Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nonsi 01-15-06, 05:40 AM	I'm trying to create a more realistic action distribution in combat that would still be reasonably playable. this is what I came up with so far Since each combat round is said to take 6 seconds . . . 1. Move actions take 2 seconds. Movement based AoO's are only provoked by running (50% speed increase). This updates most medium humanoids' land speed from 30' to 25' (50 yards in 60 seconds is realistic for someone who doesn't spend all his free time running). Notice that Fast Movement doesn't stack with running. It just means that you know how to move close to your max speed without provoking AoO's. 2. Standard actions take 4 seconds. 3. Full round actions take 5 seconds, leaving just enough for 5' step, free actions and assessing the situation. 4. If someone does nothing but moving, the momentum is enough to allow 4 move actions, but then 5' step cannot be taken. When an action fragment (whichever of the above) is taken, play the scenario to the fullest before moving on to the next scene participant. Initiative is rolled on encounter using d6+4 (initiative placement in which lower numbers act first), with DEX-mod influencing initiative (this, off course, kills Improved Initiative feat). the result can never go below 2 (at least 1 second for quick observation & decision making). From this point and on, everything happens in a cycle – everyone acts on his/her turn. "Hold" action is canceled and "Wait" allows one to make 1/2-sec delay intervals (which repositions him in the initiative cycle) and "break in" whenever desired. Identical initiatives operate together, meaning 2 combatants can literally beat each other to death (anyone saw "the last samurai"?) – the dice results determine what just happened.
Lina_Inverse 01-16-06, 09:13 PM	Keep It Simple STUPID Further, what the heck does this PEACH thing mean.
Millennium 01-19-06, 09:58 AM	Further, what the heck does this PEACH thing mean. As I understand it, PEACH is an acronym for "Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly". It originated from a group of people who believed that not enough people were willing to give negative feedback on articles. The main reason for this, they decided, was that many people, even those who ask for feedback, become offended at any criticism of their work even if that criticism is constructive. Because of this, there's a stereotype going around that most people who ask for criticism don't really mean it; what they really want is an ego boost. The PEACH acronym is supposed to be an assurance that yes, you really do want people to give you sincere evaluations of your work, even if those evaluations turn out to be negative.
nonsi 01-19-06, 10:30 AM	and with that notion, I'd like to present my refined rules, maybe now someone would find them interesting and playable enough tho shed his/her opinion (maybe even present minor modifications options) . . . so here it is: Playable realism: Since each combat round is said to take 6 seconds . . . 1. Move actions take 2 seconds. Movement based AoO's are only provoked by running (up to double speed), unless you move in a flanked square (then determine randomly who gets the AoO), meaning combat goes a lot faster (no more "did you move inside / out of a threatened area). This updates most medium humanoids' land (encounter) speed from 30' to 25' (50 yards in 6 seconds is realistic for someone who doesn't spend all his free time running). Notice that Fast Movement doesn't stack with running. It just means that you know how to move faster without provoking AoO's. it is possible to forfeit move actions for 5’ steps. To go up to movement 30’, take Dash feat (IMO this should be limited to 1ce only). 2. Standard actions take 4 seconds. 3. Full round actions take 6 seconds, with just enough for 5' step, free actions and assessing the situation. Initiative is rolled on encounter using d6+6 (initiative placement in which lower numbers act first), with PER-mod influencing initiative (this, off course, kills Improved Initiative feat and makes Spring Attack meaningless), meaning it would take legendary DEX (or perception, for those who adopt 8-stat gaming) to make instant reaction possible. From this point and on, everything happens in a cycle – everyone acts on his/her turn. If you choose "Hold" or "Wait", you can "break in" and complete your action at a later stage, repositioning yourself in the initiative cycle. Identical initiatives operate together, meaning 2 combatants can literally beat each other to death (anyone saw "the last samurai"?) and the dice results determine what just happened (disregarding the order of attacks on both sides). and what can be gained by adopting this system ? well, sometimes the situation doesn't let you do much that would be helpful. so instead of wasting your round action, you could take just that partial action and save the rest for a more appropriate opportunity. for instance, let's say you're confronting a really dangerous wizard who is but a move action away. now you can move to him and wait for him to provoke an AoO. even if he moves, doing something really useful to him would still require a standard action - enough for you to get close, utilize your AoO and add yet another attack (thus preventing the spellcasting, since it takes a standard action to complete). more usability, a faster combat and a better & more reasonable flow of events (no more obsolete video games approach).
Millennium 01-19-06, 10:54 AM	Movement based AoO's are only provoked by running (up to double speed), unless you move in a flanked square (then determine randomly who gets the AoO), meaning combat goes a lot faster (no more "did you move inside / out of a threatened area). Um... you only provoke AoOs when you move out of threatened areas, not into them. This updates most medium humanoids' land (encounter) speed from 30' to 25' (50 yards in 6 seconds is realistic for someone who doesn't spend all his free time running). 50 yards is 150 feet, or 30 squares. Under the current system, an unencumbered human can do up to 24 squares in one round at a dead sprint. Is this really the effect you want to have? well, sometimes the situation doesn't let you do much that would be helpful. so instead of wasting your round action, you could take just that partial action and save the rest for a more appropriate opportunity. In the current system you can do that by readying an action or using Delay to wait for a more appropriate time. for instance, let's say you're confronting a really dangerous wizard who is but a move action away. now you can move to him and wait for him to provoke an AoO. You could do that in the current system, but why would you want to, when you could get close as your move action, take a swing as your standard action, and then wait for AoOs? You can only make one AoO per round unless you have Combat Reflexes, but regular attacks don't count against the number of AoOs you can make. even if he moves, doing something really useful to him would still require a standard action - enough for you to get close, utilize your AoO and add yet another attack (thus preventing the spellcasting, since it takes a standard action to complete). You could achieve this in the current system as well: move close and ready an action to attack if the wizard starts casting a spell or moving. more usability, a faster combat and a better & more reasonable flow of events (no more obsolete video games approach). I'm not sure I see how the approach is more usable: everything you mention can be done under the current system with no modifications. I also don't see how it speeds combat up much. As for the "more reasonable flow of combat", it certainly does remove the abstraction of rounds, but this does not necessarily make it "better" or "worse": it only makes it more concrete. That may be what you're looking for, but it's not for everyone.
nonsi 01-19-06, 12:53 PM	I decided to spare myself the Quoting, so we'll do this the "outlook" fashion > Um... you only provoke AoOs when you move out of threatened > areas, not into them. or inside threatened area, as I said. now you only provoke if moving fast inside a threatened ares, and never when entering or exiting. > 50 yards is 150 feet, or 30 squares. Under the current system, an > unencumbered human can do up to 24 squares in one round at a dead > sprint. Is this really the effect you want to have? 50 yards was for running (double speed). don't tell me you don't cover 50 yards in 6-sec running. > In the current system you can do that by readying an action or using Delay > to wait for a more appropriate time. I didn't notice anything regarding moving and then waiting for an appropriate time. with my aproach, you can attack & move, or move & attack (but maybe I missed something - if I did, please direct me to the relevant text (a quote would be effective)). > You could do that in the current system, but why would you want to, when > you could get close as your move action, take a swing as your standard > action, and then wait for AoOs? You can only make one AoO per round > unless you have Combat Reflexes, but regular attacks don't count against > the number of AoOs you can make. as I understand, one only provokes an AoO if and when adjecent to you, but then again, this might be relevant to the previous answer. > I'm not sure I see how the approach is more usable: everything you > mention can be done under the current system with no modifications. I also > don't see how it speeds combat up much. 1. in the 3.5e system you can't trade move actions for 5' steps. 2. 4 movements result in just 120' (that's not so much more than 1/2 my top running speed). with my approach there're no more 4 movement streaches for a full round action - and there's no need to. 50 yards are reasonable even if you didn't build up momentum and 60 yards (with Dash) are still less that 60 meters, so there's no going for olympic record there. 3. less AoO's situations mean fewer undecisive delays (and resorting to a stop watch just spoil's the fun) > As for the "more reasonable flow of combat" it allows you to go for a caster who is casting a spell 1-move distance away and still nail him (or just make the AoO if he's 2-move distance away and not casting on the defensive).
sdragon1984 01-19-06, 04:35 PM	i pretty much had my answer when i read the title of this thread, but i figured id read it just in case my answer would change........... it didnt. this game is dungeons and DRAGONS. it has elves . if youre trying for realism, try modern. then tweak the rules. but then again, this is for your campaign, so its for your game. not mine. if this is what you want the play rules to be, who are we to stop you?
nonsi 01-19-06, 05:10 PM	i pretty much had my answer when i read the title of this thread, but i figured id read it just in case my answer would change........... it didnt. this game is dungeons and DRAGONS. it has elves . if youre trying for realism, try modern. then tweak the rules. but then again, this is for your campaign, so its for your game. not mine. if this is what you want the play rules to be, who are we to stop you? I'm not trying to sell anything. I mearly want to know if someone finds this mechanism flawed in any way - both mechanistically and in playability. (go back to Millennium's interpratation of PEACH) and since "this game is dungeons and DRAGONS", why not stick to OD&D ? (it has elves). I'll tell you why - enhancing the "real" feel. also notice that each version offers more options than the previous.
SilentOne 01-19-06, 05:29 PM	> 50 yards is 150 feet, or 30 squares. Under the current system, an > unencumbered human can do up to 24 squares in one round at a dead > sprint. Is this really the effect you want to have? 50 yards was for running (double speed). don't tell me you don't cover 50 yards in 6-sec running. Lets break this down real quick-like. First off, running is x4 movement, not x2. A double (as you said) of 50 yards would give un unencumbered human a base land speed of 75 feet. And now you're trying to say that everyone can move 75 feet in two seconds? (as your system proposes) Try it some time. Start at the endzone line of a football field, and have a friend time how long it takes for you to run to the middle of the field. Now try and do something after that, while still being under 6 seconds, like attack someone. Go ahead, I'll wait.... Back? Ya, didn't think you could do it. Remember, 1 yard is 3 feet, so next time you go correcting people correcting you, check your data. If you look back to your first post, you set the move to 25 feet, making a double move 25 feet not yards, which is, as the other guy said, 150 feet. As for the system itself, I must say it utterly screws low-dex fighters, or even anyone without really high dexterity. So my Dex 13 fighter (enough for dodge, combat reflexes, and the like), rolls a 6. So I go at the 4.5 second count? What? So I'm just sitting there for 4.5 seconds while the opponent dances around me, doing whatever he wants. Very nice for realism, particularly since I'd be flat-footed through all of this. I think if I saw some guy running at me for 4 seconds I'd be set against his attack, even if he surprised me when he jumped out 50 feet away. And then, when I finally get to go, I have a mere 1.5 seconds to do something, not even enough for a move. Fun stuff that, and very realistic....
nonsi 01-20-06, 09:09 AM	Lets break this down real quick-like. First off, running is x4 movement, not x2. A double (as you said) of 50 yards would give un unencumbered human a base land speed of 75 feet. And now you're trying to say that everyone can move 75 feet in two seconds? (as your system proposes) don't tell me what I ment. with my approach you can move up to 1/2 your max running speed without provoking. if 25' is 1/2 of max running speed, than max running speed is 50 - in 2-sec ( = a move action time period). that's how you get to a max distance cover of 50 yards ( = 150') in 6 seconds (60 yards if you took Dash). Back? Ya, didn't think you could do it. Remember, 1 yard is 3 feet, so next time you go correcting people correcting you, check your data. 1. 1st understand the suggestad game mechanics. if you're not sure - ask for clarifications. 2. when the adrenaline is pumping full steam - you'd be surprised what one is capable of. As for the system itself, I must say it utterly screws low-dex fighters, or even anyone without really high dexterity. So my Dex 13 fighter (enough for dodge, combat reflexes, and the like), rolls a 6. So I go at the 4.5 second count? What? So I'm just sitting there for 4.5 seconds while the opponent dances around me, doing whatever he wants. Very nice for realism, particularly since I'd be flat-footed through all of this. I think if I saw some guy running at me for 4 seconds I'd be set against his attack, even if he surprised me when he jumped out 50 feet away. And then, when I finally get to go, I have a mere 1.5 seconds to do something, not even enough for a move. Fun stuff that, and very realistic.... with my approach you roll 1ce (ONCE) for the entire encounter - just to see how long it takes everyone to get their heads straightened on the combat arena configuration and start acting. from there on everything happens in a cicle and DEX is not a factor.
Gilean 01-20-06, 11:24 AM	you move in a flanked square (then determine randomly who gets the AoO)Clunky. Let the one who is next on initiative take it. But not random selection. I didn't understand the system in its entire scope. Sorry. But thiswith my approach you roll 1ce (ONCE) for the entire encounteris a core rule, in case you didn't know it already.
Lina_Inverse 01-21-06, 06:55 PM	Heres my honest evaluation. Keep it simple stupid. too complex.
Gilean 01-22-06, 05:59 AM	Heres my honest evaluation. Keep it simple stupid. too complex.These are not probably going into public. A small group may very well find them fun. Or too simple. That is not very constructive, as far as criticism goes.
starfire311 01-23-06, 03:37 PM	1. Move actions take 2 seconds. Movement based AoO's are only provoked by running (50% speed increase). This updates most medium humanoids' land speed from 30' to 25' (50 yards in 60 seconds is realistic for someone who doesn't spend all his free time running). Notice that Fast Movement doesn't stack with running. It just means that you know how to move close to your max speed without provoking AoO's. This is causing me some confusion, perhaps it is the wording, but lets break it down. Move takes 2 seconds Running = 50% speed increase Base Speed = 25ft Double move = 50ft triple move = 75ft running = base speed + 50% base speed= 37.5ft double run = 75ft triple run = 112.5ft Full Run = 150ft Fast movement = 35ft but doesnt increase run speed Is this what you mean? I am also not sure what you are doing with the AoOs from running, they only happen when you run through flankers? Then it is random? If anything it should be both or the runner chooses which one he is going to "let his guard" down against. I am also not sure what you mean by "action fragment" do you mean that if you do a double move leaving you with 2 seconds left you could then start a standard action?