Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elussan of the Bow 07-23-05, 02:08 PM	Has anyone used the LA reducer rule in Unearthed Arcana in their game? I have a player who wants to get rid of his +2 LA at 10th level, but I believe he just made 10th level. If he uses the rule, I understand that he loses 9,000 XP (Effective Character Level-1x1,000), but according to the rules, he's only supposed to drop by 1 Effective Level. If he just got 10th level, wouldn't losing 9,000 xp drop him below the mark, bringing him to 9th level, and then drop his ECL by another 1 for losing the xp (giving him a total loss of 2 levels, effectively)? Also, I'd like to know if any of you have encountered this and what set backs it has caused in other games. Thanks in advance! *El
Verelor 07-23-05, 03:21 PM	In most people's opinions and not just my own, Level Adjustments are more of a tool WotC uses to encourage players to use the standard races over MM beasties and a bit less of an honest balancing tool. The standard level adjsutments as written are best for a low-power campaign. In my honest opinion, all level adjustments should be 1 lower than written. An aasimar is truly going to be hardly more powerful than say, a dwarf on the basis of race alone. As the character with a level adjustment continues to reach new heights of power, class becomes more and more important and race becomes less important to everything. To put it simply, you can remove 1 level adjustment per five levels of the character. Ex.- You decide to play a svirfneblin rogue in a tougher than average campaign (the ideal condition for this setup), which has a level adjustment of +3, automatically subtracted by 1 to become +2. When the svirf reaches level 5, it loses a point of level adjustment and goes down to level 4. At level 10, the powerful svirfneblin rogue has a race that is now far cooler for being there and hardly overpowered for not being LA +3. He removes his last point of level adjustment and recedes to level 9. The Unearthed Arcana method is decent yet flawed, just like mostly everything else in UA. Another good method for playing the more common Level Adjusted races at LA 0 can be found here at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a
kliate 07-23-05, 03:43 PM	The level adjustment reducing rule has a few finer points to it that are often overlooked at a glance. Consider: Korith the Tiefling Wizard just reached level 3 (ECL 4), and wants to reduce his level adjustment. He has 6500 experience points, and spends 3000 XP to remove his level adjustment. So, having just leveled to being a Wiz3 (LA +1, ECL 4) and burning his 3000 XP to remove his level adjustment, his now has 3500 XP which makes him a Wiz3 (LA +0, ECL 3). Paying experience for reducing his level adjustment hasn't weakened Korith in any noticable fashion. He has three wizard levels and all of his tiefling abilities as before - his experience total has simply dropped by 3000. This has some additional interesting effects. Had Korith not burned his level adjustment, he would have needed 3500 XP to reach his next level. Having removed the level adjustment, Korith now only requires 2500 XP to reach his next level...in fact, each level increase now requires 1000 XP less than what it had before. This is the main benefit of removing a level adjustment. So, taking this example further... Without removing his level adjustment, Korith would require 3500 XP additional to reach his 4th wizard level. Then he would need an additional 5000 XP to reach his 5th wizard level, 6000 XP to reach his 6th and so forth. Having removed his level adjustment, Korith is still considered a 3rd level character for the purposes of the experience table (a tiny boost in XP here and there, but potentially significant in the long run) and requires 2500 XP to reach his 4th wizard level. Then 4000 XP more to reach his 5th, 5000 XP on top of that to reach 6th and so forth. So the real effect of reducing/negating level adjustments is that you speed up the leveling of characters with low-moderate level adjustments. In a campaign filled with characters who have LA, it doesn't make too much difference...but for a Tiefling surrounded by humans, it keeps his small advantages from taking an LA race from holding him back at higher levels.
Verelor 07-23-05, 03:46 PM	In my opinion my homebrewn method is better if only for the fact that it is nicer, simpler, and attractive.
Elussan of the Bow 07-23-05, 03:55 PM	Alright, well, my player has a +2 LA, and is 10th level. I read that you can get rid of 1 point of LA at 6th level and at 9th level. Is that 1 at 6th OR 2 at 9th, or do you get rid of 1 at 6th and the other 1 at 9th? If it is the former, should my player lose 9k XP and get rid of his LA altogether? Or if it is the latter, and he's already missed the first point drop at 6th level, does he only have a chance to lose 1 point of LA anymore?
Verelor 07-23-05, 04:11 PM	Under my system, he would have started with only 1 LA because all LA's are to be subtracted by 1. At level 5 (the levels that a LA is removed are 5, 10, 15, etc. ECL regardless of anything) he loses his last point of LA and recedes to level 4, an accurate level of power at that point. Hope that clears thigns up :-) I'd be happy to go into further details if you're still confused. Edit: To remove any confusion whatsoever, here's a more detailed example. In a very high-powered campaign a character chooses a LA 8 character with 1 cleric class (total ECL 9), under my system automatically reduced by 1 LA for a LA 7 cleric 1 (total ECL 8). Also, because his ECL is higher than 5, he loses another LA and is now LA 6 Cleric 1 (total ECL 7). The following chart shows the following character leveling up to vast heights of power and shows how his LA and ECL is effected by this system. ECL: Reaches 10 and is reduced to 9 (La 5 + Cl 4) LA: From 6 to 5 ECL: Reaches 15 and is reduced to 14 (La 4 + Cl 10) LA: From 5 to 4 ECL: Reaches 20 and is reduced to 19 (La 3 + Cl 16) LA: From 4 to 3 ECL: Reaches 25 and is reduced to 24 (La 2 + Cl 22) LA: From 3 to 2 ECL: Reaches 30 and is reduced to 29 (La 1 + Cl 28) LA: From 2 to 1 ECL: Reaches 35 and is reduced to 34 (Cleric 34) LA: From 1 to 0 Great system, isn't it? A character with that kind of insane power is so much better represented at that point with level 34 than level 42, when race matters for hardly nill anymore.
Lord Schpungus 07-23-05, 04:56 PM	well, what do you give PHB races in exchange for making them too weak to compete? LA isn't foolproof, but it's the best we've got. A tiefling is far and away a better choice at LA 0 than any 'normal' LA 0 race. So, you just don't play with the phb, then?
Abel2306 07-23-05, 06:33 PM	Alright, well, my player has a +2 LA, and is 10th level. I read that you can get rid of 1 point of LA at 6th level and at 9th level. Is that 1 at 6th OR 2 at 9th, or do you get rid of 1 at 6th and the other 1 at 9th? If it is the former, should my player lose 9k XP and get rid of his LA altogether? Or if it is the latter, and he's already missed the first point drop at 6th level, does he only have a chance to lose 1 point of LA anymore? when the LA +2 character reaches his 6th class level (charcter level 8), he can sacrifice 7000xp to reduce his LA by 1 making him LA +1 with 6 class levels (character level 7), his next chance to reduce his levels will be when he attains his 9th class level (character level 10). So when the now LA +1 character gains his 9th class level (character level 10), he sacrifices 9000 xp at this point and buy back his last LA. He is now a LA +0 character with 9 class levels (charcter level 9 :D ) The math doesn't make you lose any levels, you still gain the new level when sacrificing the xp since you lower your character level by 1 each time. Now your charater is 1 level behind the group but will earn more xp from every encounter and catch up fairly quickly, as they gained levels faster than you in the begining since they had no LA. LA's aren't very balanced and hamper characters in the long run, the sacrificed xp becomes insignificant at a point in the game where the lost skills, hit dice, saves and BAB, etc., are really starting to become factors.lets not forget that a level 20 character no longer gains BAB that add attacks per round, by reducing your LA, you can now reach those 20 class levels and the skills, BAB, hit dice and saves that come with them. Allthough it will mathematically cost more xp to become an epic level character, the extra xp gained when being lower levelled than the rest of your group even's this out. Some GM's aren't open to using the reduction... some prefer keeping the high powered races penalized with their LA's even at high levels. As for being past the level at which sacrificing was possible... if he just now became aware of this new option and the GM accepts it, it is suggested you adjust the characters LA one level at a time every time he reaches a new Charcter level until he is of the proper character level in que with the rule in your example, LA +2 : sacrifice 7000 xp at class level 9 (character level 11), then sacrifice the 9000xp at class level 10 (character level 11) as you would normally when using this rule. HOPE this helps :P
Siduakal 07-23-05, 06:34 PM	We paid ours off like this.. LA level bought off x 1000 So buying off a +2 LA costs 3000 total.. 2000 for the +2 to go to +1.. 1000 to finish it. Ignore ECL. Atleast, that's how we do it. I bought off a +7 LA.. THAT was painful.
Verelor 07-23-05, 08:18 PM	well, what do you give PHB races in exchange for making them too weak to compete? LA isn't foolproof, but it's the best we've got. A tiefling is far and away a better choice at LA 0 than any 'normal' LA 0 race. So, you just don't play with the phb, then? Before I go on, let me say this: Every character in the party beign equally powerful and/or balanced in mostly all the same situations is nearly impossible to truly achieve and really doesn't even do anything to make the game more fun. A cool character you are compelled with and have fun playing is always more important than a min/maxed steroid loon. That is absolutely not what this means. Player's Handbook classes are great for someone who is not very advanced at the game yet, or for someone who doesn't want to play a wierdo that the townspeople mistrust or fear at all turns. Monster Manual races are quite difficult to play, with many stange powers for the player to get used to and mistrusting societies to prove himself to. A tiefling might not be, but a mind flayer certainly will be. Additionally, if your group is correctly roleplaying at all, try this for size. You've got a gnome rogue and a slightly more powerful teifling rogue, both with no LA in this game of course. The tiefling rogue happens to be mechanically more powerful at the very beginning of things and the gnome rogue slightly weaker (a disadvantage that will be completely insignificant after only a couple more levels). Yet even when the teensy power disadvantage of the gnome rogue is erased, the tiefling rogue (which will always be harder to maintain and play, btw) is always going to have to deal with the fact that he looks plain demonic, has little reddish-black horns growing out of his head, and looks like he'd kill you if the situation were more towards his favor no matter what his or her alignment really is. This is going to come up in almost every conversation the character has and will probably get that character in trouble with more than a few holy smiter types. Meanwhile, the gnome rogue remains much eisier to play and holds no tensions with any civilised race. Many dungeon masters don't even allow MM races in their games, BECAUSE they are overly worried that those races are too powerful adn tough to play. There is plenty of reason to choose a PHB race over an adjusted one. This isn't going to happen with, say, a celestial charcter, but those tend to be particularly hard to play and sometimes roleplay. WIth power coems responsibility. The Unearthed Arcana system can't even compare with mine IMHO.
Elussan of the Bow 07-23-05, 08:45 PM	Thanks for the help, Abel. I'm going to use that info for my group tomorrow. Verelor: I think reducing the LA by one is overpowering at any level. Right now, I have a star-elf/half-fey in my game whose charisma is ridiculous, thanks to those two racial choices. His saving throw DC for a 2nd level spell-like ability is 19. How that compares to a 2nd level spell coming from a tielfling wizard, well, you can see where I'm going with that. Other than that, I don't see any problem with your system, except the fact that I'm past the point where his LA would have been reduced already. Thanks everyone. As always, a big help.
Invarus 07-23-05, 08:51 PM	An "it makes for more difficult roleplay" explanation isn't a very good one. This is no help at all in a hack and slash campaign, a campaign with a special world that eliminates any stigma for one race or another, or a campaign where the DM simply doesn't want to have the players' races affect important things dramatically. To follow up, eliminating LA may work for certain "minor" LA races, like Aasimar and Tieflings, but any easy way of just discarding LA in general is probably a bad idea right there. Drow get SR, more SR than most -prestige classes- give, that doesn't become unimportant at higher levels. Think Drow are balanced by social stigma? See above, and the next example. Svirnefblin, which you appear to have somehow used as an example, get 4 more AC than anybody else. That reduces their chance of getting hit in combat by 20%. That doesn't become unimportant at higher levels either. Svirnefblin are a bit odd folk, but not one that would receive any social stigma. You can't just cast aside LA as if it doesn't matter. While I don't necessarily agree that LA works all that well, it shouldn't just not be there at all, or be easily dismissable.
Verelor 07-23-05, 09:04 PM	Me personally? TO hell with one-shots, kick-in the door, or hack-and-slash campaigns. D&D will always be a game you will enjoy not because you can "defeat" it somehow better than anyone else but because of all it's roleplaying intricacies and playing the character you always wanted to play. Alll these damn rules that try to handle everything by themselves and assume the DM to be a mindless enforcing robot. If unbalance actualy makes your games less fun, which I doubt, and the DM can't correct it (something that can be as easy as throwing in a new magic item), then that person was never a fit DM to begin with.
Cymraegmorgan 07-23-05, 09:15 PM	Turn the character's level adjustment into maximum experience for the level indicated(999 xp for an LA +1, 2999 xp for an LA +2, etc.). The character is first level in all respects(including xp awards), but for having a negative xp total. A Hobgoblin 1st level fighter would not reach second level until he collects 2000 xp, wheras the Human had to acquire only 1000xp. At this point they progress normally. An Mindlayer 1st level Psion(LA+7) has an xp total of -27999 at the beginning of the campaign. She needs to collect 29000 xp to reach second level. Then she follows the standard progression. A simple up front buyoff, no fuss, no muss.
Verelor 07-23-05, 09:24 PM	Um, erm...hmm....screw you! :D
Cymraegmorgan 07-23-05, 10:38 PM	Um, erm...hmm....screw you! :D I take that to mean that would work for you? :D
Invarus 07-23-05, 11:14 PM	Me personally? TO hell with one-shots, kick-in the door, or hack-and-slash campaigns. D&D will always be a game you will enjoy not because you can "defeat" it somehow better than anyone else but because of all it's roleplaying intricacies and playing the character you always wanted to play. Alll these damn rules that try to handle everything by themselves and assume the DM to be a mindless enforcing robot. If unbalance actualy makes your games less fun, which I doubt, and the DM can't correct it (something that can be as easy as throwing in a new magic item), then that person was never a fit DM to begin with. I can't really work with that kind of attitude, unfortunately. To me, if you don't care about balance, you might as well just be playing make believe (which, though it sounds like a negative term, I really don't have a problem with). It's just that if you're actually playing D&D, you might as well play it like the balance-oriented, numbers-based game it is, with roleplaying as a variable not covered in the rules. I play D&D like both a video game and an opportunity to experience somebody's world and develop an interesting character. Just so we're clear. Oh, it's also not so much about beating the game itself as it is about being better than those around you, specifically the people you game with. ie. "I'm the king of the castle, and the rest of you aren't as twinked out as I am...omgpwnftw!" You heard me.
R-man 07-24-05, 04:17 AM	I like the ECL buy off rules in Unearthed Arcana and am using them while running two different campaigns (World's largest dungeon and City of the Spider Queen). My only complaint with them is that when making up a new character at high level (9+) ECL+2 is free. Because ECL+2 is free then everyone is taking it and anyone who doesn't is at a disadvantage. However at these levels the advantages gained from ECL are limited at best. I have been thinking about the system and how to affect it that would work better. One way was to cut all ECL's in half and round down. i.e. ECL+1 would become ECL 0 and ECL+2 would become ECL+1 and then make it a permanent drop in class level. Drow is worth ECL+1 past 5th level, it is not worth ECL+2 This would make Deep Gnomes playable at ECL+1 One of the problems that all of the present systems have is that ECL's above +2 really are not playable at all, due to either lack of HP's, lack of Skill points or lack of class abilities. Try putting together a Mindflayer Sorcerer or Psion. Even in a 20th level campaign your character will be so supremely weak that you will be a major liability to your party and not be worth bringing along. Now if the DM doesn't want you playing a Mindflayer Sorcerer in his 20th level campaign then so be it. But if the DM doesn't mind you playing this character then it should be a fun viable and playable option...and right now it isn't. A couple of suggestions is that monsters with HD be forced to take only certain classes to make up the HD. Monstrous Humanoid being one of the choices. But other choices could be made available, they would have to be delibrately weak base classes, suboptimal but would go a long way towards making certain race/class combos a lot more playable. I would like to be able to play an Ogre/pure spellcaster as I like the possible roleplaying options. But I am not willing to give up the enormous amount of class levels lost to be an Ogre. However it also would be extremely unbalancing to just allow me to play the Ogre as an ECL+0 race especially with the racial HD in mind. I really think that there is a good solution to the ECL problem and that in time we will find it. But the problem of different race power levels has plagued D&D since 1st edition and the original introduction of the Drow and the Deep Gnome. WOTC helped the game a great deal by giving Humans a large boost with the extra skill points and feat but it still doesn't make Drow the playable race that it should be.
Verelor 07-24-05, 12:44 PM	So my fully baked system sucks? :( ' Using my nice LA reduction system by that point he'd only have like a +2 LA and the rest psion or sorcerer levels and it would be a perfect gauge of his power. I wub my system! :P
Cymraegmorgan 07-24-05, 09:04 PM	Level Adjustment represents a creature's struggle to subsume both biological and cultural factors to fit into a career path. Frontload the penalty for being a Hobgoblin or a Mindflayer, as in my post somewhere above, and you have a game mechanic that works because of simplicity.
Verelor 07-24-05, 10:11 PM	Alright alright your method is seamless. Would it be too much to ask for you to tell me mine is half-decent?
Cymraegmorgan 07-24-05, 10:17 PM	Alright alright your method is seamless. Would it be too much to ask for you to tell me mine is half-decent? Yours is more than half-decent. It is mathematically well choreographed to certain power progressions. And dropping one LA across the board lifts a burden for a lot of races. :)
Verelor 07-25-05, 11:40 AM	Hm since I'm seriously considering replacing your method with mine in my games, let's get a few questions and answers resolved here. So, in my campaign world PC's begin at 2nd level for a multitude of reasons I won't go into here. A character with a +4 level adjustment needs 18000 experience to advance to level 3, correct, after which point he can continue levelign up as a standard character the rest of his career. Hopefully, I'm "getting" your method fully.
Klytus 07-25-05, 12:46 PM	Turn the character's level adjustment into maximum experience for the level indicated(999 xp for an LA +1, 2999 xp for an LA +2, etc.). The character is first level in all respects(including xp awards), but for having a negative xp total. A Hobgoblin 1st level fighter would not reach second level until he collects 2000 xp, wheras the Human had to acquire only 1000xp. At this point they progress normally. An Mindlayer 1st level Psion(LA+7) has an xp total of -27999 at the beginning of the campaign. She needs to collect 29000 xp to reach second level. Then she follows the standard progression. A simple up front buyoff, no fuss, no muss. But doesn't this create a problem for very top-heavy LA characters? For example, in a monster game I am running, there is a pixie who can cast Otto's Irresistable Dance, for a +6 LA. If she were to start at 1st level, wouldn't that make her an awfully powerful 1st level character? Also, if they are having encounters appropriate to their level, doesn't it take an awfully long time for that character to advance in that first level? The characters in this group are: A pixie Rogue lvl 4, a satyr Bard level 3, A minatour Ranger lvl 2, a Human/Half-Celestial Cleric lvl 6, and an assimar/half-brass dragon Sorcerer lvl 6. The ECL's and hit dice makes everyone in the party Level 10, but only the bard and minotaur have anything close to the hit points and skills of a 10th level character. So when I throw them against CR 10 encounters, it comes close to wiping out the party. But against anything easier, they just walk all over it. I agree the the LA system is broke and needs fixing, I just wish I knew a good way to do it.
Verelor 07-25-05, 02:38 PM	The best you've got is either mine or Cymraegmorgan's LA buyoff systems. Ncie party, though the chances of a group THAT racially unique working together is less likely than the cahnces of a gay, flambouiyant mountain dwarf.
Klytus 07-25-05, 04:47 PM	The best you've got is either mine or Cymraegmorgan's LA buyoff systems. Ncie party, though the chances of a group THAT racially unique working together is less likely than the cahnces of a gay, flambouiyant mountain dwarf. Its worked so far - not all of the members of this group are typical memebers of their race. The pixie in CN, not NG. The Satyr is CN, The Minotaur is true Neutral. The others are more "typical": the assimar/half-brass dragon is CG, and the half-celestial is a CG cleric of Pelor. So far, its worked very well... except for that one time the cleric kept taking arrows and javelins in the back because everyone in the party kept trying to shoot around her and missing because they didn't have Precise Shot...
Eikcuf 07-25-05, 05:02 PM	The characters in this group are: A pixie Rogue lvl 4, a satyr Bard level 3, A minatour Ranger lvl 2, a Human/Half-Celestial Cleric lvl 6, and an assimar/half-brass dragon Sorcerer lvl 6. The ECL's and hit dice makes everyone in the party Level 10, but only the bard and minotaur have anything close to the hit points and skills of a 10th level character. So when I throw them against CR 10 encounters, it comes close to wiping out the party. But against anything easier, they just walk all over it. Give the party some level 10 meat-sheild NPC's Edit: Don't forget they should have level 10 starting equipment
Cymraegmorgan 07-25-05, 06:40 PM	So, in my campaign world PC's begin at 2nd level for a multitude of reasons I won't go into here. A character with a +4 level adjustment needs 18000 experience to advance to level 3, correct, after which point he can continue levelign up as a standard character the rest of his career. Hopefully, I'm "getting" your method fully. LA+4 would start at -9999, so 11,000xp to get to 2nd level. Then another 2,000 xp points, per PHB, to go from 2nd to 3rd. So, 13000 to go from 1st to third, all together. But doesn't this create a problem for very top-heavy LA characters? For example, in a monster game I am running, there is a pixie who can cast Otto's Irresistable Dance, for a +6 LA. If she were to start at 1st level, wouldn't that make her an awfully powerful 1st level character? Also, if they are having encounters appropriate to their level, doesn't it take an awfully long time for that character to advance in that first level? The characters in this group are: A pixie Rogue lvl 4, a satyr Bard level 3, A minatour Ranger lvl 2, a Human/Half-Celestial Cleric lvl 6, and an assimar/half-brass dragon Sorcerer lvl 6. The ECL's and hit dice makes everyone in the party Level 10, but only the bard and minotaur have anything close to the hit points and skills of a 10th level character. So when I throw them against CR 10 encounters, it comes close to wiping out the party. But against anything easier, they just walk all over it. Yes, the higher the LA they greater the burden of achieving second level. You will be quite a powerhouse to start with, but that is balanced by the whole running in place for a while at first level. Your party, as it stands needs to face the smart CR9 monsters, with some CR8 lackeys. If your party had started off as first level characters using my system, they would have looked like this: A Pixie PC would start as a 1st level Rogue with -20999 xp. A Satyr would start as a 1st level Bard with -2999 xp. A Half-Celestial/Human would start as a first 1st level Cleric with -9999 xp. A minotaur would start as a 1st level Ranger with -2999 xp. An aasimar/halfdragon would start as a first level Sorcerer with -9999xp. For argument's sake, let us assume this party accumulated 20,000xp. Divided evenly, you now have: Pixie Rogue lvl 1 with -16999 xp. Satyr Bard lvl 2 with 1000 xp. Half-Cel. Cleric lvl 1 with -5999 xp. Minotaur Ranger lvl 2 with 1000 xp. Half-Dra. Sorcerer lvl 1 with -5999 xp. Another 20,000 xp thrown at the party and you would have: Pixie Rogue lvl 1 with -12999 xp. Satyr Bard lvl 3 with 5000 xp. Half-Cel. Cleric lvl 1 with -1999 xp. Minotaur Ranger lvl 3 with 5000 xp. Half-Dra. Sorcerer lvl 1 with -1999 xp. Doing another 20,000 xp yet again, and you would have: Pixie Rogue lvl 1 with -8999 xp. Satyr Bard lvl 4 with 9000 xp. Half-Cel. Cleric lvl 2 with 2000 xp. Minotaur Ranger lvl 4 with 9000 xp. Half-Dra. Sorcerer lvl 2 with 2000 xp. That is a rather crude example, but it shows how long, in general, it can take to buy off that LA. And as for the CR needed to challenge a party, treat each party member as the typical CR for their race, plus one for every character level. One LA+6 lvl 1 Fighter in a party of lvl 1 Wizard gnomes will throw many early encounters out of wack, but it will balance in a reasonably short time.
Verelor 07-26-05, 01:10 PM	Klytus, you seem to have a very beautific, fey-style party about you. Interesting. In the end, I'm sticking with my method, but it's every DM's personal choice to find a way to deal with LA.
Klytus 07-26-05, 05:59 PM	That is a rather crude example, but it shows how long, in general, it can take to buy off that LA. And as for the CR needed to challenge a party, treat each party member as the typical CR for their race, plus one for every character level. One LA+6 lvl 1 Fighter in a party of lvl 1 Wizard gnomes will throw many early encounters out of wack, but it will balance in a reasonably short time. Cymraegmorgan: I appreciate you doing all this math for me, but there is still something that doesn't seem quite right: this system breaks down when the creature in question has "levels" from Hit Dice. In addition to an ECL+2 for the Satyr and Minotaur, they also start play with 5HD and 6HD respectively, with the requisite Hit Points, Saving Throws, Skills and BABs to go with them. If we're not using the Savage Species monster-level progression (which I'm not) a 5HD Satyr with 1 level in any character class would have to be considered 6th level. But if we tweak your system, he starts 2 levels worth of XP in-the-hole (+2 ECL), giving him 6,000 XP to start with, and needing 15,000 XP to make 7th level. A 6HD Minotaur with 1 level is 7th level with 2 levels in the hole, starting him off at 10,000 XP, and needing 18,000 XP to make 8th level. This has potential. I now need to re-calculate what level everyone in the party is based on this curve... but it sounds like it might work, and make things more balanced once everyone's level is properly calculated and accounted for.
Verelor 07-26-05, 06:30 PM	It's quite simple, really. DON'T give your characters any racial hit die. DM's use this solution on MANY occasions. It's quite hard to explain for the hardier monster races how they don't receive any Hit Die on the basis of race, but it still WORKS. It could be easy to explain story-wise why the satyr or pixie has no racial hit die, yet quite a task explaining the same for why a minataur does not.
Klytus 07-26-05, 08:14 PM	It's quite simple, really. DON'T give your characters any racial hit die. DM's use this solution on MANY occasions. It's quite hard to explain for the hardier monster races how they don't receive any Hit Die on the basis of race, but it still WORKS. It could be easy to explain story-wise why the satyr or pixie has no racial hit die, yet quite a task explaining the same for why a minataur does not. Pixie's only have one hit die normally, so racial Hit Dice is not a factor in their ECL. But this is an interesting option, all the same...
Cymraegmorgan 07-27-05, 12:37 AM	I am ignoring all of the various minutiae of high LA creatures, just factoring them all(Hit Dice, Spell-like abilities, BAB bonuses, etc.) as part of the initial bonus that gets paid for with the negative xp.
Gilean 07-27-05, 04:51 AM	It's quite simple, really. DON'T give your characters any racial hit die. DM's use this solution on MANY occasions. It's quite hard to explain for the hardier monster races how they don't receive any Hit Die on the basis of race, but it still WORKS. It could be easy to explain story-wise why the satyr or pixie has no racial hit die, yet quite a task explaining the same for why a minataur does not.It's quite simple, really. Ignore the LA but increase racial HD instead, if necessary. Single point of LA is worth from 0 to 5 points of racial HD. 0 for lizardfolk, a lot for dragons and outsiders.
Verelor 07-27-05, 02:27 PM	Noone should play an advanced race unless they are quite absolutely sure they can handle the challenge of it. Believe me, even if level adjustment or other balancing emasures never existed, the overwhelming majority of players would still play more basic races because it's so much eaisier and more familiar. Munckins? They can kiss my ass.