Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 03-26-07, 12:26 AM	I originally posted this on the Deities and the Planes boards (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=806649) and the Classes and Prestige Classes board (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=806400), but there was no response, so I thought I'd see what the UA and House Rules board thought of it. Since the cleric role is essential to parties, but many people don't really find any of the established gods or religions appealing, and many people are wary of allowing godless clerics to just pick any two domains they want for fear of powergaming, clearer rules for clerics who don't follow established religions would be helpful in some circumstances. The objective of this post is to give some rules and fluff to such clerics. Any thoughts on this? I think that these rules would allow clerics who don't fit into any established religion while still avoiding possible abuses involved in "just pick any two domains" clerics. Background Planar Mediumship is a field of magic that involves channeling and interacting with the planes, inner and outer. As a result, planar mediums are very effective when it comes to dealing with alignment, planar travel, summoning, and channeling planar power. In terms of the magic they wield, a planar medium is identical to a cleric. However, their magic is not based on faith, but on practice, experience, and academic study, much like the magic of a wizard. In general, a planar medium is, as far as the rules are concerned, a cleric, with planar mediumship as their "religion" as far as the rules are concerned. However, in background, a planar medium is more likely to have learned at a magical academy than a temple, and planar mediumship is generally regarded as a discipline rather than a faith. A planar medium is not necessarily irreligious, any more than a rogue or fighter is. However, also like a rogue or fighter, their abilities are not dependent on their faith. A planar medium who focuses his magical capacity on the Plane of Fire -- as represented by taking the fire domain -- may have some commitment to fire as a purifying, energetic source, or he may simply find that channeling the power of the plane of fire is useful and not have any particular philosophical attachment to the plane. The traditional divine focus of a planar medium is two concentric rings, with the outer ring symbolizing the outer planes and the inner ring symbolizing the inner planes. However, not all planar mediums have the same focus, and some might have a different focus. Rules: Domains -A planar medium selects domains from the folllowing list: air, chaos, death, earth, evil, fire, good, healing, law, and water. Each domain corresponds to an inner or outer plane (healing corresponds to the positive energy plane, and death to the negative energy plane). -A planar medium with an alignment domain must have that alignment. -A planar medium may not have two "opposing" domains, such as air and earth, death and healing, or fire and water. -If a planar medium shifts alignments and has an alignment domain for which he is no longer eligible, he loses that domain immediately and gains a new domain after one month, having learned to wield the magic of a new plane. The domain is selected at the beginning of the month. -A planar medium may also change domains in this fashion voluntarily, giving up a domain for a month before acquiring a new one. The selection of the new domain(s) must be made at the begining of the month of lost domain access. Turning, Rebuking, and Spontaneous Spellcasting -Ordinarily, a good planar medium spontaneously cures wounds and turns undead, an evil planar medium spontaneously inflicts wounds and rebukes undead, and neutral planar mediums chooses. -However, an evil planar medium with the healing domain has a sufficiently strong connection to the positive energy plane that he can choose to spontaneously cure wounds and turn undead instead of spontaneously inflicting wounds and rebuking undead, and a good planar medium with the death domain has a sufficiently strong connection to the negative energy plane that she can choose to spontaneously inflict wounds and rebuke undead instead of curing wounds and turning undead. -A neutral planar medium with the healing domain must cure and turn, and a neutral planar medium with the death domain must inflict and rebuke. -A planar medium who wishes to change whether he cures/turns or inflicts/rebukes, or one who has lost the ability to do so due to an alignment shift, may switch to the new type of energy channeled after one month of neither being able to spontaneously cure nor inflict nor being able to turn or rebuke undead. Alignment -A planar medium may be of any alignment -A planar medium may cast spells with any alignment descriptor, although, depending on the game, these actions may "drag" the planar medium toward the alignment of the descriptor (at the DM's discretion). Planar Knowledge Dependency -- NOTE: I still rather like this idea, and would probably use it as a house rule, but most people seem not to, so it's redacted. -Because their magic is dependent on intimate knowledge of the planes, to cast spells of a given level, a planar medium must have knowledge (the planes) equal to 2 + (2 x spell level). For example, to cast first level spells, a planar medium must have 4 ranks in knowledge (the planes), while to cast 6th level spells the planar medium must have 14 ranks in knowledge (the planes). Transitions between Planar Mediums and Conventional Clerics -A planar medium could switch to being a normal cleric of a deity, religion, concept, or ideal, and vice versa (although most typical clerics are likely to find that their planar knowledge isn't sufficient to channel the planes very effectively). Switching from being a planar medium to being a more traditional cleric would require being of true faith, being accepted by the deity, etc: the usual requirements for switching deities. Switching from being a traditional cleric to being a planar medium would mean going a month without domains, turning, rebuking, or spontaneous cure/inflict spellcasting, but still being able to cast normal cleric spells -- so long as knowledge (the planes) is sufficient, then acquiring turning or rebuking, spontaneous spellcasting, and domains at the end of a month. The selection of domains and spontaneous curing/turning undead or spontaneous inflicting/rebuking undead is made at the beginning of the month during which the cleric-turned-planar-medium masters magic.
bartleby42 03-26-07, 01:10 AM	I like everything except for Planar Knowledge Dependency. I was hoping that it would be a swap of knowlege (planes) from knowledge (religion) for turn bonuses. As it is it is another mechanic that goded(?) clerics do not have and is really needless. Other than that I think this is the best system for haveing godless clerics I have ever seen.
JulesCARV 03-29-07, 02:16 PM	Hmm... a fair point. I suppose that I like the flavor, and I have a feeling that someone who's been a cleric of Fharlanghn, but for some reason abandons the faith and decides to be a planar medium shouldn't immediately be able to cast spells based on raw planar magic -- they should have to learn stuff that wasn't really necessary when they were clerics, since they don't have any divine help. However, I suppose that it could be removed. It just seems odd to me to have a cleric who stops receiving spells from his god, and then shrugs and says "okay. No biggie. I'll just use magic straight from the planes" -- being able to channel planar magic without divine aid should be a bigger deal than that. However, getting rid of the mechanic is okay I suppose.
JulesCARV 04-02-07, 05:05 PM	I'm thinking of maybe just getting rid of the restriction that domains can't be "opposed" too -- I guess a planar medium with the domains of air and earth or fire and water would probably be okay. I'm still inclined to keep the restriction that you have to be of an alignment to get an alignment domain.
bartleby42 04-02-07, 05:26 PM	Couple of things, I understand the want for a more formalized system of requirements for changing from a goded cleric to a planar medium, but even when a cleric changes dieties it comes down to DM discretion as to wheter or not there is a penalty of any sort. As to the domain restrictions I feel that the best way to handle it would be to come up with a few philosophies that will place restrictions as to what domains you may or may not take, depending on your outlook. Sadly this is very complex, and could be worthless if your word it vaugly in hopes to make it easier to understand. I will debate this and hopefully get a solution to you soon.
JulesCARV 04-02-07, 05:34 PM	To clarify -- a planar medium is not a "philosophy-worshipping" cleric. Their powers do not depend on their philosophy or ideals. Some -- the alignment domains -- are restricted by alignment, but a planar medium who has a good alignment, but isn't really a philosophical "believer" in good, but rather just a decent, compassionate, helpful person, can take the good domain just as easily as a planar medium who's more of a "righteous warrior of goodness" type. Incidentally, that's the main reason I put the planar knowledge dependency in -- because a planar medium's power isn't based on either a deity's granting it to them or on faith: it's just based on the planar medium's knowledge, ability, experience, and practice as a mage, much like a wizard.
JulesCARV 09-11-07, 08:09 PM	Note: I'm thinking that, in addition to the alignment (chaos/Limbo, evil/Gray Waste, good/Elysium, law/Mechanus), elemental (air, earth, fire, water), and energy (healing/positive, death/negative) domains, planar mediums might also get domain access based on the transitive planes -- the astral, ethereal, and shadow. I'm not really sure what domains would be good, though, other than the shadow domain being available to planar mediums who associate themselves with the Plane of Shadow. The ethereal and astral have me kind of stumped.
Tequila_Sunrise 09-12-07, 06:45 PM	I originally posted this on the Deities and the Planes boards (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=806649) and the Classes and Prestige Classes board (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=806400), but there was no response, so I thought I'd see what the UA and House Rules board thought of it. God forbid that they should be asked to think about an idea that a) is not canonical or b) is less than 90% crunch! Planar Mediumship is a field of magic that involves channeling and interacting with the planes, inner and outer. As a result, planar mediums are very effective when it comes to dealing with alignment, planar travel, summoning, and channeling planar power. In terms of the magic they wield, a planar medium is identical to a cleric. However, their magic is not based on faith, but on practice, experience, and academic study, much like the magic of a wizard. In general, a planar medium is, as far as the rules are concerned, a cleric, with planar mediumship as their "religion" as far as the rules are concerned. However, in background, a planar medium is more likely to have learned at a magical academy than a temple, and planar mediumship is generally regarded as a discipline rather than a faith. A planar medium is not necessarily irreligious, any more than a rogue or fighter is. However, also like a rogue or fighter, their abilities are not dependent on their faith. A planar medium who focuses his magical capacity on the Plane of Fire -- as represented by taking the fire domain -- may have some commitment to fire as a purifying, energetic source, or he may simply find that channeling the power of the plane of fire is useful and not have any particular philosophical attachment to the plane. The traditional divine focus of a planar medium is two concentric rings, with the outer ring symbolizing the outer planes and the inner ring symbolizing the inner planes. However, not all planar mediums have the same focus, and some might have a different focus. This is a great idea! An infinately better option than 'just invent a philosophy and pick two domains'. Although you may get players who have a hard time grasping the idea of a "faithless cleric", especially if they choose an alignment domain. I myself have a hard time imagining a character who studies and draws power from the upper planes, but who is really just 'a nice guy'. I think I would need to play such a character with a strong Good-motivated philosophy or it just wouldn't make sense to me. Domains -A planar medium selects domains from the folllowing list: air, chaos, death, earth, evil, fire, good, healing, law, and water. Each domain corresponds to an inner or outer plane (healing corresponds to the positive energy plane, and death to the negative energy plane). -A planar medium with an alignment domain must have that alignment. -A planar medium may not have two "opposing" domains, such as air and earth, death and healing, or fire and water. -If a planar medium shifts alignments and has an alignment domain for which he is no longer eligible, he loses that domain immediately and gains a new domain after one month, having learned to wield the magic of a new plane. The domain is selected at the beginning of the month. -A planar medium may also change domains in this fashion voluntarily, giving up a domain for a month before acquiring a new one. The selection of the new domain(s) must be made at the begining of the month of lost domain access. Turning, Rebuking, and Spontaneous Spellcasting -Ordinarily, a good planar medium spontaneously cures wounds and turns undead, an evil planar medium spontaneously inflicts wounds and rebukes undead, and neutral planar mediums chooses. -However, an evil planar medium with the healing domain has a sufficiently strong connection to the positive energy plane that he can choose to spontaneously cure wounds and turn undead instead of spontaneously inflicting wounds and rebuking undead, and a good planar medium with the death domain has a sufficiently strong connection to the negative energy plane that she can choose to spontaneously inflict wounds and rebuke undead instead of curing wounds and turning undead. -A neutral planar medium with the healing domain must cure and turn, and a neutral planar medium with the death domain must inflict and rebuke. -A planar medium who wishes to change whether he cures/turns or inflicts/rebukes, or one who has lost the ability to do so due to an alignment shift, may switch to the new type of energy channeled after one month of neither being able to spontaneously cure nor inflict nor being able to turn or rebuke undead. Alignment -A planar medium may be of any alignment -A planar medium may cast spells with any alignment descriptor, although, depending on the game, these actions may "drag" the planar medium toward the alignment of the descriptor (at the DM's discretion). Planar Knowledge Dependency -Because their magic is dependent on intimate knowledge of the planes, to cast spells of a given level, a planar medium must have knowledge (the planes) equal to 2 + (2 x spell level). For example, to cast first level spells, a planar medium must have 4 ranks in knowledge (the planes), while to cast 6th level spells the planar medium must have 14 ranks in knowledge (the planes). Transitions between Planar Mediums and Conventional Clerics -A planar medium could switch to being a normal cleric of a deity, religion, concept, or ideal, and vice versa (although most typical clerics are likely to find that their planar knowledge isn't sufficient to channel the planes very effectively). Switching from being a planar medium to being a more traditional cleric would require being of true faith, being accepted by the deity, etc: the usual requirements for switching deities. Switching from being a traditional cleric to being a planar medium would mean going a month without domains, turning, rebuking, or spontaneous cure/inflict spellcasting, but still being able to cast normal cleric spells -- so long as knowledge (the planes) is sufficient, then acquiring turning or rebuking, spontaneous spellcasting, and domains at the end of a month. The selection of domains and spontaneous curing/turning undead or spontaneous inflicting/rebuking undead is made at the beginning of the month during which the cleric-turned-planar-medium masters magic. I actually like the idea that a planar medium cannot have both the fire and water domains, or both earth and air, or healing and death. I can't back up this opinion, except that these elements are traditional opposites. A DM is free to 'house rule' this house rule either way, so whatever. I too do not like the planar knowledge dependancy. If a traditional cleric converts to planar mediumship, it's up to the DM to make the player earn their new faith if he/she so chooses. I really don't know what to say about Astral, Ethereal and Shadow domains. They don't exist in any published book to my knowledge, so you'll probably have to invent your own if you really want them. It'll be a challenge, to be sure. Personally, I don't think that they're necessary anyway. TS
JulesCARV 09-16-07, 07:48 PM	Hmm... okay. I guess I'll drop the knowledge (the planes) thing to my own houserule. I suppose that if you got rid of the alignment domains, then you could still have air, death, earth, fire, healing, and water. Six domains is a pretty good selection, although being unable to channel the outer planes makes them "inner planar mediums" only.
JulesCARV 09-17-07, 01:18 AM	Hmm... in Eberron, it seems like the idea of clerics of the Dragon Above as generic "none of the above" clerics is already too well established for Planar Mediumship to be sensible, but for what it's worth, if one uses Eberron cosmology... Daanvi -- Law Dal Quor -- Cannot be channelled (Sealed) Dolurrh -- Death? Fernia -- Fire Irian -- Healing Kythri -- Chaos Lamannia -- Animal Mabar -- Destruction? Risia -- ?? Shavarath -- War (martial weapons only) Syrania -- Air or Good? Thelanis -- Magic Xoriat -- Madness
Tequila_Sunrise 09-17-07, 02:14 PM	I suppose that if you got rid of the alignment domains... Why do you want to get rid of the alignment domains? I hope you didn't take my post as a suggestion to do that.
JulesCARV 10-07-07, 11:53 PM	Well, I only saw three routes: 1) Keep the alignment domains as is, which you regarded as tough to swallow (i.e., the "nice guy" good cleric with the good domain who isn't a philosophical devotee of goodness) 2) Get rid of the alignment domains. 3) Allow the alignment domains, but only if someone has a deeper, philosophical/theological faith in the alignment of the domain they've taken. I don't like #3 at all, because I really don't want planar mediums to draw their power from their beliefs like a "philosophy cleric." #1 is fine by me, but as you mentioned, might be tough to swallow for many. #2 is also okay for me, so I thought it seemed like a possible compromise. If there's an option I'm missing, though, it's possible that I'm just being oblivious.
Tequila_Sunrise 10-08-07, 02:17 PM	Well you could leave the alignment domains and if you have a player that has trouble with the "aligned domain =/= aligned philosophy" like me, their character as an individual can have an aligned philosophy and have an aligned domain even if the two are not interwoven by virtue of the class. And btw, after not thinking about this thread for a while, I find I can swallow the idea of the "nice guy with the good domain" more easily now. Maybe it just needed time to sink in.
ChaoticGood 11-02-07, 12:48 AM	Some suggestions for the Eberron version... And I disagree, this idea actually makes a lot of sense in Khorvaire, particularly in Sharn, where worship of the Sovereign Host is often seen as a custom more than a faith. Planar magic is very much in evidence there, though, and "realists" would probably adhere more to this "provable" use of divine magic than to the "outdated superstitions "of their ancestors. The edits I would make to your list: Dal Quor -- Dream (Xoriat is the sealed plane, not Dal Quor) Mabar -- Darkness Risia -- Cold Syrania -- Air Xoriat -- Madness (can not currently be channeled)
JulesCARV 02-23-08, 03:09 PM	On the astral, ethereal, and shadow issue, I'm thinking that both astral and ethereal will be represented by the Travel domain, since they're primarily used for that purpose. The shadow plane could be represented by the Shadow domain. I guess I was just having trouble getting over having two planes (astral and ethereal) represented by the same domain, but I suppose in the Great Wheel, Acheron and Arcadia will both be represented by Law, so it's no big deal.
Xavon 02-23-08, 03:53 PM	As fluff for a cleric, this is interesting, but alignment then strikes me as off. If the concept is this person learned their divine magic through study (rather than attachment to a higher power), why should alignment matter. In fact I would say it is interesting (and potentially even fitting) that the planar medium uses an opposing alignment and its constituant plane(s). I would really like to so this as a fully fleshed out prestige class.
JulesCARV 03-01-08, 05:18 PM	As fluff for a cleric, this is interesting, but alignment then strikes me as off. If the concept is this person learned their divine magic through study (rather than attachment to a higher power), why should alignment matter. In fact I would say it is interesting (and potentially even fitting) that the planar medium uses an opposing alignment and its constituant plane(s). Fair enough. Struck out! I would really like to so this as a fully fleshed out prestige class. A prestige class for planar medium is a possibility, but I want this option to be available from level 1 too. I guess my point is, if it's like the radiant servant of Pelor, where clerics can be clerics of Pelor from levels 1-6, and radiant servants of Pelor from levels 7-16, then that's all fine. (The analogy being being ordinary cleric planar mediums until they get into a planar mediumship-specific prestige class) If it's more like an ur-priest, divine crusader, or the like, where planar mediumship is only really pursuable at higher levels, and the prestige class would be a replacement for the rules I came up with for running ordinary clerics as planar mediums, then I'm opposed :).
ORC_Nashira 06-17-08, 07:36 AM	Moved at VCL request.