Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adun 04-13-07, 02:27 PM	My question is to the DM's out there: What kind of house rules would you use to give a player who wants to play a blind character a fair chance in a DnD game? I ask because I myself want to play a Blind character, and this severly debilitates my character... in fact, it makes him a burden on the party if there is no means to accomadate him. I am trying to purpose to my DM a character level based system where upon 1st, 4th, and ever 4 levels thereafter, my character gains abilities due to his adapting to a life without sight. This is my skeleton of the system, and I would like any advice you can give me towards improving it/ making it DM worthy. Thanks, Adun. ======================================== ========= At 1st Level, the Character receives a +10 bonus to listen checks, and the ability to take 10 on listen checks even in adverse circumstances. As well, the Character is allowed to take a full round action to make a listen check at DC 11+ opposing character's level to make an attack roll at no pentalty. In addition, the character can make a Listen or Dexterity Check (whatever is appropriate) at a +5 DC to do an action that would notmally require sight. At 4th level, the character would gain blindsight 15' in a 360 arc. This represents the charater's ability to sense shifts in sound and air movement. The character, for all intensive purposes can "see", however, the character cannot make spot or search checks, nor can they make any skill check that would require sight, unless they take the +5 DC as stated above. Also at 4th level, the character gains the lightning reflexes feat. At 8th Level, the character's blindsight increases by 10 feet. As well, the character gains Evasion. If the character already has Evasion, the ability is upgraded to Improved Evasion. At 12th Level, the Character's blindsight increases by 10 feet. As well, the character's Evasion upgrades to Improved Evasion. If the character already has Improved Evasion from a class ability, the character instead gains improved initiative. At 16th Level, The character's blindsight increases by 15 feet. As well, the character no longer is hindered by concealment, and takes no penalty for attacking concealed opponents, as the character is adept at predicting his opponent's movements through his finely tuned hearing and sense of touch, this is an extraordinary ability. At 20th Level, The Character's blindsight increases by 5 feet. As well, any opponent within 10 feet of the character is considered flat-footed, as the character is so practised at feeling the tremor's made by foot-falls and air-wakes created when things move. This is an extraordinary ability. The Character's sense of hearing is so advanced that the character's listen skill receives a +5 bonus, and the character can take 20 on listen checks, even in adverse circumstances.
Rhavin 04-13-07, 02:46 PM	Blindfight... Thats all I would allow as DM, if you chose to play a blind character that would be your choice to take the penalties. Don;t take me wrong; Illove the concept and would certainly give roleplaying exp for it. That said, I see no reason why a blind man wuld take up such a risky proffesion. Blind sight seems VERY overpowered to me despite the levels required to get it. Suddenly you can fight perfectly; not only that but you canalways "see" invisible creatures, in effect a permanencied "see invisibility" that cannot be disspelled. By the time they reach 16th level they are already more powerful combat-wise under this system than a fully sighted character wit the only restriction being the range of their sight, which in a darkened area would be as, if not more powerful than darkvision. Every spel that deals with sight is auto-trumped by what you proposed. Also the ability to sense changes in the air is not something evn remotely realistic (maybe thats not what you were going for) I agree wit hthe sound part however, how about blindsense for all of those abilites with a final "crowning" ability of blindsight to 50 feet (55 feet total seems like an odd number to me). The final crowning ability is absurdly overpowered in my opinion; Flat-Footed??? They still are able to see your reactions to their movements and thus can counter them. At 4th level I would allow a feat that overcame the penalties to attack for fighting "blindly" but you would still have the miss-chance and would still need to know where in the grid they were. I apologise if that was rantish or confusing
philipk 04-13-07, 02:53 PM	1. Get Tome of Battle 2. Play a Warblade or Swordsage focusing on the diamond mind school. 3. Pick up the stance that gives you blindsight 30ft. 4. ??? 5. Profit! (I need to lay off the Tome of Battle stuff, but man is it cool!)
polt 04-13-07, 02:53 PM	You wanna be blind? Fair enough. If you don't take the blind sense feat, you won't be able to fight. Naturally, you cross off "spot" from your skill list. Other than that? I wouldn't change anything. I'll never punish a player for wanting to play a certain kind of character, that's lame. The rules are there to help you.
Arcade 04-13-07, 03:07 PM	My rule of thumb is work within what the rules give you and then fill in the blanks if it doesn't fit. To try and even it out, you can give your character Blindfight, Skill Focus:listen and alertness (for the listen bonus). Also using listen as an active skill is a free action and you can take 10 on it. Putting all your ranks in listen at first level, this will give you enough of a bonus to detect invisible opponents (everyone) within 10'. Combat noises will reduce this. Extra listen bonuses, such as being an elf and a high WIS bonus, will increase the distance. I see in the consolidated feat list there is a blindsense feat which may also be appropriate. Being immune to gaze attacks and sight illusions will help mitigate the other sight disadvantages. Use that as a start and see if it's enough. If not, talk to your DM about other abilities. However, I think all your abilities should be frontloaded and you should take abilities and feats to build on it yourself afterward. And if your sight is regained, you consider the bonuses a level adjustment and have to gain XP to make up for the LA before gaining other levels. As another option, I might do something like let your character start out at second or even third level so he can gain the feats I've listed above on his own and then still give him the active listening and take 10 ability. Being blind really requires a higher level character.
Krusk 04-13-07, 04:14 PM	I let any player who wants to be blind go for it. The houserules i use to cover it are below. 1- you cannot see, you auto fail all spot checks. I also suggest you take blind fight, and maybe some of the feats that grant tremorsense ect.
bobothechimp 04-13-07, 04:29 PM	I would give them the same penalties given by the DMG, simple as that. No bonuses whatsoever. They're blind, that's it. Alternatively, I could consider this a flaw and give a bonus feat for it.
polt 04-13-07, 04:32 PM	I just don't see why you guys are so eager to punish a player for something he thinks it's cool. I mean, if he did something stupid in the game, and becomes blind in course of the story you're trying to tell. That's fine, he's blind. But if it's right from the get go, if it's just something the player thinks will make the game more fun for him. Why the heck punish him? It's not like he gains any real bonuses from it, except that he will like his character more, and it'll probably have a positive influence on the game.
Toran_A_Sunder 04-13-07, 04:32 PM	Yeah take the feats that the others suggest. The tree you designed for taking blindness as a flaw is really powerful, and makes being blind not really a flaw at all...oh wow...I lose spot, but I gain blindsight and evasion and all the other goodies like...no penalties for concealment at 15th level? NORMAL characters at 15th level dont get that kind of ability. The fun part about playing a blind character is that it is a disability, not an awesome power granting annoyance. Take blind fight and a couple other sensible feats. But then ur DM maybe crazy :D (no disrespect intended) but I certainly wouldnt allow all those abilities cus you wanted to be blind
hawaiianbrian 04-13-07, 04:56 PM	I designed a character who was blind, though I rarely got to play him. My "concept" of the character was that he had been cursed (by the gods, or what-have-you) so that, in a world of restoration spells and other healing magic, he couldn't just go plunk down a few thousand gp and have his eyes grow back. So he became obsessed with sight, took sorcerer levels (I would have done wizard, but wizards have to be able to read!) and started researching his own spells. His main achievement was a spell which temporarily allowed the caster to see through disincorporated eyes. So every time he or his allies killed a monster, this guy would cut out the dead opponent's eyes with special surgical tools, storing them in a bunch of formaldehyde-filled jars at his belt. Most of the time he went simply blind, but when he really needed to see, he would pull out an eye and either put it in a specially-designed necklace, or in a clear globe at the end of his staff, then cast the spell. The spell would let him see through that eye as if it were his for about 2 hours (before it began to decay and no longer be usable). The staff thing was particularly cool -- I could use it to peek around corners or under doors. I had to make the spell pretty weak so he could cast it at 1st level, though. I actually became obsessed with finding a prestige class for the guy that would grant him sight. You could say his obsession became mine. :) I only found a couple, one of them related to beholders, but it was never clear whether the sight benefits required functional eyes or if they replaced them. So I never went there. Later, I had a neat idea: What if the guy doesn't collect eyes, but was born with different vision? Instead of seeing in the visible light spectrum, he sees magic, as per the arcane sight spell? I imagined this being visually similar to Neo's "Matrix Vision" right at the end of the first Matrix movie -- he can see rough outlines of things in the environment and people, but only certain things he can see clearly. This would be a neat change, because it would be really useful sometimes, and completely useless other times. Either option takes DM approval, of course, because in the first you're creating a new spell and in the second you're giving your character a spell-like ability. But it would make a blind character playable at 1st level without making them overly powerful with blindsight, and it would still give the DM opportunities to play up your character's strengths while giving you the occasional "fear moment" with your weaknesses.
Vharuck 04-13-07, 05:19 PM	I would give them the same penalties given by the DMG, simple as that. No bonuses whatsoever. They're blind, that's it. Alternatively, I could consider this a flaw and give a bonus feat for it. I'd say flaw. I mean, the flaw feat will probably be Blind Fight. Which means they're less worse, but still worse, off. I'd suggest to the player to play a class that might allow him to bypass his blind problems. Try psions, as they have a power that allows them to use one sense to do what another does. In essence, it allows them to "feel" light to see in a way.
Melpomene 04-13-07, 05:25 PM	After a certain level, Remove Blindnes/Deafness is a fact of life, and choosing to remain blind is more of a lifestyle choice. I tossed around the idea of a PrC, but it never got finalized. Characters like Toph and the BNS (I'll tell you when you're older) are staples of fantasy. The quickest way around it is to do a litmus test: does the character do as well as another fighter/monk/samuri of the same level. Try to keep the balance, and it'll all turn out alright.
Xeviat-DM 04-13-07, 05:45 PM	There is a magic item in Magic Item Compendium that costs 9,000 gp which grants Blindsight 30 ft., but also blinds the character. Obviously, they believe the blindness counteracts the blindsight so much that the blindsight's cost is very minimal. I've considered this before too, and my answer depends on the sort of setting you're playing. If psionics are in the setting, I'd make psionic feats to shore it up, but if not, I'd work it this way. First off, your blindness is treated as a double flaw; you gain two feats from it. Blindfight is one feat, and Skill Focus (Listen) is the other feat. Then, I'd allow a feat to give you Blindsense 30 ft. radius, and another feat for Blindsight 30 ft. radius, and another feat to increase the radius. The blindsense and blindsight feats would have listen skill prerequisites. Another thing to note: one could easily price an item to give you the psionic power that allows you to "see sound", so thus you would see with your listen skill. It's a low enough level power that the item wouldn't cost very much.
polt 04-13-07, 05:46 PM	I just don't see why people are so determent to punish the player?
Nathreet 04-13-07, 06:00 PM	Blind people don't become heroes (except mutants, etc.). Blind players usually just want attention. A DM shouldn't give any natural bonuses. That said, play a grimlock. They are blind and get perfect blindsight right from the get-go. The LA, racial HD, etc. are already figured out for you: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grimlock.htm They have good enough stats to make strong warriors even without blindsight. Based purely on stats a grimlock character is a little stronger than a standard-race character of equal ECL. Seems slightly overpowered to me, but I've never played one so I can't say. Anyway it's certainly not game-breaking. Plus you can't cure blindness in a race that has no eyes so there aren't late game problems either. A savvy opponent could introduce sound and smell defeating tactics, but he could also cast invisibility (complain to your DM if he attempts the former but not the latter). Btw, grimlocks get spot as a class skill from their monster levels.
Sticks_Arq_Stones 04-13-07, 06:00 PM	This was given to me by a DM for a blind kalashtar monk/divine mind: Trait: Blind from Birth You have been blind since birth. Benefit: You are blind, but have learned how to cope somewhat with your blindness. You no longer take a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, move at half speed, or take a -4 penalty on Search checks and most Strength and Dexterity based skill checks. You gain Blind-Fight as a bonus feat. Effect: You still automatically fail any checks or activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks). All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) relative to you. Feats: Kalashtar Dreamsight [Psionic, Racial] You have managed to augment your racial ability to mindlink into actual telepathy in order to compensate for your lack of sight. Prerequisites: Kalasthar, blind from birth, power point reserve Benefits: You gain telepathy to a range of 15 ft. The range of your telepathy increases by 5 ft. for every 4 character levels you possess. From Lords of Madness, page 126 Mindsight A creature that his this feat possesses innate telepathic ability that allows it to precisely pinpoint other thinking beings within range of its telepathy. The creature perceives where the others are and how powerful their intellects are. Prerequisite: Telepathy special quality. Benefit: A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. This works much like blindsense – the creature knows what square each thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the being still has total concealment unless the creature can see it by some other means. The creature also perceives several observable characteristics about each being detected with mindsight, including the beings type and Intelligence score. The creature need not take any additional or special actions to gain this information; it is as obvious to mindsight as the being’s race and clothing would be to eyesight.
Fireclave 04-13-07, 06:13 PM	I am trying to purpose to my DM a character level based system where upon 1st, 4th, and ever 4 levels thereafter, my character gains abilities due to his adapting to a life without sight. This is my skeleton of the system, and I would like any advice you can give me towards improving it/ making it DM worthy. <snips potential blindsight brokenation> ... If you intended for these abilities to be automatically assigned to your character by virtue of being blind then, as is, no sane DM is going to give you those abilities essentially for free. Unless you're trying to play a archer or spellcaster reliant on long-ranged spells (which a blind person probably would not), the 55ft of blindsight essentially negate the whole penalty of being blind, so what's the point? And on top of that, you get Evasion, Improved Evasion, Lightning Reflexes; does being blind make you an acrobat? I hope this is a skeleton system for an entirely new base class, prestige class, or LA-inducing template. This really needs to be claried before I can give advice on how to fix/improve it. The way I see it, there are two options for handling blind characters. 1) "Way to Go. You're blind. Have fun." If the player wants to play a blind character, let him play a blind character. He permanently has the blind condition, and all of the effects that conditions bestows. Half the fun is figuring out how to overcome the challenges of his conditions. The DM can suggest feats, spells, skills, abilities, magic items, etc, but the player gets no freebies. If he wants the abilities, he must take them when he's normally able to do so. Suggested Feats: Blind Fight Blindsight, 5-Ft. Radius Skill Focus (listen) Keen-Eared Scout Tactile Trapsmith Combat Expertise Leadership Improved Scent Uncanny Scent Suggested Powers: Touchsight Clairvoyant Sense Astral Construct Read Thoughts Suggested Spells: Scent Arcane Eye Detect Thoughts Detect (alignment) Summon Monster Unseen Servant (debatably) Arcane Sight 2) "I wanna blind the blind samurai!" The player wants the flavor of being blind, but still wants to play an effective character. If you don't get the samurai reference, click here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=IKZ-ZdgXckk) for an example. If you do get the reference, click it anyway. It's as funny as it is cool. Anyway...In this case. Just let the player play his character as if he were a normal, sighted character. This represents the whole "I grew up blind so I honed my senses to super-human sharpness" mythos. The only houserule I would apply in this case: Anything that would require a spot check on the part of the "blind" character automatically fails (or in other words, the "blind" character and can "see" everything that doesn't require a spot check to see). The character could, for example, "see" the table, but not the cat under the table. He could "see: the forest in the horizon, but not the orcs attempting to sneak towards him through the cover of the undergrowth; at least not until the orcs come close enough that a spot check wouldn't be necessary. In exchange, the player gets immunity to gaze attacks for free. Unless your DM likes using a lot of monsters with gaze attacks, this is a fair trade. :twocents:
Fireclave 04-13-07, 06:32 PM	I just don't see why people are so determent to punish the player? It's not punishing the player. The player, by choosing to have a debilitating condition, is punishing himself. Being blind is no small thing. The player has to accept some sort of negative consequence of such a condition. If the player likes the challenge of overcoming the debilitating condition, mission complete. If the player wants to have the condition without that condition having any mechanical impact, then he should meet with the DM halfway (see my second suggestion above). But then you have muchkining players that wan to be "blind," but not really blind, and have super l33+ hearing and blindsight for free. And that's no good.
Xeviat-DM 04-14-07, 03:06 AM	It's not punishing the player. The player, by choosing to have a debilitating condition, is punishing himself. Being blind is no small thing. The player has to accept some sort of negative consequence of such a condition. If the player likes the challenge of overcoming the debilitating condition, mission complete. If the player wants to have the condition without that condition having any mechanical impact, then he should meet with the DM halfway (see my second suggestion above). But then you have muchkining players that wan to be "blind," but not really blind, and have super l33+ hearing and blindsight for free. And that's no good. The player is trying to play a concept; shorring up ones weaknesses so that they are not weaknesses, or turning a weakness into a strength is a character concept. Heck, at its core, Weapon Finesse does this: it allows low strength characters an option for being good in combat. Now, while the OP was suggesting giving blindsight for free after enough time, I did not. Blindsight is a strong ability, but it effectively is regular sight with see invisibility at all times, and that's not really that expensive of an ability.
Fireclave 04-14-07, 05:03 AM	The player is trying to play a concept; shorring up ones weaknesses so that they are not weaknesses, or turning a weakness into a strength is a character concept. Heck, at its core, Weapon Finesse does this: it allows low strength characters an option for being good in combat. I really hope you're not inferring that I know don't know what playing a concept means :bored: And I'm a confused as to what you disagreed with. In the passage you quoted me on, I gave three example ways to realize the blind character concept. A player wanting a challenge to overcome, a player simply wanting to play a concept, and a play that wants to muchkin. Which do you disagree with? Either way, I completely agree with your explanation of a character concept. Shoring up one's weaknesses and turning them into strengths is a valid way to pursue a character concept. In fact, I listed a whole array of stuff off the top of my head that would allow a blind character to do exactly that. However, personally, I think that if the player wants something above and beyond the norm, then he should sacrifice something. Even with your Weapon Finesse example, a player would be making a sacrifice to overcome his inability to use strength effectively in combat. Namely, a feat that could have been spent on something else. I just don't agree that the player should automatically get x+1 because he sacrifices only x. Especially when x+1 makes losing x a moot point. It's not really shoring up one's weakness if that weakness is effectively negated from the get-go; much like playing a kobold without the -4 str, -2 con, and the loathsome kobold stigma. And I'm rather fond of kobolds :cool: But regardless my own personal preference, I provided two answers to the dilemma on both sides of the extreme: putting the responsibility of overcoming the condition completely on the player, and accommodating the condition so the player can play what he wants without many of the complications that may bog the game down. Now, while the OP was suggesting giving blindsight for free after enough time, I did not. Now I'm confused. Are you directing this statement at me, or at the general audience? Blindsight is a strong ability, but it effectively is regular sight with see invisibility at all times, and that's not really that expensive of an ability. Actually, its effectively regular sight + see invisibility + immunity to gaze attacks + immunity to displacement and blur effects + auto-success on spot checks and listen checks. It may not be a very strong ability overall, but its not a particularly weak one either.
polt 04-14-07, 06:23 AM	But you are punishing the player. The player is saying "Hey, I thought this is a pretty cool concept, and I would be a lot of fun to play. I know I probably won't be able to spot things, and I have to take the blind sight feat, but it's cool." And you're going "YEARRRE! YOU ARE BLIND, YOUR CONCEPT IS STUPID, YOUR CHARACTER IS USELESS UNLESS YOU TAKE A MILLION FEATS AND SPEND ALL YOUR SKILL POINTS LIKE THIS." You take the character away from him. Why not just say "Okay fine, your character is blind, that's actually pretty flavourful. Now let's play". You don't have to come up with a bunch of houserules. If it's because you won't some sort of realistic approach to the whole blindness thing, just remember that D&D isn't a realistic system. It's a system where you can sit down and have fun, and punishing your players just because IT SAYS SO IN THE RULES. Isn't very funny. If you're character has been a farmer all his life, do you go "Well okay, but he's probably pretty run down, I mean, being a farmer was really hard work in the medival ages, so he should probably take a penalty to strength and dex. And I mean, he is a farmer, so what time did he have to study stuff? Intellegence penalty too."
Fireclave 04-14-07, 11:59 AM	But you are punishing the player. The player is saying "Hey, I thought this is a pretty cool concept, and I would be a lot of fun to play. I know I probably won't be able to spot things, and I have to take the blind sight feat, but it's cool." And you're going "YEARRRE! YOU ARE BLIND, YOUR CONCEPT IS STUPID, YOUR CHARACTER IS USELESS UNLESS YOU TAKE A MILLION FEATS AND SPEND ALL YOUR SKILL POINTS LIKE THIS." You're exaggerating. A lot. If you actually read my first post, you will see that those are all suggestions for abilities that could be used to overcome blindness, not requirements. You take the character away from him. Why not just say "Okay fine, your character is blind, that's actually pretty flavourful. Now let's play". See the second option I listed in my first post. You don't have to come up with a bunch of houserules. If it's because you won't some sort of realistic approach to the whole blindness thing, just remember that D&D isn't a realistic system. It's a system where you can sit down and have fun, and punishing your players just because IT SAYS SO IN THE RULES. Isn't very funny. See the second option I listed in my first post. If you're character has been a farmer all his life, do you go "Well okay, but he's probably pretty run down, I mean, being a farmer was really hard work in the medival ages, so he should probably take a penalty to strength and dex. There are rules for "run down" farmers. They're called Aging Effects. And I mean, he is a farmer, so what time did he have to study stuff? Intellegence penalty too." The lack of study does not mean a lack of intelligence, in RL or in D&D. You seem to have a strong opinion on this issue. If you don't like the suggestions offered so far, contribute your own idea if you think it's more satisfactory. How, exactly, would you accommodate the blind character concept?
polt 04-14-07, 12:01 PM	I have told what I would do, I'd say "fine, you can't make spot checks, and you need to take blind fighting." Nothing more. The player wants to do something cool with his character, it's ALL flavour, he doesn't gain anything from it, so I'd allow, no penalty besides removing spot and MAYBE demand he took blind fighting. No the aging effects doesn't matter what proffesion you are. You can look into a wall for 30 years, and you'd feel the aging effects. According to the rules that is.
Krusk 04-14-07, 02:54 PM	I just don't see why you guys are so eager to punish a player for something he thinks it's cool. Its not so much punishing a player for doing something they think is cool, and more not rewarding a player for doing something expected. Roleplaying a concept. If they can't see they are at a handycap. A self imposed handycap. This is no diffrent than the player who says i want to drop my int by 6. Leave it at that, there is no need for a bonus to be given. -ive dropped an int really low one game for concept, concept was essentially "gorilla"- If the player really insisted that they should be given a bonus, that leads me to think they are just looking for a free ticket to negate the penalty and gain a bonus. I would consider letting them use it as a flaw giving a bonus feat of their choice though.
polt 04-14-07, 02:57 PM	No, because dropping your int to 6, he gains 4 extra abilitypoints to spent. It's cheesy, it's being a munchkin. Wanting to add a little flavour to your character, is just try to get people to buy in to your character. It's trying to be a good roleplayer. Let the player himself come up with some cool stuff to do when he's blind, it's a great opportunity for some great roleplaying.
Fireclave 04-14-07, 03:46 PM	I have told what I would do, I'd say "fine, you can't make spot checks, and you need to take blind fighting." Nothing more. The player wants to do something cool with his character, it's ALL flavour, he doesn't gain anything from it, so I'd allow, no penalty besides removing spot and MAYBE demand he took blind fighting. I thought your solution would be different somehow. Others have give the same or similar answers, yet you continued to accuse people for wanting to punish the player. No the aging effects doesn't matter what proffesion you are. You can look into a wall for 30 years, and you'd feel the aging effects. According to the rules that is. I wasn't referring to the profession. I was referring to the way you described the farmer: "run down." Connotatively, it sounds like you're saying that farmer has is old and worn down by years of work, which mechanically translates into being a farmer for so long that he's old enough to take aging penalties.
polt 04-14-07, 03:47 PM	Jaysis. Okay, my analogy might not work. It just seems weird to me that a DM would force a player to take all kinds of feats and skills and limit him a lot just because he wants to do something cool.
Fireclave 04-14-07, 03:53 PM	Jaysis. Okay, my analogy might not work. It just seems weird to me that a DM would force a player to take all kinds of feats and skills and limit him a lot just because he wants to do something cool. Who, in this thread, said that the player must take all kinds of feats.
polt 04-14-07, 03:54 PM	Who, in this thread, said that the player must take all kinds of feats. Yeah okay. You have to take a lot of feats to function in a game and in combat.
Fireclave 04-14-07, 04:06 PM	Yeah okay. You have to take a lot of feats to function in a game and in combat. Largely depends on the type of character you want to play, what class he is, and what role you want him to have in the party. It very possible to not need any feats to offset your blindness and still play a very effective character.
polt 04-14-07, 04:08 PM	Largely depends on the type of character you want to play, what class he is, and what role you want him to have in the party. It very possible to not need any feats to offset your blindness and still play a very effective character. But man, that's what I'm saying. If you want to play a blind fighter, I'll let you. I might force you to take the blind fighting feat, just to represent that you've been trained in fighting blind. But besides that? I won't punish you, in melee, you can fight just as good as anybody else.
Fireclave 04-14-07, 04:22 PM	I think you're missing my point. What you are saying is what everyone else is saying. No one has disgreed with your point. You, and the generally posting body represented in this thread, have reached a consensus. There is an agreement here. Your point is our point, and vice-versa. So when you ask "why you guys are so eager to punish a player for something he thinks it's cool," you're saying that you disagree with the very position that you hold. And that doesn't make much sense. Savvy?
polt 04-14-07, 04:24 PM	Somebody was like "If he wants to play blind, he's blind.". I just don't see the need to put rules on it, give him feats and all that. I mean, just let him be blind. Don't change anything for him, besides he can't use spot obviously. But if people agree with that, hey cool, I'll find somebody that doesn't and fight them instead ;)
Adun 04-15-07, 01:01 PM	Whoa! I like most of the feedback, it's giving me a perspective on the whole topic that I find interesting. However I didn't expect to start a flame!!! Sorry guys!
Krusk 04-15-07, 01:14 PM	No, because dropping your int to 6, he gains 4 extra abilitypoints to spent. It's cheesy, it's being a munchkin. you misunderstood. I ment after the first session or after character generation, a player realizes he has rolled a stat too high for his character concept and asks if it is ok to lower this stat. There are no extra 4 ability points to be spent. I wouldnt call that being a munchkin.
polt 04-15-07, 01:48 PM	you misunderstood. I ment after the first session or after character generation, a player realizes he has rolled a stat too high for his character concept and asks if it is ok to lower this stat. There are no extra 4 ability points to be spent. I wouldnt call that being a munchkin. Oh okay, I don't see a problem with that. If somebody wants to lower his ability score to suit his character, I see no problem with it. And by the way, this is a discussion, it's not a flame war at all :D
trapspringer 04-15-07, 02:53 PM	I think a thematically blind character should receive blindsense with a range of five feet. I think blindness is still crippling with this rule. I think they should get blindsense so they will have a good reason not to be running into walls all the time, and so they can function as a melee character. Zatoichi behaved as if he had a similar ability. -it's not free, they are blind. Just like with a trait.
bobothechimp 04-15-07, 06:04 PM	If you are blind, you don't magically improve all your other senses. You may gradually, through effort, become more in tune with them, allowing you the ability to act without sight, albeit not as well as one who can see. The effort taken to do this comes in the form of feats and skill points spent to improve the character.
trapspringer 04-15-07, 06:43 PM	That's all great, but how do you square that with the idea of flaws and traits? (BTW, if you don't like the ideas of flaws and traits, I don't actually give a ****. This guy's talking about taking a hit to one aspect of character and is looking for some way to balance that. He's talkin' about traits.)
Krusk 04-15-07, 07:50 PM	I think a thematically blind character should receive blindsense with a range of five feet. I think blindness is still crippling with this rule. I think they should get blindsense so they will have a good reason not to be running into walls all the time, and so they can function as a melee character. [/I] Couldnt they just use a magic rod that they wave in front of them, and if the magic rod bumps into something say a wall, they would be magically aware of the object in front of them and not walk into it. http://www.antiquesextant.com/images/walkstick1.jpg Blindsense makes them immune to about 1/2 of sneak attacks, which is a huge bonus. I would say at most give it as a flaw, and suggest they take blind fight as a bonus feat.
trapspringer 04-15-07, 08:17 PM	Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. Emphasis added. You wanna edit your post or something? Maybe try to pass it off like you were drunk?
Krusk 04-16-07, 12:51 AM	Man, talk about harsh. reminds self never to joke on interweb... but no i wasn't drunk. Id allow them to take a feat granting blindsense, if one existed. Maybe create a hosue ruled one, prereq- blind fighting, listen 10 ranks. gains blindsense 10 feet. Or something similar. there is also a skill trick i found today that could be of use to a blind charcter. Another thing i would change a bit and offer to let them take. clarity of vision. except exchange all instances of spot with listen, and vision with hearing.
CryoSilver 04-16-07, 01:18 AM	I would make it all RP; no penalties. Being an adventurer, and therefore an extraordinary person, he has overcome his blindness to such an amazing degree that it does not impair him at all. Done.
bobothechimp 04-16-07, 02:10 AM	Being an adventurer, and therefore an extraordinary person, he has overcome his blindness to such an amazing degree that it does not impair him at all. Done. That's what feats such as Blind-Fight are for.
Ack 04-16-07, 07:53 AM	I'd say that the character should be allowed to take Listen as an additional automatic class skill (seeing as he's going to be doing a LOT of it) and if his class would already give it to him, give him a +1 competence bonus (seriously, he would get far, far more practice than the most conscientious sighted person). Secondly, Blind-Fight should be allowed as a class feat. Not required, just allowed. Thirdly ... let him play his character. See what happens. He won't be Daredevil, and nor will he be particularly good at ranged attacks, but assign him a -1 LA for the fact that he's blind and he might even be able to hold his own. Especially when the lights go out.
RobbyPants 04-16-07, 10:32 AM	The way I would do it is if you started off blind, I'd count it as a flaw worth about 3 feats. If not, too bad, you have a bad status. The only problem with this solution is that if the character removes their blindness, what happens to the bonus feats? So it can get a bit contrived. Anyway, if everyone is cool with working with this (and the player agrees to live with their blindness), then I'd create a few Blind feats (assiming the PC takes three of these for the flaw), to help aliviate the blindness, but never completely overcome it. A few I'd thought of would be: Improved Skill Focus(Listen) - Total of +10 on Listen checks (useful for helping to pinpoint by sound). Scent - allow the blind PC to get the scent ablility (good for detecting at close range, and for pinpointing at 5 ft) Memorize Surroundings - if the PC can study their surroundings (for 1 minute per 20 x 20 ft area, max based on Int score), they can memorize the location of furniture, walls, trees, etc in the area. Afterward, they can move their full speed without the normal chance to fall. I had a few others created, but I don't remember them offhand, and this house-rule is still in progress. Anyway, the idea is to give "realistic" (I use the term loosely) ways for a blind PC to cope, but not overcome their condition. I would think the choice to play a blind PC would be more out of role playing flavor than anything else. ...Although a blind fighter could work great in conjuction with a wizard casting spells like Darkness and Blindness ;)
Millenia 04-16-07, 09:57 PM	Suggested Feats: Blind Fight Blindsight, 5-Ft. Radius Skill Focus (listen) Keen-Eared Scout Tactile Trapsmith Combat Expertise Leadership Improved Scent Uncanny Scent You forgot the Hear the Unseen feat from Complete Adventurer. :o
Fireclave 04-17-07, 02:43 AM	You forgot the Hear the Unseen feat from Complete Adventurer. :o Only because I never heard of Hear the Unseen ;)
trapspringer 04-17-07, 01:23 PM	It's a fairly powerful feat. I ran a warforged barbarian who used it to great affect. It is't quite compensatory for sight, but it's pretty frickin' scary. You can, at times, out divine a diviner in close-quarters and dungeon-crawly scenarios.