Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragonblade275 05-16-05, 04:31 PM	Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but... Just wondering, is there an official point buy for scores over 18? For example, using a 28 or 32 point buy (or more) how much would a 19 cost if it were allowed? I'm looking for an extended progressions of the point buy system in the Dungeon Master's Guide on page 169. I would want to see the cost for scores up to around 30 or 35. 17: 13 18: 16 19: ?? 20: ?? ??? Basically, this would be for a really high-powered campaign. Perhaps, for immortals that had lost their powers but still retained some divinity as far as ability scores go.
Dragonblade275 05-16-05, 04:54 PM	If there's not an official one, here's an unofficial one that I think might work. 19: 20 20: 24 21: 29 22: 34 23: 40 24: 46 25: 53 26: 60 27: 68 28: 76 29: 85 30: 94 Any thoughts?
Arcade 05-16-05, 05:47 PM	That's how I'd do it.
Dave Stebbins 05-16-05, 05:51 PM	Yup, that fits the progression above 14 perfectly. Up to 14 everything costs one more point. 15 and 16 cost two more points each. 17 and 18 cost three more points each. So, 19 and 20 would cost four more points each. and etc. -Dave pointing out the obvious (pun intended :D )
Dragonblade275 05-16-05, 06:27 PM	Thanks. I was mainly wondering about the progressions. I didn't know whether it should remain the same for every two points of ability score increase or whether it should eventually start increasing every point.
lostone 05-17-05, 08:48 AM	19: 20 20: 24 21: 29 22: 34 23: 40 24: 46 25: 53 26: 60 27: 68 28: 76 29: 85 30: 94 Exactly how I would do it if I wasn't a stickler for the "maximum 18 before modifiers" core rule. My players get their attributes high enough without making it easier. :D
Dragonblade275 05-17-05, 04:38 PM	Exactly how I would do it if I wasn't a stickler for the "maximum 18 before modifiers" core rule. My players get their attributes high enough without making it easier. :DThanks, Lostone. I haven't really decided whether or not to go through with the idea, yet, but knowing how to do it helps.
Dave Stebbins 05-17-05, 07:11 PM	Thanks. I was mainly wondering about the progressions. I didn't know whether it should remain the same for every two points of ability score increase or whether it should eventually start increasing every point. Since the bonus received is a steady progression, I don't see any reason to change the point cost progression, though you could easily justify doing so if you wanted too. After all, they are getting truly extraordinary scores, so they should pay extra points for them beyond the regular scale. -Dave
totoro 05-18-05, 04:19 PM	I use the proposed progression and give +1 pip per level (instead of +1 ability score every 4 levels). It works out that it is cheaper to raise abilities up to 18, but harder to get past 20. I like the progression, but high level characters tend to have a relatively even spread across abilities and never get as high as under the old rules. I also tried increasing ability scores by +2 pips / spell level, but it was too much book-keeping.
Dragonblade275 05-18-05, 06:07 PM	Since the bonus received is a steady progression, I don't see any reason to change the point cost progression, though you could easily justify doing so if you wanted too. After all, they are getting truly extraordinary scores, so they should pay extra points for them beyond the regular scale.I agree, Dave. Since bonuses really only increase at every other point of ability score gained, there's really not a reason to increase the progression any faster. I'm still giving this some thought. One thing I'm considering is how many points characters would have to spend on buying scores? 28 or 32 points wouldn't get you very high. I ran some numbers last night and even a 48 point build (using these costs) doesn't get into incredibly high scores. But, then again, I'm comparing this to the old system of rolling for scores that was in the AD&D Unearthed Arcana... 9d6 for the most important score, drop the lowest six dice, subtract 1 die and repeat until all scores are rolled. That system resulted in some characters that spoiled my friends and I with very high scores (even though none were over 18). Again, this is just an idea I'm toying with...
Dragonblade275 05-18-05, 06:08 PM	I use the proposed progression and give +1 pip per level (instead of +1 ability score every 4 levels). It works out that it is cheaper to raise abilities up to 18, but harder to get past 20. I like the progression, but high level characters tend to have a relatively even spread across abilities and never get as high as under the old rules. I also tried increasing ability scores by +2 pips / spell level, but it was too much book-keeping.I haven't the foggiest idea what you've written about, Totoro. Care to bring it down to my level?
Dave Stebbins 05-18-05, 07:43 PM	But, then again, I'm comparing this to the old system of rolling for scores that was in the AD&D Unearthed Arcana... 9d6 for the most important score, drop the lowest six dice, subtract 1 die and repeat until all scores are rolled. That system resulted in some characters that spoiled my friends and I with very high scores (even though none were over 18). One important thing to remember with this comparison is that, in older editions, you needed a score of 15 or better to get any bonus at all, whereas in 3e you start getting a bonus with a score of 12. Don't compare the direct scores, especially when you are used to having lots of scores in the 15+ range, compare the bonuses expected. If you are used to having characters with scores like 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13 you can get the same bonuses in 3e with scores of 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10, which would be a 40 point buy. The other thing to consider is that you get the free ability point at 4th level and every 4th level after that. If you consider the scores above a target at 12th level, you could reasonably expect PCs to start with 16, 15, 14, 12, 10, 10 which can be purchased with a 32 point buy. The other thing to consider is that the Challenge Rating system is geared towards PCs which are assumed to start with a 25 point buy. If you start with a 32 point buy, the conventional wisdom is that the PCs are about one level tougher than normal. Higher point buys can skew things more, which presents another problem. If you routinely have to use challenges a couple of levels higher than the party because of their high ability scores, you can run into creatures which assume certain abilities, saves, or spells which the party isn't high enough to have yet, so the encounter is a potential party-killer. The system is pretty well balanced for PCs that are lower powered, the more high-powered you start your PCs, the easier it is for encounters to end up either too easy or too hard. -Dave
Dragonblade275 05-18-05, 11:17 PM	One important thing to remember with this comparison is that, in older editions, you needed a score of 15 or better to get any bonus at all, whereas in 3e you start getting a bonus with a score of 12. Don't compare the direct scores, especially when you are used to having lots of scores in the 15+ range, compare the bonuses expected. If you are used to having characters with scores like 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13 you can get the same bonuses in 3e with scores of 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10, which would be a 40 point buy. The other thing to consider is that you get the free ability point at 4th level and every 4th level after that. If you consider the scores above a target at 12th level, you could reasonably expect PCs to start with 16, 15, 14, 12, 10, 10 which can be purchased with a 32 point buy. The other thing to consider is that the Challenge Rating system is geared towards PCs which are assumed to start with a 25 point buy. If you start with a 32 point buy, the conventional wisdom is that the PCs are about one level tougher than normal. Higher point buys can skew things more, which presents another problem. If you routinely have to use challenges a couple of levels higher than the party because of their high ability scores, you can run into creatures which assume certain abilities, saves, or spells which the party isn't high enough to have yet, so the encounter is a potential party-killer. The system is pretty well balanced for PCs that are lower powered, the more high-powered you start your PCs, the easier it is for encounters to end up either too easy or too hard.Thank you, Dave. That's good advice. Though I've been reading the Core rulebooks for 3E off and on for a couple of years, my experience playing it and running it is very low next to the time my friends and I have spent playing AD&D. We've only really decided to convert to 3.5 from AD&D this year. So, there's a lot to get used to. The ability score bonuses being different are just one of many anomalies. My best friend and most experienced player has difficulty considering an 16 in the new system to be what an 18 was in AD&D (judging by the +3 to hit from strength for an 18/00 in AD&D). Anyways... the scores that I had in mind would correspond with the scores from some of the greater deities in the AD&D Legends & Lore. The idea being that they had lost their power and were now first level (probably gestalt) characters with godly ability scores (I think something like this happened in the Forgotten Realms, but I never really followed the goings on the the Realms). The issue you raise concerning CR is noted. I over-estimated the ability of the group to tackle a 5th level orc barbarian and his raiding party a few weeks ago. Luckily, I was able to convert him into a lower level alternate that I'd created as a back-up in the middle of the encounter without the PC's realizing it. Otherwise, all the PC's would have been dead due to my poor CR planning (which I corrected through study of the appropriate sections of the DMG after the session). The thing that I realized was that in AD&D a fighter with an 18/00 strength (as the main warrior in the group tended to have despite the impossible odds) with double-weapon specialization from AD&D UA (completely different from and unrelated to two-weapon fighting) had a +6 to hit and +9 damage at first level (with multiple attacks every other round) which means that your average 1HD monster was dead in one hit. Now, a party of 1st level fighters has trouble with an hobgoblin lair (see the MM web enhancement). Needless to say, we were used to having first level fighters that could take on a horde of orcs/goblins/hobgoblins, etc... without magic weapons. Now, all that's changed... but that's all somewhat off-topic... I, also, appreciate your input about considering the effects of ability scores improving as characters gain levels, too. A tip I shall have to remember. After all, how high should the scores be at level XX is a question that needs to be considered. I do have to say that while there's a lot about AD&D that I liked, there's stuff about 3E that I like better. And being able to consider ideas like point buys beyond 18 and being able to try and guage the effect on play with CR's and the like is a real bonus. If a normal character is consdered to have a CR equal to his level (equipment and all things considered), how much does each point of ability scores above the elite array impact that CR? Thinking of it from an NPC perspective... what is an NPC worth that has scores of 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 12 compared to PC's using the elite array?
totoro 05-19-05, 01:38 AM	I haven't the foggiest idea what you've written about, Totoro. Care to bring it down to my level? Sorry. That *was* confusing. I was simply mentioning that the point buy system grants you a number of "pips" (that's what I call 'em) to spend on abilities. For example, you can play with a 28-point-buy, which gives you 28 pips. It costs 1 pip to raise an ability 1 point if the ability has less than a +2 bonus, and as many pips as the bonus if the bonus is +2 or higher. All RAW. Now if you give characters +1 ability point every 4 levels, they can increase any of the abilities for the same amount. Raising an 18 to 19 is just as easy as raising a 14 to 15. I use a house rule that replaces the +1 ability point every 4 levels with +1 pip every level. So, you can raise an ability every level if you want, so long as the ability is less than 14. It works out that if you want to raise an 18 to a 19 using this house rule, it takes just as long as RAW. I.e., if you have an 18 STR and reach 4th level, you can raise the 18 to a 19 under RAW; using my house rule, you would save up a pip every level until 4th (when you would have 4 pips), then raise your 18 to a 19. I play with a 30-point point buy +1/level. So, a 1st level character is a 31-point character. A 10th level character is a 40-point character. I noticed that in my games players tend to raise their abilities more broadly. Instead of going for a fighter with a 20 STR by 8th level, you get a figher with an 18 STR and 18 CON, for example.
Dragonblade275 05-19-05, 08:48 PM	Sorry. That *was* confusing.No problem. I re-read it a few times and just didn't get it.I was simply mentioning that the point buy system grants you a number of "pips" (that's what I call 'em) to spend on abilities. For example, you can play with a 28-point-buy, which gives you 28 pips. It costs 1 pip to raise an ability 1 point if the ability has less than a +2 bonus, and as many pips as the bonus if the bonus is +2 or higher. All RAW.OK, that REALLY helps. Thank you.Now if you give characters +1 ability point every 4 levels, they can increase any of the abilities for the same amount. Raising an 18 to 19 is just as easy as raising a 14 to 15.Very good point.I use a house rule that replaces the +1 ability point every 4 levels with +1 pip every level. So, you can raise an ability every level if you want, so long as the ability is less than 14. It works out that if you want to raise an 18 to a 19 using this house rule, it takes just as long as RAW. I.e., if you have an 18 STR and reach 4th level, you can raise the 18 to a 19 under RAW; using my house rule, you would save up a pip every level until 4th (when you would have 4 pips), then raise your 18 to a 19. I play with a 30-point point buy +1/level. So, a 1st level character is a 31-point character. A 10th level character is a 40-point character. I noticed that in my games players tend to raise their abilities more broadly. Instead of going for a fighter with a 20 STR by 8th level, you get a figher with an 18 STR and 18 CON, for example.I actually like this a lot, Totoro. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain. This is a wonderful idea. :cool:
RogerBacon 05-22-05, 05:33 PM	A related question on Point Buy. How many extra points would justify raising the character's equivilent level by 1? The reason I switched to point buy instead of rolls is that the players often had stats that were much beter than average which skewed all of the encounter levels. I'd still like players to have the option of having their super-high stats but I want to balance it by making their equivilent character level higher. Roger Bacon
totoro 05-22-05, 06:53 PM	A related question on Point Buy. How many extra points would justify raising the character's equivilent level by 1? The reason I switched to point buy instead of rolls is that the players often had stats that were much beter than average which skewed all of the encounter levels. I'd still like players to have the option of having their super-high stats but I want to balance it by making their equivilent character level higher. Roger Bacon I recommend reducing experience for monsters as if they were -1 CR for 32-point characters and -2 for 40-point characters. My players are experienced so they can usually handle this unless I really try to get 'em. As has been noted, the baseline character is 25 points (32 points is 7 points more). A fighter gets +1/2 fort, +1/3 ref, +1/3 will, +1 BAB, +1/2 feat, 2+INT mod skills, 5.5+CON mod hp. If you consider a +2 STR and +2 CON, that approximately matches the advantages for gaining a level at, say, 6th level. Not exactly, but a reasonably close estimate (34 point might be safer for a -1 CR to avoid killing off your characters at low level). You get diminishing returns for point buy (since it takes more and more points to raise your good scores), so you might say -2 CR for monsters if characters are worth 40 points (perhaps 45 point would be safer) each and -3 CR if characters are worth 50 points (perhaps 60 points would be safer) each. Note: it will end up that the characters have the wealth of characters one level (or 2, or 3) higher, too, because they are taking on tougher challenges, with commensurate rewards. Note 2: I don't think the scaling of monster difficulty works for 1st level characters. A 40-45 point first level group cannot hope to match a CR 5 monster (dumb DM syndrome aside), which would be 2 CR above the levels of the characters +2 shift for having 40 point characters. A 40-45 point 7th level group probably can take on a CR 11 monster, with difficulty. I would expect 40-45 point characters of 15th level to beat a CR 19 monster (though there is always risk).
Dave Stebbins 05-23-05, 06:00 PM	I recommend reducing experience for monsters as if they were -1 CR for 32-point characters and -2 for 40-point characters. I agree. 32 point buy is the figure I've seen most often for where the party is effectively about one level tougher than the default.
XrP-Leon 05-23-05, 10:41 PM	Tot, thanks for your house rule. I really like it. In fact, tommorow at 3 PM I will be starting a new campaign (as the DM) and, as always with new games, I will announce the house rules. You've just added one to my list.
totoro 05-23-05, 11:53 PM	Tot, thanks for your house rule. I really like it. In fact, tommorow at 3 PM I will be starting a new campaign (as the DM) and, as always with new games, I will announce the house rules. You've just added one to my list. Warms an old gamer's heart. :D