Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Verelor 08-22-05, 06:58 PM	Either the costs all need to be cut in half or all the save DC's need to be raised by 5, cause it's ridiculous.
Sinaz 08-22-05, 08:08 PM	Use iocane powder... get's those silly Sicilians everytime!
Lina_Inverse 08-22-05, 08:13 PM	there perfectly fine. they are non magic,and can be applied to weapons or via stealth.they are expensive and rather useless.but whens the last time youve seen a hero use or get poisoned? if they werent useless they would be overpowered.
Xeviat-DM 08-22-05, 08:22 PM	I think they should have indefinate durrations, like diseases, and only stop after two successful saves. A snake bite can kill, but not all snake bites kill in one minute (the time it would take to die of con damage from a snake bite dealing 1d6 con and 1d6 con). Skip (I believe) once suggested that the initial damage be, for example, 1d6 con, but the secondary damage be 1 con but be indefinate. I think that apothicaries should be able to distill their poisons to be more pure. Heros get poisoned occasionally, especially in "eastern" settings where "ninja" are common.
Inu 08-22-05, 10:27 PM	I think they should have indefinate durrations, like diseases, and only stop after two successful saves. A snake bite can kill, but not all snake bites kill in one minute (the time it would take to die of con damage from a snake bite dealing 1d6 con and 1d6 con). Skip (I believe) once suggested that the initial damage be, for example, 1d6 con, but the secondary damage be 1 con but be indefinate. I think that apothicaries should be able to distill their poisons to be more pure. Heros get poisoned occasionally, especially in "eastern" settings where "ninja" are common. I absolutely agree, with the notion that they be treated more like diseases. I run poisons with two separate systems, one for in combat and one outside. In combat, part of the save is 'did enough of the poison get into the wound to really afefct the person'. In that case, roll immediately and one minute after. If both saves are successful, then yay, poison stops there with no effect. If either fail, the poison may have taken hold. If both fail, the poison has taken hold. There is no immediate ill effect unless it's a very nasty (possibly magical) poison. If only one save is failed, then the poision may be gotten out of the system with a healing check. Otherwise, healing checks can only help treatment. Out of combat, if (say) the poison is introduced to the person via food or drink, then the saves are not to negate effects, but only to reduce them. In either case, once the poison has taken hold, yes, it's treated like a disease. Saves mitigate effects rather than negating them, and the poison must be allowed to run its course. I generally have a set number of saves the poison induces before it wears off; or a minimum number of saves, then the disease rules (X successful saves in a row means it stops). Otherwise, it might just keep forcing saves until the person dies or it's cured by antidote. The nastier poisons are like that - the person might stick around for days or weeks, but they won't get over it themselves. If the poison is magical, it might have a spell resistance, leading the PCs to have to seek out a specific cure, with a time limit. I also tend to have poisons drain multiple stats. Paralysis ones drain Str, generally, with a secondary Con drain. The Str drain might set in very quickly, paralysing the gross muscles, while the Con drain takes longer (paralysing lungs, for instance). This system does make combat poisons less useful. (Spells, like poison, still work in the same way. They're magic simulating poison, rather than true poison.) On the other hand, tactics can be adjusted. The giant spider might bite a few targets, then retreat. If the PCs have been bitten enough, they might not chase it. Then, once they're all STR downed, it comes back... to perhaps be slaughtered, if they have a cleric with enough neutralise poisons. Well, that's how they work in my world. :) Less useful in combat, more useful after combat. It makes my sense of verisimilitude happy.
Jarric 08-23-05, 06:02 PM	there perfectly fine. they are non magic,and can be applied to weapons or via stealth.they are expensive and rather useless.but whens the last time youve seen a hero use or get poisoned? if they werent useless they would be overpowered. My party used it recently. We had a rogue seek into a Thieves Guild and buy some poison (can't recall which). Left it a barrel of Dwarven Ale given to the fire giants who then gave it to their king. The king drank it and died. Gave us a good diversion to sneak in while the funeral was going on.
Lina_Inverse 08-23-05, 07:58 PM	My party used it recently. We had a rogue seek into a Thieves Guild and buy some poison (can't recall which). Left it a barrel of Dwarven Ale given to the fire giants who then gave it to their king. The king drank it and died. Gave us a good diversion to sneak in while the funeral was going on. you realize of course house rules do not count?because there is no poison in the game that can drain a fire giants con to 0.a fire giant has a 21 con,im sure there leader would have high.i dont think theres a poison that does 2d10 con damage.
Fargren 08-23-05, 10:25 PM	you realize of course house rules do not count?because there is no poison in the game that can drain a fire giants con to 0.a fire giant has a 21 con,im sure there leader would have high.i dont think theres a poison that does 2d10 con damage. I believe bigger multiple doses stack. So if the put a lot of posion, it would do a lot of damage. I could, however, be wrong.
Linkrulesx10 08-23-05, 11:40 PM	I always found poisons to be slightly useless which has stopped from playing something I really want to play. I think lowering the prices so you don't waste 1000 gp just because the bad guy rolled a 20
Lina_Inverse 08-24-05, 01:19 AM	I believe bigger multiple doses stack. So if the put a lot of posion, it would do a lot of damage. I could, however, be wrong. in wine.which means it gets diluted amoung all the drinkers.but youve got a point.but thats so much money as to be ridiculous.storming his castle would have been a far better use of resourses at those kinds of prices:P
NineInchNall 08-24-05, 03:07 AM	I refer you to the Character Optimization board, where you will see a thread detailing how to get 500 some standard actions in one round ... with a psion, I believe.
Fargren 08-24-05, 09:46 AM	I refer you to the Character Optimization board, where you will see a thread detailing how to get 500 some standard actions in one round ... with a psion, I believe. Actually, I've seen one get infinite actions and infinite power points in a round. Damn, synchornicity should be BANNED. How como ONE LVL 1 POWER MAKE A HOLE SYSTEM BROKEN!!!
Gilean 08-24-05, 11:22 AM	if they werent useless they would be overpowered.Elaborate, please? Why would making something balanced along with other methods of dealing damage make it imbalanced?
Calibron 08-24-05, 01:15 PM	Elaborate, please? Why would making something balanced along with other methods of dealing damage make it imbalanced? It isn't smashing things with your weapon or magic/psionics, everything else is evil and wrong and MUST BE BANNED NOW! DOWN WITH CREATIVITY!
Bane 08-24-05, 02:27 PM	I made a post quite a while ago where I detailed an idea for using Craft (Poisonmaking) to concentrate poisons. You needed several doses to be able to be able to make it more lethal (Higher DC), and you could only do it a couple times. Thus, something like six doses of Black Lotus Extract could be distilled into a Distillate of Black Lotus, and you would need six of those to make an Essence of Black Lotus. However, Essence of Black Lotus had a DC 30 save, and you got hit 3 times. This meant that it was expensive as hell (162,000 gp for the materials to craft one dose of Essence of Black Lotus, assuming nothing went wrong), but if you needed someone dead, 12d6 points of Con damage works very nicely. Also, if the poisons in the DMG are a little tame for you, you might look at the BoVD.
Jarric 08-24-05, 03:47 PM	in wine.which means it gets diluted amoung all the drinkers.but youve got a point.but thats so much money as to be ridiculous.storming his castle would have been a far better use of resourses at those kinds of prices:P I'm sorry, I correct myself. We did not put it in Ale. We used multiple prestigation spells to make it smell and taste like Ale.
IceFractal 08-24-05, 05:16 PM	Actually, there's a way to get around those ridiculously high costs, and it's pretty simple: Minor Creation. This 4th level spell will let you turn a drop of poison into at least 7 cubic feet of poison. Just buy one vial of the type you want, and turn it into gallons and gallons of the stuff. You've got to use it fairly soon, but that's not too bad as the spell only takes a minute to cast, leaving you plenty of time to dump your new gallons of poison into the nearest royal dinner. It only works for plant poisons, but Major Creation will do the same for any type of poison and is only a level higher. This could be a great spell for a Monk to use, as they're immune to poison past a certain level. Simply have your cohort cast this with something nasty, then slather the resulting poison onto yourself like it was sunscreen on a hot day. Anyone touching you, especially when grappling, is going to be feeling the hurt.
Verelor 08-24-05, 05:33 PM	Thanks, but I think ultimately we should all just lower the prices. Thousands of gold for a win or lose outcome is harsh, way harsh. It's not like most PC's use poison anyway (poisoning someone to kill them makes you the absolutely most dispicable wuss ever). Unless you've got a particularly grumpy nuetral rogue in the party or whatnot, it's mostly reserved for evil parties.
weasel fierce 08-25-05, 02:20 AM	Save or die ;)
Gilean 08-25-05, 02:09 PM	Thanks, but I think ultimately we should all just lower the prices. Thousands of gold for a win or lose outcome is harsh, way harsh. It's not like most PC's use poison anyway (poisoning someone to kill them makes you the absolutely most dispicable wuss ever). Unless you've got a particularly grumpy nuetral rogue in the party or whatnot, it's mostly reserved for evil parties.Do that, and create a PrC/feat chain which allows one to increase the DC or damage of poisons, similar to masterwork rules.
DarknessEternal 08-25-05, 04:22 PM	And here I thought the DC 30+ poisons out of BoVD were pretty dang useful. 36 is a reasonably difficult save to make. Or let's skip straight to the DC 50 one.
drakintana 08-25-05, 05:26 PM	Well, if your going to be using poisons then you are probably evil, or at the very least willing to go to some extremes. Also since you are a PC and most likely quite powerful just go and either kill the vendor of the poisons or just steal them from him. My group has done this, twice to the same vendor. :D
Verelor 08-25-05, 06:22 PM	How can you be so simpleminded? Killing or stealing from a shopkeeper is a far greater act of evil than even using a Book of Vile Darkness poison ever will be.
Melpomene 08-26-05, 05:40 PM	As a point of general advice, do not steal from or kill people who make poison. They tend have the sort of protection and loyal clientel who can ensure you a short and unhappy life.
Mula 08-27-05, 10:21 AM	This is what Sean K. Reynolds has suggested/offered on his website (www.seankreynolds.com):Continuing Damage for Poison In addition to the normal primary and secondary damage, poison continues to deal damage over an extended period of time. This continuing damage only occurs if the target fails one or both of the poison's saving throws (a character that succeeds at both saving throws suffers no additional damage from the poison). The poison's effects continue for a number of hours equal to the poison DC (if both saving throws are failed, the effects continue for 2x the poison's DC instead of just the DC). Every hour of the continuing effect, the character must attempt another saving throw against the poison's DC. Failure means the character suffers another point of ability damage of the type normally deals by the poison. If the poison deals one type of primary damage and one type of secondary damage (or deals two types of damage at the same type, as bloodroot does), the continuing damage is of the same type as the failed saving throw (primary or secondary). If the character failed both saving throws, the damage type alternates every hour (between the two types of damage) until the poison runs its full course (2x the DC in hours), starting with the primary damage (primary the first hour, secondary the second hour, primary the third hour, and so on). Example: Small centipede poison is DC 11 and deals 1d2 Dexterity damage for its primary and secondary effect. A character that fails a single save against this poison will have to make saving throws every hour for 11 hours, suffering 1 point of Dexterity damage each time one of these saves is failed. A character that fails both saves would make these checks every hour for 22 hours (DC 11 x 2). Poisons with a primary or secondary effect that does not deal ability damage do not deal continuing damage of that sort (the only continuing damage is ability damage). This means that poisons that deal no damage, hit point damage, cause unconsciousness, or other nonstandard effects do not require continuing saving throws. However, failing saves against the primary and secondary damage still causes the poison's continuing effects for twice the DC—but every other hour there is no effect from the poison (because that hour's damage would be from the nonstandard effect, which does not deal continuing damage). Example: Bloodroot is DC 12 and deals "0 damage" for its primary effect and 1d4 Con and 1d3 Wis for its secondary effect. A character that fails the first save but makes the second save does not suffer any continuing damage (the "0 damage" of the primary effect does not recur). A character that makes the first save and fails the second save must save every hour for 12 hours, suffering either 1 Con or 1 Wis (alternating each time between the two types of damage dealt by the poison's secondary damage) for each continuing save failed. A character that fails the primary and secondary saves must save every hour for 24 hours (DC 12 x2), with every other hour's save made to avoid taking 1 Con or 1 Wis (from the secondary effect); every other hour would be damage from the "0 damage" primary damage of the poison, which does not recur, so the net effect is a saving throw every two hours for the poison's continuing duration (24 hours). Delay poison suspends all of this continuing damage for the duration of the spell, just as it suspends primary and secondary damage. Neutralize poison ends the cycle of continuing damage (the character does not need to make any more saving throws against the poison). A character with the Heal skill can use it to aid someone's saving throws against continuing damage just as it can help with primary and secondary damage saves. So this means that snake poison (either DC 11 or DC 13) continues for 22 or 26 hours (if one or both saves are failed), and has the potential to deal another 22 or 26 points of Con damage over time. This makes snake poison likely to kill normal people (assuming a 50% save rate and dealing an additional 11 or 13 points of Con damage over the course of the poison), but someone with a decent Heal check (even 1 rank in Heal, taking 10 each time) means the person automatically makes the saves and can save a person from death by continuing snake poison damage. So if you're bitten, get medical attention!
Verelor 08-27-05, 10:57 AM	Whoa, this is nice, quite decent, and even more realistic, but I think it's a little too much bookkeeping compared to simply halving the prices. I think my players would get mad if I threw any more game mechanics into our already rules-heavy games.
Lina_Inverse 08-27-05, 10:06 PM	Elaborate, please? Why would making something balanced along with other methods of dealing damage make it imbalanced? poisons arent very heroic,are ussually a stealth tactic and do ability damage.ill go over both parts seperately. heroic)lets face its not as heroic to poison someone and then kill them.and D&D is a game about heroic fantasy,poison is outside the genre when pcs use it,though a great thing for npcs to use to prove how dishonorable and eeevvviiilll they are. stealth)there are two superior forms of combat by definition of what they are,range and stealth.therefore for a game to be balenced the option of run up and hack someone,that or your innately punishing concepts such as master swordsman or the entire monk class.thus by definition stealth and range must be subpar compared to melee simply by virtue of there inherent undeniable advanteges. ability damage)this does barely anything to monsters by nature of the fact they are in one encounter and then gone from the game.pcs however actully have to worry about healing up,and -4 str is -4 strengh to all there encounters for a day not just the one they were in. I'm sorry, I correct myself. We did not put it in Ale. We used multiple prestigation spells to make it smell and taste like Ale. ah yes that most DEFINIATLY works.i was thinking you just poisoned barrels of wine,thats a whole nother can of worms.
Gilean 08-28-05, 10:17 AM	heroic)lets face its not as heroic to poison someone and then kill them.and D&D is a game about heroic fantasy,poison is outside the genre when pcs use it,though a great thing for npcs to use to prove how dishonorable and eeevvviiilll they are.So, because poisons aren't heroic, even NPCs must be punished for using them, as is done by high prices?stealth)there are two superior forms of combat by definition of what they are,range and stealth.therefore for a game to be balenced the option of run up and hack someone,that or your innately punishing concepts such as master swordsman or the entire monk class.thus by definition stealth and range must be subpar compared to melee simply by virtue of there inherent undeniable advanteges.Poisons can be used quite effectively in combat, by applying them to a blade.ability damage)this does barely anything to monsters by nature of the fact they are in one encounter and then gone from the game.pcs however actully have to worry about healing up,and -4 str is -4 strengh to all there encounters for a day not just the one they were in.Ability damage always hurts. 2 points of con damage effectively cause target damage equal to target's HD. And dexterity damage, when massed, would be very effective against dragons.
Verelor 08-28-05, 11:52 AM	Applied poisons and Contact poisons are perfectly viable in a combat situation. Inhaled poisons may also be if the poisoner takes care not to afflict hisself. Ingested poisons are basically rogue's work and aren't too useful in a more hack'n'slash game. LG and NG characters in my campaign universe generally refuse to use them unless in desperation (CG characters may see the how the benefit of these things ultimitely overpowers any evil). I think I'll go with the biblical view of the topic as well: "Suffer not a poisoner to live".
Lina_Inverse 08-28-05, 01:02 PM	So, because poisons aren't heroic, even NPCs must be punished for using them, as is done by high prices? craft(poison) reduces the cost to 1/3 for the npcs by the rules.meaning you can give the assasain 3x the naughtyness for a few skillpoints. Poisons can be used quite effectively in combat, by applying them to a blade. extra stacking buff!that cant be dispeled(HUGE!)! Ability damage always hurts. 2 points of con damage effectively cause target damage equal to target's HD. And dexterity damage, when massed, would be very effective against dragons. 2 con hurts pcs MUCH MUCH MORE.thats the thing,it may hurt npcs but not anywhere near as much.this is why there arent rules for hacking off limbs.npcs exist for one encounter,pcs for hundreds. actully the dcs on poisons arent bad at low levels,but by mid-high levels it becomes a problem.however is this that bad?mid high levels PCs can take down small armys,should poison be some sort of super equalizer? hmmm perhaps thats the problem,people expect poison to be the kind of threat it is in real life?whereas mid level charecters can survive cruise missile attacks......but poison should be a threat....k..... ooo right i forgot to mention if they printed high level poison the damage would be expected to go up with the DC,which would make them crazy broke as stats dont go up like hp does.
Rogue Newb 08-28-05, 01:18 PM	actually adding a new dimension means that PCs will need to be on there toes that extra amount of time that they would normally be lounging about drinking coladas.
Gilean 08-28-05, 01:26 PM	craft(poison) reduces the cost to 1/3 for the npcs by the rules.meaning you can give the assasain 3x the naughtyness for a few skillpoints.And players can take it, too.extra stacking buff!that cant be dispeled(HUGE!)!Expensive, a chence of poisoning oneself, takes multiple actions to use (take the container, open it, apply to blade), only one effect/dose...2 con hurts pcs MUCH MUCH MORE.thats the thing,it may hurt npcs but not anywhere near as much.this is why there arent rules for hacking off limbs.npcs exist for one encounter,pcs for hundreds.See: Sudden metamagic. Metabreath feats. Both are very legitimate ways of overpowering NPCs, even without trying (especially the sudden things). Also, see everything with limited number of uses per day. All of that helps NPCs more than PCs. And you are not crying overpowered at them.actully the dcs on poisons arent bad at low levels,but by mid-high levels it becomes a problem.however is this that bad?mid high levels PCs can take down small armys,should poison be some sort of super equalizer? hmmm perhaps thats the problem,people expect poison to be the kind of threat it is in real life?whereas mid level charecters can survive cruise missile attacks......but poison should be a threat....k.....Actually, they are quite sad at low levels, too. Save for black lotus and dragon bile. For example, if we take a sample character called Bob the commoner. He has +0 fortitude and 11 constitution. He is struck by poison with 3d6 initial and secondary damage, and 11 DC. One would assume this to be deadly. Let us do some math, then. Chance of succeeding at the save is 1/2. Chance of being killed is 1/2. So change of being instantly slain is 1/4. Though if any damage is taken, the chance of being killed by secondary damage is greatly enhanced. I won't calculate it now (I can, if you are interested. It only takes a bit of time.), but let us assume that the certainty of dying by secondary damage in such a condition is 4/5. If the first save is made, chance of dying from the second one is 1/2, again. Assuming no anditidotes, healing checks, spells, etc. The total chance of dying from this poison is, with numbers given, is around 27/40 (I am tired, some misclaculations might have happened. Tell, and I'll correct it). Quite small, looking at the damage. In other words, poisons are quite inefficient at what they do, even against commoners. Not to talk about restoration, and variations therof. Not preparing a single lesser restoration/heal is quite dumb, in fact.