills and -6 ACP with leg skills). Alternately, someone could have a full suit of chain (granting +5 AC, +3 Max Dex, and -5 ACP all around). Variables: Version 0.1 Beta Fitted: Fitted is a property that can be placed on a full suit of armor. Fitted armors are automatically masterwork quality, and the fitted armor "attachment" requires a Craft check DC of 20. Fitted adds 1000 gp to the cost of the armor, and increases the Max Dex bonus of the full suit by +1. A fitted armor can only be worn by the creature it was crafted for. Reinforced: Reinforced is a proprty that can be placed on a full suit of armor. This property increases the craft DC by 5, and reinforced armor can be made masterwork as usual. Reinforced armor increases the AC by 1, decreases the max dex by -1, and increases the armor check penalty by -1. Reinforced adds 10 gp to the cost of light armor, 50 gp to the cost of medium armor, and 100 gp to the cost of heavy armor. Heavy: Heavy is a property that can be placed on a full suit of light or medium armor. This property increases the AC granted by 2, decreases the max dex bonus by -1, increases the armor check penalty by -3, and makes an armor 1 category heavier (light becomes medium, medium becomes heavy). Heavy adds 20 gp to the cost of light armor and 100 gp to the cost of medium armor. The way you, Gilean, have your encumbrance table, someone could have full chain and be light armor, if you round down as usual. A full suit of chain should be medium, where chain shirt and leather limbs could be light. I think plate chest over chain limbs could be medium.
FriendoftheDork 09-17-05, 06:55 PM	hmm, i'm a bit sceptical here.... I like the consept. Chain shirts and chainmails REALLY are no different except where the armor is applied. And breatsplate should be a nice type of armor, even without greaves and leg protection. But these rules seem overly complicated. Let me try to make an example armor by your rules: A plate breastplate is exactly like before, +5 ac, +3 max dex and -4 ACPm except now it doesen't have greaves. A breastplate with leather greaves and legs grants +6 ac, +2 maxdex and -4 ACP. For a characer with 14 dex this armor is as good as half plate, even better as it is medium armor, +1 AC and less ACP. This system will probably encourage mix maxers to pour hours finding the optimal armor for their characters, and probably getting alot better ones than the ones in the PHB.
FlameLover 09-17-05, 07:17 PM	I would greatly simplify this. Here is my attempt: Chest Light: +1AC -1MaxDex 1ACP 5%ASF Medium: +2AC -2MaxDex 2ACP 10%ASF Heavy: 3AC -3MaxDex 3ACP 20%ASF Arms Light: +1AC -1MaxDex 1ACP 5%ASF Medium: +2AC -2MaxDex 2ACP 10%ASF Heavy: 3AC -3MaxDex 3ACP 20%ASF Legs Light: +1AC -1MaxDex 1ACP 5%ASF Medium: +2AC -2MaxDex 2ACP 10%ASF Heavy: 3AC -3MaxDex 3ACP 20%ASF And you start with a MaxDex of 9. This gives you slightly better armor than you get in the PHB but it is balanced I think by the increased MaxDex and ACP penalties. Anyway you could do called shots with this system but this is designed just so you can have more customizable armor. BTW when making armor magic you need to make a WHOLE SUIT magic and if it's split up atall the magic nolonger works. That way you stop any problems with having a little bit of this enhancment and a little bit of that one. So if you just want a tiny bit of protection you could just wear one light giving you 1AC, 8 MaxDex and a -1ACP or you could go fur 'full plate' and have 9AC, 0 MaxDex and a whopping 9ACP (Plus 60% ASF if you're a caster).
Xeviat-DM 09-18-05, 03:23 AM	I would greatly simplify this. Here is my attempt: And you start with a MaxDex of 9. This gives you slightly better armor than you get in the PHB but it is balanced I think by the increased MaxDex and ACP penalties. Anyway you could do called shots with this system but this is designed just so you can have more customizable armor. BTW when making armor magic you need to make a WHOLE SUIT magic and if it's split up atall the magic nolonger works. That way you stop any problems with having a little bit of this enhancment and a little bit of that one. So if you just want a tiny bit of protection you could just wear one light giving you 1AC, 8 MaxDex and a -1ACP or you could go fur 'full plate' and have 9AC, 0 MaxDex and a whopping 9ACP (Plus 60% ASF if you're a caster). True about the magic armors; that will have to be tended to. I like your simplicity, but I think chest armor should grant more AC than arm and leg armor, that's why I made my values the way I did. And to the other poster; I made it the way I did because I think the standard Armor choices are FUBAR. The fact that there is no optimal armor for Dex 14 and 15; any "min-maxer" knows that the optimal Dex's for the best AC are 12 (full plate), 16 (breast plate or mithril full plate), 18 (chain shirt), 20 (studded leather), 22 (leather or mithril chain shirt), and 26 (padded). Anything else gets you slightly lower AC; 14's and 15's are entirely boned, because they're stuck using full plate, loosing out on a potential +1 AC, or breast plate or chain mail, again loosing out on AC. Like Conjurer's weapon balance guidelines that many of us have revised and utilized, game balance is about presenting options that are balanced against one another, so no one character option is better than others.
Gilean 09-18-05, 03:26 AM	Only the additional armor check penalty is doubled. Yes, leather arms only grant +1/2 AC and -1/2 Max Dex; you don't get any benefit from leather unless you have it on your arms and your legs. I also don't think that people should be encouraged to wear armor on their arms but not on their legs; the reason people don't wear armor on their arms is to maintain arm mobility, needed when fighting with your arms.Actually, most deadly wounds in battle were done to legs. The armour used protected chest and arms but not legs, at least well enough. This applied to common soldiers, not nobles.For example, if someone wore chain arms and chain legs, they would suffer an additional -3 ACP, since the arms apply -2 to arm checks and -1 to others, while the legs apply -1 to arm checks and -2 to others. It only will really need to be calculated oddly if someone has miss matched armor.It offers too little to stay there, IMHO.Leather: 0 Chain: 1 Plate: 2 1 and lower is light, 4 and higher is heavy (2 and 3 is medium). These numbers apply to chest, arms and legs. This means that someone could have chain chest and plate legs and no arms and be medium (granting +5 AC, +3 Max Dex, and -4 ACP with arms skills and -6 ACP with leg skills). Alternately, someone could have a full suit of chain (granting +5 AC, +3 Max Dex, and -5 ACP all around).Good.Variables: Version 0.1 BetaNonmagical enhancements are alway a good thing.The way you, Gilean, have your encumbrance table, someone could have full chain and be light armor, if you round down as usual. A full suit of chain should be medium, where chain shirt and leather limbs could be light. I think plate chest over chain limbs could be medium.The encumbrance armours actually have is exaggerated. People could, and can, do somersaults in full plate. But whatever. Oh, arcane spell failures should be added.
FlameLover 09-18-05, 08:13 AM	Ok here is my system revised. I am sticking with the whole "chest being same as legs and arms" because it keeps it simple and this is D&D afterall, balance trumps logic. Anyway here it is: Type AC MaxDex ACP ASF Weight Cloth +0 -0 +0 0% 0lb. Light +1 -1 +1 5% 5lb. Medium +2 -2 +2 10% 10lb. Heavy +3 -3 +3 15% 15lb. And there are 3 different pieces or slots, chest, legs and arms. You choose a type for each and add everything together. Note that you start with a base MaxDex of 9. Below is each of the armors from the PHB translated through this system. They are abit different from the originals but close enough I think. Padded: A light plus 2 cloths. 1AC, 8MaxDex, 1ACP, 5%ASF, 5lb. Leather: 2 light plus 1 cloth OR 1 medium plus 2 cloth. 2AC, 7MaxDex, 2ACP, 10%ASF, 10lb. Studded Leather: 3 lights or 1medium 1light and 1cloth. 3AC, 6MaxDex, 3ACP, 15%ASF, 15lb. Chain Shirt: 1medium plus 2light. 4AC, 5MaxDex, 4ACP, 20%ASF, 20lb. Hide: 2medium plus 1cloth. 4AC, 5MaxDex, 4ACP, 20%ASF, 20lb. Scale Mail: 2medium plus 1light. 5AC, 4MaxDex, 5ACP, 25%ASF, 25lb. Chainmail: 3medium. 6AC, 3MaxDex, 6ACP, 30%ASF, 30lb. Breastplate: 2medium plus 1heavy. 7AC, 2MaxDex, 7ACP, 35%ASF, 35lb. Splintmail: 2heavy plus 1medium. 8AC, 1MaxDex, 8ACP, 40%ASF, 40lb. Half-plate: 3heavy. 9AC, 0MaxDex, 9ACP, 45%ASF, 45lb. Certainly not perfect but if I moved Chain Shirt and Breastplate up a category it'd start getting better. And for rules of whether the resulting armor is light, medium or heavy just use the average. Like light, medium & heavy would make medium armor while cloth, medium and heavy would make medium (since you should round up). So yeah with abit of tweaking this system should be good... anyone willing to help?
Gilean 09-18-05, 09:30 AM	So yeah with abit of tweaking this system should be good... anyone willing to help?So, protecting the chest is equally important to protecting the legs? Hardly.
FlameLover 09-18-05, 06:11 PM	I realize that the chest is alot more important than the legs or arms but in actual mechanics what would you do to show that? They already add up to 9AC in full-heavy so it's not like they arn't getting better AC anyway. But i'm planning on changing it so that whatever the highest level peice you put on makes that the overall armors class. So weary heavy/cloth/cloth will count as heavy armor. You could certainly make a case for it being light but if you wanted light armor you should have worn light/light/light. And i also plan on splitting the arms and legs into left and right, therefor allowing you to have 5 seperate parts you put armor. When you put it on only one arm or leg though everything is halved. Once added all together it's then rounded down. So all you need now is a called shots system that could work with this and you're golden! Oh and i was thinking about the magic and i was wondering whether something like an arrow/bow relationship would be in order? Each of the 3 pieces is enchanted seperatley but you just use the highest enhancment bonus for AC, ACP, etc. and the effects of the different armors stack. It would make armor more powerful so i'm not sure if this is going too far. Oh and with this system clothing is armor so it can be enhanced like armor, although it does suffer a x2 on cost.
Soel Griffin 09-18-05, 06:15 PM	The Dark Legacies Player's Guide has piecemail armor rules in it. They do not call for location specific hits, and are more for flavor.There are two versions for each type of armor. Using Craft, you can scavenge and break down a suit of armor for 1/4 value of ac, depending on armor size vs your size ( halved for smaller, doubld for larger.) This system works best for war-based campaigns, or for those folks who want that scavenged look for their character, or for those settings where finding an armorer to buy stuff from is not so easy.
FlameLover 09-18-05, 06:22 PM	Thanks for reminding me Soel Griffin, i need to deal with masterwork and different materials. Well for masterwork the best optionm is to say that all 3 pieces you use must be mwk and if any one of them isn't you are treated as if all were just normal. But materials will need tweaking. Like Mithral would be changed so it effectivley treats the armor peice it's applied to as one category lighter while adamantite would increase hp and hardness and give only 1/3 the DR or whatever. But what would called shots do anyway? Give the enemy speed penalties, penalties to attack and damage, etc.?
Lina_Inverse 09-18-05, 09:34 PM	Magic armor can be done one of two ways. only the highest applys.(worst) you can only enchant the breastplate(best) still seems overly complex thou :D i much prefer heroic armor where if you mark it off i dont care how you claim it looks(ie just your arms are covered in full plate? cool fine).
FlameLover 09-19-05, 07:07 AM	For most campaigns just saying what it looks like while using some standard armor is fine but if you want a low-magic campaign or just one more martially-oriented then this works well i think. Since each peice of armor has to be sundered seperatley it means that weakening an enemies defences is quite tough and making the armors stack like the arrow/bow does is a little too powerful, agreed. Just make it the breastplate for now. Ok, is there anything i'm missing about this system? If there isn't anything else that is completley broken or stupid about it then i'll write it up and put it in my ideas/article folder.
Gilean 09-19-05, 11:00 AM	But i'm planning on changing it so that whatever the highest level peice you put on makes that the overall armors class. So weary heavy/cloth/cloth will count as heavy armor. You could certainly make a case for it being light but if you wanted light armor you should have worn light/light/light.Xeviat, this isn't a bad idea, especially if check penalty/max dex are counter separately.
FlameLover 09-19-05, 07:23 PM	Just to show how that would actually effect things: Armor Type Cloth Light Medium Heavy AC MaxDex ACP ASF Weight Padded 2 1 - - 1 8 1 5% 5lb. Leather 1 2 - - 2 7 2 10% 10lb. Studded Leather - 3 - - 3 6 3 15% 15lb. Scalemail - 2 1 - 4 5 4 20% 20lb. Chainmail - 1 2 - 5 4 5 25% 25lb. Breastplate - - 3 - 6 3 6 30% 30lb. Bandedmail - - 2 1 7 2 7 35% 35lb. Half-plate - - 1 2 8 1 8 40% 40lb. Fullplate - - - 3 9 0 9 45% 45lb. And you could do other armors but those are the most efficient (meaning you can't min/max beyond that point). But it would allow a charcter to mix and match abit plus it is just begging for a system of multi-armor-part-sundering.
Xeviat-DM 09-23-05, 04:19 AM	Thanks for all the input everyone. One thing I was wanting to do with this was actually affect the non-AC applications of armor, not just AC. For instance, someone without armor on their arms would have an easier time with arm-related skills (like open lock) than someone with armor on their arms. Perhaps my initial method of doing this wasn't well thought out enough, so I'm taking suggestions. As for Flamelover's ideas: I love the simplicity, but I can't see how someone with only arm and leg armor is better protected than someone with only chest armor (if all armor were the same type). Honestly, the chest houses all of the non-brain vital organs, and thusly is the most important part to protect. Thus, it should grant higher AC values than the arms or legs; while it may be easier to attack someone's arms since they're the part of the opponent's body that are coming at you, it's easier to kill someone with a chest or stomach wound than an arm wound. And as for armor enhancements, I'd say that either the whole suit needs to be enhanced, or just the breastplate. I do think the leather = light, chain = medium, plate = heavy is a good aproach, but I'd like to allow for chest only's to be considered one lighter (so chain shirt and breast plate are possible). They'd still influence max Dex and Armor check penalties the same, but they aren't as restrictive on movement as a full suit would be.
FlameLover 09-23-05, 07:32 AM	The problem with making the legs and arms count as lesser AC though is then you'd need to make it say 1/2, 1 and 1 1/2 AC for each and you'd need to bump the chest up to 2, 4 and 6 then. You'd get the same ACs for max armor but it then stops people from being more creative and having say light arms and legs for dexterity but medium for chest for protection. But for working out other effects make it only your leg armor effects your speed plus the ACP would affect tumble, jump, etc. while arm armour would affect Sleight of Hand, Forgery, etc. Chest wouldn't affect anything (which makes it better than the others in itself) I know D&D should be atleast semi-realistic but it would add more complications and problems than it solves. Sure protecting your chest is more important, but in D&D's abstract combat that doesn't really matter. But i think you should continue down that path since alot of people like more realistic systems: I just don't. But i'm working out the kinks for this and once it's down i'll post it in Regdar's maybe.
Xeviat-DM 09-24-05, 01:05 AM	I don't think that only legs should affect speed; but maybe legs should add more to your "speed encumbrance" than the other armor parts. As for chest adding more, why can't the values be as follows: 1, 3, and 5 for chest, and 1/2, 1, and 2 for arms and legs? The "test" armors that I think need to be able to be made well are leather (full), chain shirt (leather arms/legs), chain (full), breast plate (chain arms/legs), and plate (full). The way I'm aiming, full leather is 2 AC, chain shirt is 4 AC, Chain is 5 AC, Breastplate is 7 AC, and Plate is 9 AC. Your values are okay in my opinion when made for full suits, but I don't think armor pieces should be meaninglessly assigned to the body; that's loosing the point of a piece by piece system.