Please help me figure out my gestalt saves! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Please help me figure out my gestalt saves! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
scout989
09-09-05, 01:46 AM I'm creating an 8th level character in a hybrid 3.0/3.5 campaign, and we're making them gestalt. I am thoroughly confused as to how to figure my base saves.
The character is straight monk on one side. The other side goes fighter5/dragonrider1/order of the bow initiate2. Dragonrider gets +2 to Fort and Will at first level, while OotBI gets +2 to Ref and Will. I just have no idea how to calculate this!
Can anyone help me?
Szatany
09-09-05, 05:07 AM Your saves are +6/+6/+6.
Morwen
09-09-05, 06:45 AM Basically, you take whichever "side" of the gestalt combination has the better save, and use that. Same for BAB.
Korimyr the Rat
09-09-05, 07:21 AM If you're using the Gestalt rules, it is absolutely essential that you use Fractional BAB and Save progressions. Otherwise, the entire thing will get too tricky to keep track of.
Glak
09-09-05, 09:25 AM with one side being all monk it is simple. The key to gestalt is that you take the best of various classes. Monks have the best Fort, Ref, and Will saves in the game. Thus your character uses the monk saves.
Elgonn
09-09-05, 05:41 PM Gesalt takes the better of the two. What gets used is in (). *results are the superior result between the two methods at each level (if there is a winner).

Level Class1 Saves Class2 Saves | Actual Saves
1 Monk (2/2/2) Fighter 2/0/0 2/2/2
2 Monk (1/1/1) Fighter 1/0/0 3/3/3
3 Monk 0/0/0 Fighter 0/(1/1) 3/4/4*
4 Monk (1/1/1) Fighter 1/0/0 4/5/5*
5 Monk (0/0/0) Fighter 0/0/0 4/5/5*
6 Monk 1/(1)/1 DrgRdr (2)/0/(2) 6/6/7
7 Monk 0/0/0 OotBI (0/2/2) 6/8/8
8 Monk (1/1/1) OotBI 0/1/1 7/9/9

Fractional Result is an optional rule. [Pretend .3 = 1/3] Usually used with Gestalt for both Saves and BAB. It can be better or worse dependent on build and the order.

Level Class1 Saves Class2 Saves | Fractional
1 Monk (2.5/2.5/2.5) Fighter 2.5/.3/.3 2.5/2.5/2.5
2 Monk (.5/.5/.5) Fighter .5/.3/.3 3/3/3
3 Monk (.5/.5/.5) Fighter .5/.3/.3 3.5/3.5/3.5
4 Monk (.5/.5/.5) Fighter .5/.3/.3 4/4/4
5 Monk (.5/.5/.5) Fighter .5/.3/.3 4.5/4.5/4.5
6 Monk .5/(.5)/.5 DrgRdr (2.5)/.3/(2.5) 7/5/7*
7 Monk (.5)/.5/.5 OotBI .3/(2.5/2.5) 7.5/7.5/9.5*
8 Monk (.5/.5/.5) OotBI .3/.5/.5 8/8/10*

This really isn't that hard. Although Fractional gets wonky with Gestalt because you can't just "add it up".
Morwen
09-09-05, 07:01 PM That's not quite correct, Elgonn. Gestalt does not let you jump from side to side when one side doesn't increase saves but the other does.

It says you use the best progression, not the best increase.
Elgonn
09-09-05, 07:05 PM It says you use the best progression, not the best increase.

So Gestalt characters should have worse saves than normal characters? I'm not buying it.
Morwen
09-09-05, 08:44 PM So Gestalt characters should have worse saves than normal characters? I'm not buying it.
How would they get worse saves than normal characters?
Elgonn
09-09-05, 08:57 PM How would they get worse saves than normal characters?

Two different Normal Characters:
Monk 8 = 6/6/6
Monk 2/Cleric 2/Ranger 2/Bard 2 = 9/9/9

Gestalt Combo of the above according to you 6/6/6.

The mechanics of multiclassing are a boost to saves. Saying that Gestalt works opposite of that doesn't make any sense.
scout989
09-09-05, 10:16 PM I must admit, I'm working off the SRD version of the gestalt rules, but it really did souns as though it works how Elgonn said. Unfortunately, so far the voting seems to be 5 to 1 agaqinst you, Elgonn (and since Szatany is one of those who went the other way (respect the Szatany!)), I'm probably going to have to conclude that you and I were wrong about that.
Edit: just reread the SRD, and it says that you compare each save individually, though you still have to take each save solely from one side. My new question is, do you get to switch back and forth between sides as one side improves over the other, or are you stuck with one side once you've chosen it? At the moment, my monk saves are all equal or better than my multiclass side, but it won't be that way forever.
Elgonn
09-09-05, 10:42 PM I'm probably going to have to conclude that you and I were wrong about that.

I'm not wrong. You do it the exact same way you do overlapping abilities. Whichever side improves at each level the best is what adds.

HD, BAB, Saves, Duplicate Class Features, etc..

If you don't pick and choose at each level then you'd only get the d12 HD for a barbarian if they had more levels than anything else rather than always getting d12 each time you took it.

Gestalt in no fashion makes you worse than normal multiclassing. You always get the best of both sides every time.
scout989
09-10-05, 01:17 AM Two different Normal Characters:
Monk 8 = 6/6/6
Monk 2/Cleric 2/Ranger 2/Bard 2 = 9/9/9

Gestalt Combo of the above according to you 6/6/6.

The mechanics of multiclassing are a boost to saves. Saying that Gestalt works opposite of that doesn't make any sense.

See, in that example you would indeed get to take the 9/9/9, because that represents the best overall progression. Furthermore, if you had one side with that 6/6/6, and the other side with , for example, 6/2/9, your base saves would then be 6/6/9. For each individual save, you compare each side and determine which gets the best base overall and use that side.

That's at least how I read the SRD, which I'll quote below so that you can see where I came up with that:
For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class.

As I said, I'm new to this, so I'm not claiming that's right- but it's the only way I can see to interpret the quote.
Korimyr the Rat
09-10-05, 05:09 AM This really isn't that hard. Although Fractional gets wonky with Gestalt because you can't just "add it up".

Sure you can. Simply take the best fraction at each level and treat each Gestalt combination as an individual class.

Fighter/Monk, for instance, advances 1 BAB per level and 1/2 each saving throw per level.

Switch over to Fighter/Duelist, and you advance 1 BAB per level, 1/2 each Fortitude and Reflex, and 1/3 Will per level.

Up to you whether or not the first level in a Gestalt with a good save gives you the +2-- for instance, if a Fighter/Rogue took a level of Rogue/Cleric, would they get 1/2 a point of Will save, or 2 1/2?
Elgonn
09-10-05, 05:30 AM As I said, I'm new to this, so I'm not claiming that's right- but it's the only way I can see to interpret the quote.

Every single level up you compare both sides and add the best. Just like the 1st level example. If there was a gestalt example higher than 1st level with rampant multiclassing there wouldn't be any discussion. The non-multiclassed 1st level character just takes the best from both sides. You can't infer more than that. To infer that 'progression' means that Gestalt characters don't use standard multiclassing mechanics is what's reaching.

Sure you can. Simply take the best fraction at each level and treat each Gestalt combination as an individual class.

Yes exactly as I added it together above. The Fractional Saves sidebar claims its "easier because you can just add it up". Harder with Gestalt just because you have to actually make choices.
Lord Schpungus
09-10-05, 10:23 AM Fractional Saves and BAB are necessary because otherwise you get this:

sorcerer 20:fighter 1/wizard 19 has a Base Attack of +20.
scout989
09-10-05, 02:13 PM Fractional Saves and BAB are necessary because otherwise you get this:

sorcerer 20:fighter 1/wizard 19 has a Base Attack of +20.
Okay now I'm back to thoroughly confused.
Edit: Wait I figured out what you're saying, LS. But I have a hard time seeing how you would be able to go back and forth like that for BAB, but not for saves. I just don't buy it. Even if that's how things work by the book, I still don't buy it.
strenoth
09-10-05, 04:27 PM things don't go liek that, it says PROGRESSION.

Whether bab or saves, you use Progression.

good saves progress at a rate of 1/2 per level, and have an initial boost of +2

poor saves progress at a rate of 1/3, and no initial boost.

Bab Comes in 1:1, 3/4, and 1/2

at each levle, us the best available progression of saves & bab
LordGilwen
09-11-05, 11:34 PM don't forget that each save has their own progression. All three saves don't progress together as one unit but individually, which means that you could be taking 2 saves from one side and the third from the other side.

Gil
Schmendrick
09-13-05, 05:14 AM Yes exactly as I added it together above. The Fractional Saves sidebar claims its "easier because you can just add it up". Harder with Gestalt just because you have to actually make choices.
Actually, gestalt is easier with fractional (and all but necessary, as Lord Schpungus noted). It's easy, really...

Mnk1 / Ftr 1 : monk has 2.5/2.5/2.5, Ftr is 2.5/.3/.3. use 2.5's all across
Mnk2 / Rgr 1: monk has .5/.5/.5, Rgr is 2.5/2.5/.3. use 2.5/2.5/0.5

So Mnk2 : Ftr1/Rgr1 has saves of 2.5+2.5 / 2.5+2.5 / 2.5+0.5, or

5/5/3

Don't look at a save progression as:
1) 2 0
2) 3 0
3) 3 1
4) 4 1
etc.

look at it as:
1) +2.5 +0.3
2) +0.5 +0.3
3) +0.5 +0.3
4) +0.5 +0.3

Viewing it as:
1) +2 +0
2) +1 +0
3) +0 +1
4) +1 +0
5) +0 +0
6) +1 +1
may be the easiest, straightforward, and apparently consistent method of going about it, but it's just asking for min/max trouble (as Schpungus also pointed out). Under that method, if you plan your levels right you can get all your base saves to over +20 with a BAB of at least 17 (and wicked spellcasting to boot).
Elgonn
09-13-05, 05:20 AM Actually, gestalt is easier with fractional (and all but necessary, as Lord Schpungus noted). It's easy, really...

Fractional only matters for BAB for Gestalt Characters. Saves are different but the exact same methodolgy between the two methods.

I know its easy. Your list is the exact same thing as my chart above.
Schmendrick
09-13-05, 05:49 AM Sorry, I misread
The Fractional Saves sidebar claims its "easier because you can just add it up". Harder with Gestalt just because you have to actually make choices.
as meaning that using fractional bases made it harder to calculate; I didn't realize you meant that min/maxing a build was more difficult. I getcha now.
scout989
09-13-05, 10:22 PM Well holy crap, people are telling me two exactly opposite things here. This is not what I was hoping for. Is there an FAQ for UA?
Schmendrick
09-14-05, 03:38 AM What different things are you getting?

Frankly, I'm finding a lot of the posts here confusing (due primarily to odd language use, I think).
LordGilwen
09-14-05, 09:53 AM Fractional Saves and BAB are necessary because otherwise you get this:

sorcerer 20:fighter 1/wizard 19 has a Base Attack of +20.

You can't get that at all. You take the best at each level, taking 1 level of fighter does not lock you into the fighters BAB for all twenty levels (if it worked like this saves would suck), just the level when you took fighter. The levels that add to BAB after that would be be the best at each level for the Sor and Wiz classes.

Gil
Schmendrick
09-14-05, 12:45 PM You can't get that at all. You take the best at each level, taking 1 level of fighter does not lock you into the fighters BAB for all twenty levels (if it worked like this saves would suck), just the level when you took fighter. The levels that add to BAB after that would be be the best at each level for the Sor and Wiz classes.
He wasn't saying that Ftr1 "locked you in" to a strong BAB. His point was that if you're not using fractional save bonuses, then you're stuck looking at when each class raises BAB by a point. For Sor/Wiz, that's every even level. By taking your first level of Ftr1/Sor1, you have a BAB of +1 (from Ftr). Then you take Sor2/Wiz1, and since Sor2 increases BAB by +1 from Sor1, your BAB increases again. Then Sor3/Wiz2 gives you another BAB from Wiz2 (since Wiz2 is +1 BAB from Wiz1).

One way to prevent a lot of multiclassing hullabaloo (and lessen the need for fractional save arithmetic) is to simply disallow multiclassing - or else treat every class combination as a different "gestalt class." Then Sor/Ftr is one class, while Wiz/Sor is another; every time you take a new class combination you have to start each progression over. The previous build under those rules would leave you with one level in the "Sor/Ftr" class and nineteen in "Sor/Wiz" - granting you the somewhat less optimal build of Ftr1/Sor1/Sor19/Wiz19. (With a BAB of +1 / +9 and saves of +2,+0,+2 / +6,+6,+11, or +8/+6/+13, not that much different than a "normal" multiclass would have.)
Morwen
09-14-05, 02:07 PM He wasn't saying that Ftr1 "locked you in" to a strong BAB. His point was that if you're not using fractional save bonuses, then you're stuck looking at when each class raises BAB by a point.
This can be eliminated by looking at the number of levels you have a Good progression and the number of levels you have a Poor progression, determining your total base saves using the table on page 22.

(The example would give you Good 1 / Poor 19).

For such a system, each new "Good" class should give the +2 for saves, of course.
Schmendrick
09-14-05, 03:10 PM This can be eliminated by looking at the number of levels you have a Good progression and the number of levels you have a Poor progression, determining your total base saves using the table on page 22.

(The example would give you Good 1 / Poor 19).

For such a system, each new "Good" class should give the +2 for saves, of course.
Well, not every new "Good" class. Ftr1/Rgr1 should still only grant +2/+2/+0, not +4/+2/+0. That's why fractional saves are the best solution. (Somehow, I think what you're trying to suggest is basically fractional save bonuses.)
scout989
09-14-05, 03:51 PM Here are the two different things I'm getting:

1) To figure base attack and save bonus, look at each level. If a save or BAB increases at that level, then so does your base save and BAB (by whichever amount is highest between the classes)

2) To figure base attack and save bonus, look at each instance over the course of your progression for each side of the gestalt. Whichever side of the gestalt has the best progression for that save (or BAB), that becomes your base.

The essential difference is that (1) allows multiclass characters to pick up some awesome base saves while keeping full BAB. I'm not saying that's not how it works, but I've had people tell me both ways. So far, no one has really given much support to what they say- they've just said "This is how it is." Does anyone know of any better examples than what's given in the SRD? By that I mean official examples from WOTC products.
Schmendrick
09-14-05, 05:50 PM The essential difference is that (1) allows multiclass characters to pick up some awesome base saves while keeping full BAB. I'm not saying that's not how it works, but I've had people tell me both ways. So far, no one has really given much support to what they say- they've just said "This is how it is." Does anyone know of any better examples than what's given in the SRD? By that I mean official examples from WOTC products.
RAW (which is kind of a funny term to use since we're using a variant, and "RAW" usually refers to core rules), (1) is the "correct" method, because that's the way multiclassing in works in every other instance. However, there's a reason the "Fractional" sidebar is included on the same page as the gestalt variant: they're intended to be used together, though UA never comes right out and says so. Using method (1) is a min/max'ers wet dream; it's potentially insanely powerful, and in addition, shuffling class progressions to get the best total bonuses while observing multiclass restrictions is.. well, kinda fun (at least, if you're a numbers nerd - which most min/maxers are).

But such shuffling generally requires some potentially odd multiclassing, that system favors heavy multiclassing. Somehow it seems to me that the whole idea of a gestalt variant is to lessen the need for multiclassing, not encourage it.
Elgonn
09-14-05, 08:01 PM However, there's a reason the "Fractional" sidebar is included on the same page as the gestalt variant: they're intended to be used together, though UA never comes right out and says so.

I'd like to point out that the Fractional system while encompassing both saves and BAB only "fixes" BAB. Saves are virtually identical irregardless of system. They generate slightly different numbers but work the same. I'd recommend Fractional just because the 'offset poor bab gestalt' nonsense.
Morwen
09-14-05, 08:31 PM Well, not every new "Good" class. Ftr1/Rgr1 should still only grant +2/+2/+0, not +4/+2/+0. That's why fractional saves are the best solution. (Somehow, I think what you're trying to suggest is basically fractional save bonuses.)
Pretty much, but with less calculating :)
Schmendrick
09-14-05, 11:46 PM I'd like to point out that the Fractional system while encompassing both saves and BAB only "fixes" BAB. Saves are virtually identical irregardless of system. They generate slightly different numbers but work the same. I'd recommend Fractional just because the 'offset poor bab gestalt' nonsense.
Um, you can play the same "offset" with saves to get +22 to a save just like you can with BAB.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
scout989 09-09-05, 01:46 AM	I'm creating an 8th level character in a hybrid 3.0/3.5 campaign, and we're making them gestalt. I am thoroughly confused as to how to figure my base saves. The character is straight monk on one side. The other side goes fighter5/dragonrider1/order of the bow initiate2. Dragonrider gets +2 to Fort and Will at first level, while OotBI gets +2 to Ref and Will. I just have no idea how to calculate this! Can anyone help me?
Szatany 09-09-05, 05:07 AM	Your saves are +6/+6/+6.
Morwen 09-09-05, 06:45 AM	Basically, you take whichever "side" of the gestalt combination has the better save, and use that. Same for BAB.
Korimyr the Rat 09-09-05, 07:21 AM	If you're using the Gestalt rules, it is absolutely essential that you use Fractional BAB and Save progressions. Otherwise, the entire thing will get too tricky to keep track of.
Glak 09-09-05, 09:25 AM	with one side being all monk it is simple. The key to gestalt is that you take the best of various classes. Monks have the best Fort, Ref, and Will saves in the game. Thus your character uses the monk saves.
Elgonn 09-09-05, 05:41 PM	Gesalt takes the better of the two. What gets used is in (). results are the superior result between the two methods at each level (if there is a winner). Level Class1 Saves Class2 Saves \| Actual Saves 1 Monk (2/2/2) Fighter 2/0/0 2/2/2 2 Monk (1/1/1) Fighter 1/0/0 3/3/3 3 Monk 0/0/0 Fighter 0/(1/1) 3/4/4 4 Monk (1/1/1) Fighter 1/0/0 4/5/5* 5 Monk (0/0/0) Fighter 0/0/0 4/5/5* 6 Monk 1/(1)/1 DrgRdr (2)/0/(2) 6/6/7 7 Monk 0/0/0 OotBI (0/2/2) 6/8/8 8 Monk (1/1/1) OotBI 0/1/1 7/9/9 Fractional Result is an optional rule. [Pretend .3 = 1/3] Usually used with Gestalt for both Saves and BAB. It can be better or worse dependent on build and the order. Level Class1 Saves Class2 Saves \| Fractional 1 Monk (2.5/2.5/2.5) Fighter 2.5/.3/.3 2.5/2.5/2.5 2 Monk (.5/.5/.5) Fighter .5/.3/.3 3/3/3 3 Monk (.5/.5/.5) Fighter .5/.3/.3 3.5/3.5/3.5 4 Monk (.5/.5/.5) Fighter .5/.3/.3 4/4/4 5 Monk (.5/.5/.5) Fighter .5/.3/.3 4.5/4.5/4.5 6 Monk .5/(.5)/.5 DrgRdr (2.5)/.3/(2.5) 7/5/7* 7 Monk (.5)/.5/.5 OotBI .3/(2.5/2.5) 7.5/7.5/9.5* 8 Monk (.5/.5/.5) OotBI .3/.5/.5 8/8/10* This really isn't that hard. Although Fractional gets wonky with Gestalt because you can't just "add it up".
Morwen 09-09-05, 07:01 PM	That's not quite correct, Elgonn. Gestalt does not let you jump from side to side when one side doesn't increase saves but the other does. It says you use the best progression, not the best increase.
Elgonn 09-09-05, 07:05 PM	It says you use the best progression, not the best increase. So Gestalt characters should have worse saves than normal characters? I'm not buying it.
Morwen 09-09-05, 08:44 PM	So Gestalt characters should have worse saves than normal characters? I'm not buying it. How would they get worse saves than normal characters?
Elgonn 09-09-05, 08:57 PM	How would they get worse saves than normal characters? Two different Normal Characters: Monk 8 = 6/6/6 Monk 2/Cleric 2/Ranger 2/Bard 2 = 9/9/9 Gestalt Combo of the above according to you 6/6/6. The mechanics of multiclassing are a boost to saves. Saying that Gestalt works opposite of that doesn't make any sense.
scout989 09-09-05, 10:16 PM	I must admit, I'm working off the SRD version of the gestalt rules, but it really did souns as though it works how Elgonn said. Unfortunately, so far the voting seems to be 5 to 1 agaqinst you, Elgonn (and since Szatany is one of those who went the other way (respect the Szatany!)), I'm probably going to have to conclude that you and I were wrong about that. Edit: just reread the SRD, and it says that you compare each save individually, though you still have to take each save solely from one side. My new question is, do you get to switch back and forth between sides as one side improves over the other, or are you stuck with one side once you've chosen it? At the moment, my monk saves are all equal or better than my multiclass side, but it won't be that way forever.
Elgonn 09-09-05, 10:42 PM	I'm probably going to have to conclude that you and I were wrong about that. I'm not wrong. You do it the exact same way you do overlapping abilities. Whichever side improves at each level the best is what adds. HD, BAB, Saves, Duplicate Class Features, etc.. If you don't pick and choose at each level then you'd only get the d12 HD for a barbarian if they had more levels than anything else rather than always getting d12 each time you took it. Gestalt in no fashion makes you worse than normal multiclassing. You always get the best of both sides every time.
scout989 09-10-05, 01:17 AM	Two different Normal Characters: Monk 8 = 6/6/6 Monk 2/Cleric 2/Ranger 2/Bard 2 = 9/9/9 Gestalt Combo of the above according to you 6/6/6. The mechanics of multiclassing are a boost to saves. Saying that Gestalt works opposite of that doesn't make any sense. See, in that example you would indeed get to take the 9/9/9, because that represents the best overall progression. Furthermore, if you had one side with that 6/6/6, and the other side with , for example, 6/2/9, your base saves would then be 6/6/9. For each individual save, you compare each side and determine which gets the best base overall and use that side. That's at least how I read the SRD, which I'll quote below so that you can see where I came up with that: For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class. As I said, I'm new to this, so I'm not claiming that's right- but it's the only way I can see to interpret the quote.
Korimyr the Rat 09-10-05, 05:09 AM	This really isn't that hard. Although Fractional gets wonky with Gestalt because you can't just "add it up". Sure you can. Simply take the best fraction at each level and treat each Gestalt combination as an individual class. Fighter/Monk, for instance, advances 1 BAB per level and 1/2 each saving throw per level. Switch over to Fighter/Duelist, and you advance 1 BAB per level, 1/2 each Fortitude and Reflex, and 1/3 Will per level. Up to you whether or not the first level in a Gestalt with a good save gives you the +2-- for instance, if a Fighter/Rogue took a level of Rogue/Cleric, would they get 1/2 a point of Will save, or 2 1/2?
Elgonn 09-10-05, 05:30 AM	As I said, I'm new to this, so I'm not claiming that's right- but it's the only way I can see to interpret the quote. Every single level up you compare both sides and add the best. Just like the 1st level example. If there was a gestalt example higher than 1st level with rampant multiclassing there wouldn't be any discussion. The non-multiclassed 1st level character just takes the best from both sides. You can't infer more than that. To infer that 'progression' means that Gestalt characters don't use standard multiclassing mechanics is what's reaching. Sure you can. Simply take the best fraction at each level and treat each Gestalt combination as an individual class. Yes exactly as I added it together above. The Fractional Saves sidebar claims its "easier because you can just add it up". Harder with Gestalt just because you have to actually make choices.
Lord Schpungus 09-10-05, 10:23 AM	Fractional Saves and BAB are necessary because otherwise you get this: sorcerer 20:fighter 1/wizard 19 has a Base Attack of +20.
scout989 09-10-05, 02:13 PM	Fractional Saves and BAB are necessary because otherwise you get this: sorcerer 20:fighter 1/wizard 19 has a Base Attack of +20. Okay now I'm back to thoroughly confused. Edit: Wait I figured out what you're saying, LS. But I have a hard time seeing how you would be able to go back and forth like that for BAB, but not for saves. I just don't buy it. Even if that's how things work by the book, I still don't buy it.
strenoth 09-10-05, 04:27 PM	things don't go liek that, it says PROGRESSION. Whether bab or saves, you use Progression. good saves progress at a rate of 1/2 per level, and have an initial boost of +2 poor saves progress at a rate of 1/3, and no initial boost. Bab Comes in 1:1, 3/4, and 1/2 at each levle, us the best available progression of saves & bab
LordGilwen 09-11-05, 11:34 PM	don't forget that each save has their own progression. All three saves don't progress together as one unit but individually, which means that you could be taking 2 saves from one side and the third from the other side. Gil
Schmendrick 09-13-05, 05:14 AM	Yes exactly as I added it together above. The Fractional Saves sidebar claims its "easier because you can just add it up". Harder with Gestalt just because you have to actually make choices. Actually, gestalt is easier with fractional (and all but necessary, as Lord Schpungus noted). It's easy, really... Mnk1 / Ftr 1 : monk has 2.5/2.5/2.5, Ftr is 2.5/.3/.3. use 2.5's all across Mnk2 / Rgr 1: monk has .5/.5/.5, Rgr is 2.5/2.5/.3. use 2.5/2.5/0.5 So Mnk2 : Ftr1/Rgr1 has saves of 2.5+2.5 / 2.5+2.5 / 2.5+0.5, or 5/5/3 Don't look at a save progression as: 1) 2 0 2) 3 0 3) 3 1 4) 4 1 etc. look at it as: 1) +2.5 +0.3 2) +0.5 +0.3 3) +0.5 +0.3 4) +0.5 +0.3 Viewing it as: 1) +2 +0 2) +1 +0 3) +0 +1 4) +1 +0 5) +0 +0 6) +1 +1 may be the easiest, straightforward, and apparently consistent method of going about it, but it's just asking for min/max trouble (as Schpungus also pointed out). Under that method, if you plan your levels right you can get all your base saves to over +20 with a BAB of at least 17 (and wicked spellcasting to boot).
Elgonn 09-13-05, 05:20 AM	Actually, gestalt is easier with fractional (and all but necessary, as Lord Schpungus noted). It's easy, really... Fractional only matters for BAB for Gestalt Characters. Saves are different but the exact same methodolgy between the two methods. I know its easy. Your list is the exact same thing as my chart above.
Schmendrick 09-13-05, 05:49 AM	Sorry, I misread The Fractional Saves sidebar claims its "easier because you can just add it up". Harder with Gestalt just because you have to actually make choices. as meaning that using fractional bases made it harder to calculate; I didn't realize you meant that min/maxing a build was more difficult. I getcha now.
scout989 09-13-05, 10:22 PM	Well holy crap, people are telling me two exactly opposite things here. This is not what I was hoping for. Is there an FAQ for UA?
Schmendrick 09-14-05, 03:38 AM	What different things are you getting? Frankly, I'm finding a lot of the posts here confusing (due primarily to odd language use, I think).
LordGilwen 09-14-05, 09:53 AM	Fractional Saves and BAB are necessary because otherwise you get this: sorcerer 20:fighter 1/wizard 19 has a Base Attack of +20. You can't get that at all. You take the best at each level, taking 1 level of fighter does not lock you into the fighters BAB for all twenty levels (if it worked like this saves would suck), just the level when you took fighter. The levels that add to BAB after that would be be the best at each level for the Sor and Wiz classes. Gil
Schmendrick 09-14-05, 12:45 PM	You can't get that at all. You take the best at each level, taking 1 level of fighter does not lock you into the fighters BAB for all twenty levels (if it worked like this saves would suck), just the level when you took fighter. The levels that add to BAB after that would be be the best at each level for the Sor and Wiz classes. He wasn't saying that Ftr1 "locked you in" to a strong BAB. His point was that if you're not using fractional save bonuses, then you're stuck looking at when each class raises BAB by a point. For Sor/Wiz, that's every even level. By taking your first level of Ftr1/Sor1, you have a BAB of +1 (from Ftr). Then you take Sor2/Wiz1, and since Sor2 increases BAB by +1 from Sor1, your BAB increases again. Then Sor3/Wiz2 gives you another BAB from Wiz2 (since Wiz2 is +1 BAB from Wiz1). One way to prevent a lot of multiclassing hullabaloo (and lessen the need for fractional save arithmetic) is to simply disallow multiclassing - or else treat every class combination as a different "gestalt class." Then Sor/Ftr is one class, while Wiz/Sor is another; every time you take a new class combination you have to start each progression over. The previous build under those rules would leave you with one level in the "Sor/Ftr" class and nineteen in "Sor/Wiz" - granting you the somewhat less optimal build of Ftr1/Sor1/Sor19/Wiz19. (With a BAB of +1 / +9 and saves of +2,+0,+2 / +6,+6,+11, or +8/+6/+13, not that much different than a "normal" multiclass would have.)
Morwen 09-14-05, 02:07 PM	He wasn't saying that Ftr1 "locked you in" to a strong BAB. His point was that if you're not using fractional save bonuses, then you're stuck looking at when each class raises BAB by a point. This can be eliminated by looking at the number of levels you have a Good progression and the number of levels you have a Poor progression, determining your total base saves using the table on page 22. (The example would give you Good 1 / Poor 19). For such a system, each new "Good" class should give the +2 for saves, of course.
Schmendrick 09-14-05, 03:10 PM	This can be eliminated by looking at the number of levels you have a Good progression and the number of levels you have a Poor progression, determining your total base saves using the table on page 22. (The example would give you Good 1 / Poor 19). For such a system, each new "Good" class should give the +2 for saves, of course. Well, not every new "Good" class. Ftr1/Rgr1 should still only grant +2/+2/+0, not +4/+2/+0. That's why fractional saves are the best solution. (Somehow, I think what you're trying to suggest is basically fractional save bonuses.)
scout989 09-14-05, 03:51 PM	Here are the two different things I'm getting: 1) To figure base attack and save bonus, look at each level. If a save or BAB increases at that level, then so does your base save and BAB (by whichever amount is highest between the classes) 2) To figure base attack and save bonus, look at each instance over the course of your progression for each side of the gestalt. Whichever side of the gestalt has the best progression for that save (or BAB), that becomes your base. The essential difference is that (1) allows multiclass characters to pick up some awesome base saves while keeping full BAB. I'm not saying that's not how it works, but I've had people tell me both ways. So far, no one has really given much support to what they say- they've just said "This is how it is." Does anyone know of any better examples than what's given in the SRD? By that I mean official examples from WOTC products.
Schmendrick 09-14-05, 05:50 PM	The essential difference is that (1) allows multiclass characters to pick up some awesome base saves while keeping full BAB. I'm not saying that's not how it works, but I've had people tell me both ways. So far, no one has really given much support to what they say- they've just said "This is how it is." Does anyone know of any better examples than what's given in the SRD? By that I mean official examples from WOTC products. RAW (which is kind of a funny term to use since we're using a variant, and "RAW" usually refers to core rules), (1) is the "correct" method, because that's the way multiclassing in works in every other instance. However, there's a reason the "Fractional" sidebar is included on the same page as the gestalt variant: they're intended to be used together, though UA never comes right out and says so. Using method (1) is a min/max'ers wet dream; it's potentially insanely powerful, and in addition, shuffling class progressions to get the best total bonuses while observing multiclass restrictions is.. well, kinda fun (at least, if you're a numbers nerd - which most min/maxers are). But such shuffling generally requires some potentially odd multiclassing, that system favors heavy multiclassing. Somehow it seems to me that the whole idea of a gestalt variant is to lessen the need for multiclassing, not encourage it.
Elgonn 09-14-05, 08:01 PM	However, there's a reason the "Fractional" sidebar is included on the same page as the gestalt variant: they're intended to be used together, though UA never comes right out and says so. I'd like to point out that the Fractional system while encompassing both saves and BAB only "fixes" BAB. Saves are virtually identical irregardless of system. They generate slightly different numbers but work the same. I'd recommend Fractional just because the 'offset poor bab gestalt' nonsense.
Morwen 09-14-05, 08:31 PM	Well, not every new "Good" class. Ftr1/Rgr1 should still only grant +2/+2/+0, not +4/+2/+0. That's why fractional saves are the best solution. (Somehow, I think what you're trying to suggest is basically fractional save bonuses.) Pretty much, but with less calculating :)
Schmendrick 09-14-05, 11:46 PM	I'd like to point out that the Fractional system while encompassing both saves and BAB only "fixes" BAB. Saves are virtually identical irregardless of system. They generate slightly different numbers but work the same. I'd recommend Fractional just because the 'offset poor bab gestalt' nonsense. Um, you can play the same "offset" with saves to get +22 to a save just like you can with BAB.