please help with new poison rules. [Archive] - Wizards Community

please help with new poison rules. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Piropoint
12-28-07, 10:14 AM An aspect of poison use I have found to be "not fun" is the notion that a successful stab with a poisoned dagger renders the blade sterilized. This may be a bit weird but could poison that is coated to a weapon be thought of in terms of ammunition?

A poison that when applied to a dagger has the potential to deliver 1d4 Str damage. lets say that when it affects its first target it can deal 2 points of Str damage if the target fails the save. Would it be absurd to suggest that maybe the blade is still poisonous? Maybe now it has a weakened potency. Maybe the next time it is used it can only inflict a maximum of 1d2 Str damage. Using this method you would check damage done and then see if the target saves against it. This way you have the potential to poison up to a handful of people before the poison wears out. those people may save or fail, but the poison still wears out at the same rate.

Maybe instead of saying it has weakened potency it would be better to call it "weakened chance" of poisoning your target. The first successful poisoning is ensured because your assassin has taken great care in coating the edge of his knife. The next time the knife strikes it may only have a 50% chance of poisoning your target. then 25%. Again this method counts the number of successful hits and not the number of targets that actually feel the effect of the poison.

Any thoughts would be nice.
Tequila_Sunrise
12-28-07, 11:19 PM Maybe instead of saying it has weakened potency it would be better to call it "weakened chance" of poisoning your target. The first successful poisoning is ensured because your assassin has taken great care in coating the edge of his knife. The next time the knife strikes it may only have a 50% chance of poisoning your target. then 25%. Again this method counts the number of successful hits and not the number of targets that actually feel the effect of the poison.

I think the 'weakened chance' of poisoning the target is the better option, but I don't like adding percentile rolls. Maybe say that the second stab reduces the poison's DC by 2, the third by 4 and after that the poison is so smudged and thin that it runs out.

Will you be adding cost to poisons that allow multiple poisonings per dose?
Olik
12-31-07, 04:07 PM How about:

Poison coated blade can only deliver one dose per attack. Poison wears off weapon after one successfull poisoning.

Poison price increased x4 (300g dose now costs 1,200g)

Poison lined sheath: when the weapon is sheathed, it is coated again with poison. sheath only holds one type of poison. sheath dries out after 1 week or 10 coatings. if a poisoned blade is put into the sheath, a poison coating from the sheath is not used.

IE: you draw your blade (poisoned) and attack. poison does not effect target for whatever reason. you sheath the blade. you still have 9 coatings left in the sheath and your blade is still poisoned.

you draw your blade (poisoned) and attack. poison effects target. you sheath the blade (poisoned again). you still have 8 coatings left in the sheath, and your blade is now poisoned again. (first sheath = -1 coating. second sheath = -1 coating. total coatings used on enemies = 1. 8 in the sheath, 1 on the weapon.)

rolling a d% would take the same amount of time as rolling a fort save, and since you have to roll one or the other regardless, it doesnt take time away from determining if your target is successfully poisoned.

I dont like the fort save rule because honestly, if i slip cyanide into Arnold "the govonator's" drink, he has the same chance of dying as someone who isnt huge and burly. Although, it might take more doses to poison a great big fat person to the same effect as one dose would poison someone who is small. Think of drinking beer. large people usually have a higher tolerance (assuming a fat person and a small person have no built up tolerance).

So if i wanted to buy a sheath with "Bob's magical knock-out goop" in it, i would find out how much 1 dose of bobs goop (yes i know what this sounds like) normally costs, and i would multiply that cost by 10, since the sheath would have 10 doses.

I would think that the DC saves for existing poisons stay the same, but to cut back on rolling time and keep things smooth, you'd need a way to determine if the big burly guy feels the full effect of the poison, or only a muted effect.

my idea is this:

Herman the brawler: +5 fort save.
Larry the magical: +1 fort save.

Both poisoned with Leeroy's poison of pain (DC 14). Injury, 1d8 damage.

Ben the deadly ninja attacks them both with a poison dagger, and he lands both hits. he rolls a d% to see if they are poisoned (75% chance). ben rolls a 73% and a 42%. both are poisoned. (76-100% = poison fails to effect the victim. maybe the poison was made poorly or was too deluted of a dose)

to see if they are effected full or muted (half effect / damage), they both take a 10 on their fort save and add their modifier.

Herman = 15 vs DC 14
Larry = 11 vs DC 14

Herman takes muted poison damage. 1d4.
Larry takes full poison damage. 1d8.

In this method there is no extra rolling. you just swap the fort save rolls (which are now reduced to "take 10 + mod") for a d% roll.

In real life, if you were to poison 100 people that weigh the same and are about the same age, hight, etc, with the same dose of poison, you would not see very much variation in the effects of the poison. in the game, if i have 30 constitution (+10) and i roll a 2 for my fort save, i only have a fort save of 12, which means almost every poison would effect me. if you are taking 10 on the fort save for poisons, its no longer about your body's random chance to fight off the poison or let it effect you, but rather now it focuses on the strength of the poison.

I dont think it would be too far fetched either to give the sheath a way to "double up" poison doses on a blade. give two doses at once. for a double dose, add 1/2 the current DC to the DC. anyone whos fort save is failed by 10 or more feels double effects. heres the same scenario with a double dose:

Normal Dose of Leeroy's poison of pain = DC 14
Double Dose of Leeroy's poison of pain = DC 14 + (14/2) = 21 (14+7)

Herman the brawler: +5 fort save
Larry the magical: +1 fort save.

both take 10, giving them 15 and 11, respectfully.

a double dose of Leeroy's poison of pain (DC 14) becomes (DC 21).

Herman the brawler is effected normally and suffers 1d8 of damage (DC 21 - 15 = 6 point difference. failed save, but not double effects).

Larry the nerd has a save of 11, and the DC is 21. not only does he fail his save, but he fails by 10 points, which means he takes double effects. 2d8 damage from the poison. Maybe Larry the nerd will go out and start beefing up a little, because poisons actually hurt him since he is weak and frail.

This looks like a ton of stuff to remember, and everyone hates math, but there really arent that many poisons floating around that i know of. most of the DCs are even numbers, so adding up the double dose is a 2nd grade math equivalent.

18/2 = 9. 18+9 = 27. DC 27 for a double dose of DC 18 poison.

Roll D% instead of Fort saves. 0-75% = poison effects target.
Anyone who would roll a fort save just takes 10 instead. if their fort save beats the DC, they take half damage / effect (or whatever the DM decides).

Doubling a dose makes it easier to poison larger targets successfully, and poisoning smaller targets yields more bang for your buck.

Poison costs are x4 so its not exactly feasible to poison everyone all the time unless the player craps gold coins. if the player is dead rich or just abusing the more reliable poison effects, the DM can just say the poisons cant be purchased so the player has to make his own (buy materials. refine the poison, which takes a week and possibly no yielded doses for that week or lost materials. all the core rules for making poisons). Or the DM can restrict how much poison is purchased from a certain area, Increase suspicion of PC for mass poison purchases, or something of that nature. theres easy ways to keep things in check. and if worst comes to worst, someone steals the PC's poisoned weapon and uses it against the PC. a taste of their own medicine in the most literal sense.

This is an untested system for poisons.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Piropoint 12-28-07, 10:14 AM	An aspect of poison use I have found to be "not fun" is the notion that a successful stab with a poisoned dagger renders the blade sterilized. This may be a bit weird but could poison that is coated to a weapon be thought of in terms of ammunition? A poison that when applied to a dagger has the potential to deliver 1d4 Str damage. lets say that when it affects its first target it can deal 2 points of Str damage if the target fails the save. Would it be absurd to suggest that maybe the blade is still poisonous? Maybe now it has a weakened potency. Maybe the next time it is used it can only inflict a maximum of 1d2 Str damage. Using this method you would check damage done and then see if the target saves against it. This way you have the potential to poison up to a handful of people before the poison wears out. those people may save or fail, but the poison still wears out at the same rate. Maybe instead of saying it has weakened potency it would be better to call it "weakened chance" of poisoning your target. The first successful poisoning is ensured because your assassin has taken great care in coating the edge of his knife. The next time the knife strikes it may only have a 50% chance of poisoning your target. then 25%. Again this method counts the number of successful hits and not the number of targets that actually feel the effect of the poison. Any thoughts would be nice.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-28-07, 11:19 PM	Maybe instead of saying it has weakened potency it would be better to call it "weakened chance" of poisoning your target. The first successful poisoning is ensured because your assassin has taken great care in coating the edge of his knife. The next time the knife strikes it may only have a 50% chance of poisoning your target. then 25%. Again this method counts the number of successful hits and not the number of targets that actually feel the effect of the poison. I think the 'weakened chance' of poisoning the target is the better option, but I don't like adding percentile rolls. Maybe say that the second stab reduces the poison's DC by 2, the third by 4 and after that the poison is so smudged and thin that it runs out. Will you be adding cost to poisons that allow multiple poisonings per dose?
Olik 12-31-07, 04:07 PM	How about: Poison coated blade can only deliver one dose per attack. Poison wears off weapon after one successfull poisoning. Poison price increased x4 (300g dose now costs 1,200g) Poison lined sheath: when the weapon is sheathed, it is coated again with poison. sheath only holds one type of poison. sheath dries out after 1 week or 10 coatings. if a poisoned blade is put into the sheath, a poison coating from the sheath is not used. IE: you draw your blade (poisoned) and attack. poison does not effect target for whatever reason. you sheath the blade. you still have 9 coatings left in the sheath and your blade is still poisoned. you draw your blade (poisoned) and attack. poison effects target. you sheath the blade (poisoned again). you still have 8 coatings left in the sheath, and your blade is now poisoned again. (first sheath = -1 coating. second sheath = -1 coating. total coatings used on enemies = 1. 8 in the sheath, 1 on the weapon.) rolling a d% would take the same amount of time as rolling a fort save, and since you have to roll one or the other regardless, it doesnt take time away from determining if your target is successfully poisoned. I dont like the fort save rule because honestly, if i slip cyanide into Arnold "the govonator's" drink, he has the same chance of dying as someone who isnt huge and burly. Although, it might take more doses to poison a great big fat person to the same effect as one dose would poison someone who is small. Think of drinking beer. large people usually have a higher tolerance (assuming a fat person and a small person have no built up tolerance). So if i wanted to buy a sheath with "Bob's magical knock-out goop" in it, i would find out how much 1 dose of bobs goop (yes i know what this sounds like) normally costs, and i would multiply that cost by 10, since the sheath would have 10 doses. I would think that the DC saves for existing poisons stay the same, but to cut back on rolling time and keep things smooth, you'd need a way to determine if the big burly guy feels the full effect of the poison, or only a muted effect. my idea is this: Herman the brawler: +5 fort save. Larry the magical: +1 fort save. Both poisoned with Leeroy's poison of pain (DC 14). Injury, 1d8 damage. Ben the deadly ninja attacks them both with a poison dagger, and he lands both hits. he rolls a d% to see if they are poisoned (75% chance). ben rolls a 73% and a 42%. both are poisoned. (76-100% = poison fails to effect the victim. maybe the poison was made poorly or was too deluted of a dose) to see if they are effected full or muted (half effect / damage), they both take a 10 on their fort save and add their modifier. Herman = 15 vs DC 14 Larry = 11 vs DC 14 Herman takes muted poison damage. 1d4. Larry takes full poison damage. 1d8. In this method there is no extra rolling. you just swap the fort save rolls (which are now reduced to "take 10 + mod") for a d% roll. In real life, if you were to poison 100 people that weigh the same and are about the same age, hight, etc, with the same dose of poison, you would not see very much variation in the effects of the poison. in the game, if i have 30 constitution (+10) and i roll a 2 for my fort save, i only have a fort save of 12, which means almost every poison would effect me. if you are taking 10 on the fort save for poisons, its no longer about your body's random chance to fight off the poison or let it effect you, but rather now it focuses on the strength of the poison. I dont think it would be too far fetched either to give the sheath a way to "double up" poison doses on a blade. give two doses at once. for a double dose, add 1/2 the current DC to the DC. anyone whos fort save is failed by 10 or more feels double effects. heres the same scenario with a double dose: Normal Dose of Leeroy's poison of pain = DC 14 Double Dose of Leeroy's poison of pain = DC 14 + (14/2) = 21 (14+7) Herman the brawler: +5 fort save Larry the magical: +1 fort save. both take 10, giving them 15 and 11, respectfully. a double dose of Leeroy's poison of pain (DC 14) becomes (DC 21). Herman the brawler is effected normally and suffers 1d8 of damage (DC 21 - 15 = 6 point difference. failed save, but not double effects). Larry the nerd has a save of 11, and the DC is 21. not only does he fail his save, but he fails by 10 points, which means he takes double effects. 2d8 damage from the poison. Maybe Larry the nerd will go out and start beefing up a little, because poisons actually hurt him since he is weak and frail. This looks like a ton of stuff to remember, and everyone hates math, but there really arent that many poisons floating around that i know of. most of the DCs are even numbers, so adding up the double dose is a 2nd grade math equivalent. 18/2 = 9. 18+9 = 27. DC 27 for a double dose of DC 18 poison. Roll D% instead of Fort saves. 0-75% = poison effects target. Anyone who would roll a fort save just takes 10 instead. if their fort save beats the DC, they take half damage / effect (or whatever the DM decides). Doubling a dose makes it easier to poison larger targets successfully, and poisoning smaller targets yields more bang for your buck. Poison costs are x4 so its not exactly feasible to poison everyone all the time unless the player craps gold coins. if the player is dead rich or just abusing the more reliable poison effects, the DM can just say the poisons cant be purchased so the player has to make his own (buy materials. refine the poison, which takes a week and possibly no yielded doses for that week or lost materials. all the core rules for making poisons). Or the DM can restrict how much poison is purchased from a certain area, Increase suspicion of PC for mass poison purchases, or something of that nature. theres easy ways to keep things in check. and if worst comes to worst, someone steals the PC's poisoned weapon and uses it against the PC. a taste of their own medicine in the most literal sense. This is an untested system for poisons.